She Sells Sanctuary, (tips please)

[rnolan]

So the drummer really wants us to play She Sells Sanctuary (The Cult) so I thought I'd throw it out to you guys (particularly Harley (the master off fx and tones)), for suggestions.  Noting that we are one guitar (me - M-2, Midiverb 4)).

So it seems (and I haven't tried yet) the guitar has a bit of flange, chorus and delay (delay time suggestions welcome) and obviously some reverb on the whole thing.

I'm sure I can get close to a reasonable sound fairly easily but I'd like to do it justice (if you know what I mean).

[Harley Hexxe]

Richard,

   I just gave the tune a listen and I'm picking up the same thing you're hearing, almost.

   The delay seems to be a modulated delay which is why it almost sounds like a chorus effect. The fact that it's very subdued tells me it's delay modulation. The delay time seems to be in the 420-450ms range, and it's a ducked delay during the verse, then switches to a digital delay in between.

   The flange in the bridge of the song has a decent amount of depth and a sweep rate in the range of .3 -.4.

  As for the tone, I think a mild overdrive should do it with a bright sounding guitar.

By the way, there is only one guitar in the Cult

[rnolan]

Hey Harley, great tips, thanks very helpful.  While there's only one guitar I think he's done a couple of tracks for the recording (how unusual LoL). We used to play Lil' Devil in a previous band where he played under the solo.
I'm going to experiment with getting our singer/keyboard player to play some of the note runs so I can chug under it, though it may not work as they are very "guitar" sounds. And while I've managed to get her to play some guitar(ish) like chords under some of my solos, chugging is not so easy on keys.

Interestingly, I have reverted to 3 or 4 sounds these days (simplify).  Time to open back up a bit and program some effects etc. like the old days.  I'd been contemplating having a flange patch so this gives that idea more impetus.  I had a nice one back in my MP-1 days.

Yeah I wondered if it was chorus but I think you are right, modulated delay makes sense and 420-450ms gives me a good starting point .

BTW what's a ducked delay?

An old anecdote, apparently he was nominated for worst solo of the year (ages ago) for Wild Flower.  Which I thought was a bit unfair.

[Harley Hexxe]

Richard,

A ducked delay is one that ducks out of the mix when you are playing, and comes into the mix when you stop playing.

Yes, those settings are just a starting off point that should get you close. you can tweak to your liking.

[Dante]

Playing covers for over 25 years,  some songs just won't go away...this is one of them I'd never envisioned I'd be playing 20 years later

I've always just used a chorus and a quick delay that matches the tempo,  or works within the tempo

I don't get too caught up in matching the tone precisely,  just get it close enough for the drunks yelling Freebird after every song

Besides, is your singer REALLY emulating his inner Ian Astbury while playing that song? Probably not, but it's close enough for who it's for

BTW: I can manage a 2 hour set of U2 songs with only 4 delays.....not bragging, just pointing out that it doesn't take as much as you think sometimes

[rnolan]

Hey Dante, I hear you and I'll end up doing much the same I suspect (as I always do, pick out what's important).  But your & Harleys tips are handy (for me) as for the first time in quite a while I've decided to do a few patches with more (focused) Fx.  So a flange will be handy for a bunch of things, and Harleys delay ball parks are also a good place to start.

As you say our singer (a her) doesn't even know who Ian Astbury is (she's 23) but hopefully she can do a decent job (I have faith).

Personally I'd prefer to play Lil' Devil, but this one (which I quite like also) floats our drummers boat and he was remonstrating that none of his choices were making it into the set (you know how it is I suspect).  Hey it's not a particularly difficult song, I'll try to make him happy LoL.

[Dante]

It's very recognizable. A flange or chorus should work fine.

I like Wildflower, but nobody's ever heard it. Love playing it

[Harley Hexxe]

I used to play Wildflower with one of the bands I was in, that's a fun song to play.

[rnolan]

I've got a long history with Wild Flower.  It's the first Cult song I heard.  I went to see a young band playing at a youth centre, as I was walking up outside they were belting it out and I was hooked.  Ended up making a band with 3 of them (Debbie Does) and that was in the set.

[rnolan]

Update, Harley, you were on the money, 420ms is perfect.  So I dialled up a flange, delay, reverb configuration in my midiverb4 and it's doing ok.  It's the first time I've programmed a patch in the MV4 I just used a default del/rev, previously I'd used my Quadverb for specific Fx.  My original QV is way better and versatile  , I think I want a new multi Fx unit... e.g. you have to use a preset configuration (they can't be changed), so if you choose (as I did) flange, delay, reverb (pretty standard ), you can't change the reverb, it's room only.  I wanted a plate ( ).  If I want to use a plate reverb, that's all I can have.  So the plate must use all the processor power etc.  Anyway, a bit frustrating, I haven't bothered with Fx patches for quite a while, now I'm needing to.

But thanks for the tips guys

[Harley Hexxe]

Richard,

I'm glad it worked out. It sounded like it was timed around 400-420ms. A very common delay time in mid-tempo songs.

It sounds like your MV4 is a similar thing to my el-cheapo Lexicon MPX 110. Select effects groups, but little if any editing. That's why I like to use it for vocals. Generic common settings that have been around for ages.

