Lexicon MPX G2 / R1 with Ada MP1 - help with MIDI

[gb]

Thanks guys

I found the above quite useful. I think I have the concepts down to some point and now its just applying it

I found the below links also helpfull

http://www.stecrecords.com/?RecordId=513

http://musicplayers.com/tutorials/guitars/2006/0306_MIDIFootControllers.php#programming


From what i see the R1 configures 'setups' which can contain multiple midi msgs on mulitple channels which is what i want.. . I had a crack at it..didnt get very far but starting to understand the layout. I was too tired from work (looking for a new one!) to pursue with it so ill keep at it.

[MarshallJMP]

That pedal is so complicated, but hell all lexicon stuff is.I still don't understand everything in my MPX-1.

[Harley Hexxe]

That pedal is so complicated, but hell all lexicon stuff is.I still don't understand everything in my MPX-1.

+1

    I do understand how to set up things in the MPX-1. I had to figure that out to get to the useful effects that are in it. It took me a while to get the program "chains" together to access the programs that go beyond the 128 numbers. That's just a Lexicon term for internal mapping.

[gb]

That pedal is so complicated, but hell all lexicon stuff is.I still don't understand everything in my MPX-1.

Haha yes im discovering this. What hope do i have if the gurus find it complicated! !! Haha all good. Looks very configurable. Ill only use a small yet powerful part of it. I have a midi mate but i like the size of the r1 and eveything is built in..includes relay switching etc. And already setup to adjust effects on the fly. . So really just need to see how i can incorporate mp1 patches in the mix.

Im trying to work out if i can simply just reassign switches to give me bank up and down on the mp1 but still retain g2 effects buttons. Ill keep reading and trying.

[Harley Hexxe]

Hey GB,

    There you go don't give up. IF you get stumped on some of the terminology that Lexicon uses, give me a shout. I've become somewhat familiar the way they do things in the MPX-1, and if worse comes to worse, I'l get my manual out and between the two of us, we should be able to sort it all out.

    Harley 8)

[rnolan]

In many ways it's quite straight forward, it's complicated because it's so configurable (and while most gadgets support midi, they do it in their own way (as in where (and what/how) you can change), so you have to decide what you want to do and then the best (easiest for you, and the particular gadgets you have) way to set it up.
One complication here is the R1 was fundamentally designed to work with the G2 (so that bit's probably easy ? and aspects of it G2 specific ?), but it can also do other midi stuff..(or does that come from the G2?). As opposed to say a FCB1010 or Ground Control which are midi controller pedals (with a strong guitar orientated bent, they exist to control midi guitar rigs in a highly configurable way).
And Lest we forget where midi came from and the sequencing programs for the Atari (Creator, Notator, QBase) where we used the PC to record and play the drum machine and keyboard etc.  And this is when it was essential to have each device on its own midi channel (Alesis drum machine on ch 1, KorgM1 keyboard on ch 2 etc).  And as Harley says, it's also handy to have each midi device assigned its own midi channel, particularly if you have quite a few and want them to do specific things.  But Harley is driving it from his ground control, a midi controller pedal, which is being a cut back version of what the Atari computers (with sequencing programs) did (my ADA MXC is an even more cut back version).
There's also allot of overlap, you can configure things in various places and achieve the same result. So you have to decide where is best to do it for your setup.

So first thing is define exactly what you want to do ie I want MP1 patch xx and G2 patch yy etc.

[Harley Hexxe]

Hey Richard,

    From what I'm understanding about the R1, is that is is similar to the Ground Control in the respect that it can also control MIDI devices on separate channels like the Ground Control. At least, that's the impression I'm getting, and that would make it handy to assign specific program change commands to each device. That Ground Control and the MXC/Quad/CCP setup, are basically the same things, with the Ground Control having the added features of being able to assign MIDI program change commands to independent channels vs, just sending commands on one channel, and it can also be programmed to compensate for the difference in MIDI program tables from different manufacturer's, (0-127/1-128), so you're always sending the correct command to each device. It also controls up to four GCX Loop Switchers, but that is done internally, and has nothing to do with MIDI. So they are essentially the same in that respect.
   I looked into the MPX-G2 when it came out and decided I didn't need anything like that personally, because my understanding of it is that it is basically the MPX-1 with an added pre-amp section for tone shaping the guitar, so it can give your guitar the basic clean/overdrive/distortion tones into the front of the signal path before adding the MPX-1 multi-effects at the end of it. Since I already owned the MPX-1, and I already had all of the ADA preamps, which is where my tones come from, I passed it by. I use the ADA's because I wanted to eliminate the need for overdrive/distortion pedals.
    The way Lexicon structures the signal paths within these units is where things can get a bit tricky, and that's where editing can be a pain in the a$$, because it 's easy to get confused. They give you a lot of parameters to work with, and you have to mentally keep track of which section you are actually trying to edit, or you end up with something you don't want. I found it very helpful to focus on one section at a time with the Lexicon gear just to simplify the editing sessions.
    The other thing about the Lexicon gear from that period, is that you have 250 memory locations for saving effects configurations, but with MIDI, you can only access 128 of them. (In the case of Lexicon 0-127). This is where the Program Chains comes into play with the Lexicon gear. Essentially, this is an internal mapping feature in the Lexicon, that lets you access the programs that are stored in the locations above 128 in the device memory. The way they do it is to let you program up to 10 effect locations in a "Chain" and these can be assigned in a bank that you can use your MIDI controller to access them with. That's where things get a little crazy with Lexicon. If they didn't have such great sounding Reverbs, I would have walked away from that whole mess! 