[rnolan]

Hey Harley, I think you are right.  I was thinking MV4 being a much later unit would just improve on the original QV.  But it seems they have made it more simple with generic groupings.  I don't mind that so much but, from the QV I'm used to being able to select different types of the various Fx within the grouping (also create my own groupings).  E.g. stereo delay or mono or ping pong, and different reverbs room or plate or hall etc.  I was a bit miffed when I dial up the flange/delay/reverb and they were all set (flange, mono delay, room reverb) and not adjustable.  In the QV, you can change all that and also what each input source is and where the output goes etc.  It's really flexible.

I inherited the MV4 with a MP-2 I bought and I'd never programmed it before the other day except to set in/out levels (don't use it's auto feature to do this   and why I now set them manually), and mapping midi program changes.  The standard stereo delay + room reverb was fine and I used (mapped it) on all my patches.  I tripped over the MV4 plate reverb the other day and it's really nice, but you can't have any other Fx with it .

So now I'm thinking about swapping out the B200s for the 1 RU Carvin DCM200L (to free up 1 RU), and using something else to do delays (maybe my SPX 90?).

Or I need to buy a new 1 RU Fx processor that does 3 Fx but with more options. But what, that's a rabbit hole LoL

Or I could move my QV from my old 8RU live rack into it as I'm not really using that rack much for guitar, it's got a MP-2 and MB-1 in it so the bass player uses the MB-1 at rehearsals (in my lounge room).

[Harley Hexxe]

Richard,

Here's another option for you that would work well with the MP-2:

Have you considered a small multi-effects unit in the loop of the MP-2 like the NUX Cereus?

I think it's an affordable pedal platform that has a lot of potential. I has OD, Dist., Modulation, Delay and Reverb effects. It's programmable and can store up to 128 programmed presets, and it also has MIDI. It can be used in 4CM mode, and has very decent quality effects. It also has a very small footprint for what it is. It would be a great pedal with any good sounding amplifier even through the front of it.
It's affordable because it's Chinese-ium, but surprisingly good sounding.
I'll give you a light overview of the effects.
OD - a decent reproduction of a Bluesbreaker
Distortion - a reproduction of the JHS Angry Charlie
Modulation - Three chorus types from Boss CE, SC, and ST, and Tremolo, Phaser, and Univibe.
Delay/Reverb - Delays- 60s (tape), 70s (analogue), 80s (digital), Reverbs - Spring, Plate, Hall.
 Editing on all effects are rotary controls with values displayed on the screen. You can run delays into reverbs, or the other way around, or even run them parallel. You can also re-route the signal path of the OD and Distortion in the same way.
There is also a clean boost built into it.
There is also editing software you can download for free, and it makes creating preset patches a breeze. Oh, I almost forgot, you can swap out one of the existing reverbs for a shimmer reverb if you want through the editor.
It's a pretty powerful unit for the size and price, maybe you might look into it.

[rnolan]

Hey Harley, looks like a nice unit .  It would be perfect for my '73 Marshall and probably bring that Blackstar 45 (sitting in my hallway) alive (neither of which I'm wanting to use live, hey I have a MP-2 rig).  I need a rack device, the only pedal I want is a phantom powered midi switcher (i.e. my ADA MXC).  I'd like to get a Lexicon (just for the lush reverbs) but the newer ones are a bit limited (only 2 Fx IIRC).

So I currently have:
TC MOne XL (all in/outs XLR) and does 2 Fxs (currently in my studio rack) nice unit but the TC stuff is a little sterile sounding (which makes the GMajor variant not as apealing).
Original Quadverb, great unit but early AD/DA, in my older 8RU live rack
Midiverb4 currently in my 4 RU live rack (it's ok ish but lacks versatility)
SPX90, this is in the PA rack, mostly for live drums (which I don't need currently) but I use it for vox Fx. It's a one trick pony, great in the day and very good for snare reverbs.
Digitech IPS33 Smart shift, this is currently in a box doing nothing.  To integrate it I would need to go back to using a small mixer with at least 3 sends (as I have in the 8RU rack) as it's mono in A/B out.

I like what the NUX has to offer, but I have no interest in the OD stuff (hey I have a MP-2) but the Fx seem like they would be useful (but no flange or pitch shift).

[Harley Hexxe]

Richard,

I hear you and I was simply offering an alternative to another piece of rack gear.

You can't go wrong with Lexicon reverbs, there's nothing better IMHO. If you're dead-set on something like that, then I would suggest you look for a used MPX-1. That can use as many as five effects at once, but it's a bit of a tricky devil to set up and get going. Maybe even a used LXP-15, or LXP-15II. Those are easier to edit and get going with, and you get all the Lexicon reverbs too.

I had an IPS -33 a long time ago, but that is a pitch shifter, not a multi-effects unit. Its counterpart would be the DSP-128, and that would give you up to three effects at once. I had one of those too. I can't recall what the plate reverbs were like in that one because I didn't use that very much, but I do know it had a great sounding hall reverb that I used a lot. No too hard to edit and set up either. You could probably pick up one of those super cheap.