    Lexicon does have some of the most pristine Reverbs with transparent delays that I've ever heard in any applications, and their 480 Prime Flange, (taken from the 480 LARC), is out of this world. Too bad I could never afford one of those, at $15,000.00 I'd be a producer, not a guitar player!

Harley 8)

[GuitarBuilder]

That pedal is so complicated, but hell all lexicon stuff is.I still don't understand everything in my MPX-1.

Haha yes im discovering this. What hope do i have if the gurus find it complicated! !! Haha all good. Looks very configurable. Ill only use a small yet powerful part of it. I have a midi mate but i like the size of the r1 and eveything is built in..includes relay switching etc. And already setup to adjust effects on the fly. . So really just need to see how i can incorporate mp1 patches in the mix.

Im trying to work out if i can simply just reassign switches to give me bank up and down on the mp1 but still retain g2 effects buttons. Ill keep reading and trying.

Have you looked at pages 6-1 through 6-4 of the R1 manual?  Try creating one setup as described there, using one MIDI channel for the G2 and another for the MP-1.

[gb]

Great info and discussion. Thanks guys

Rnolan.. as harley has mentioned. The R1 is similar to the ground control.  Can be configured to do multiple things

Guitarbuilder. Yes this is where im reading and has an example in there tho unclear on a few things so i might post a few things im unclear with for you guys to help with. I think once i can master this example i will be good to go

[Harley Hexxe]

Great info and discussion. Thanks guys

Rnolan.. as harley has mentioned. The R1 is similar to the ground control.  Can be configured to do multiple things

Guitarbuilder. Yes this is where im reading and has an example in there tho unclear on a few things so i might post a few things im unclear with for you guys to help with. I think once i can master this example i will be good to go

Just give the word, I'm always happy to help in any way I can.

[gb]

Great info and discussion. Thanks guys

Rnolan.. as harley has mentioned. The R1 is similar to the ground control.  Can be configured to do multiple things

Guitarbuilder. Yes this is where im reading and has an example in there tho unclear on a few things so i might post a few things im unclear with for you guys to help with. I think once i can master this example i will be good to go

Just give the word, I'm always happy to help in any way I can.

Thank you (and all) .. you may regret that offer haha.

Time is limitted at the moment so let me try going through chapter 6 again and let the questions begin!

[Harley Hexxe]

Thank you (and all) .. you may regret that offer haha.

Time is limitted at the moment so let me try going through chapter 6 again and let the questions begin!

   Not at all...I'll get my MPX-1 manual out tomorrow and re-read about the program structure. It would only serve to strengthen my understanding of it even better. There just may be a few things that differ between that and the G2, but should be basically the same.

[gb]

rough day at work today, hope everyones day was better and at least doing this  :headbanger: before i go to sleep i thought i would post a quick update.

Ok some success!!! starting to understand what the terminology is referring to eg. program change vs a bank change.

So I was able to change the "mode" of the R1 for Setups. Im on mode 5 now but From what i understand the mode is how the foot controller operates.

Here are the modes, i wonder if anyone can just dumb it down a little for me as im getting confused between the differences:

A Setup consists of as many as 8 MIDI Program Change messages, 16
Controller On/Off messages, 1 Song Select message and 1 relay state. The
MPX R1 can be programmed with as many as 100 Setups.

To activate Setups or Direct Device Control from Program mode you must select
4, 5 or 6 as a setting for the PL (Program Load) parameter in Edit mode. This
parameter allows you to select one of the following six options as a master mode
for program load behavior:
1 Banks
2 Direct Access
3 Banks/Direct Access
4 Banks/Direct Device  ------ i think when i selected this mode by playing around it meant i could directly recall a preset from the ADA or G2
5 Setups/Direct Access
6 Setups/Direct Device


4 Banks/Direct Device uses the standard bank loading scheme on a single
MIDI channel selected in Edit Program Mode. Pressing and holding the FX
button (from either Program or FX Mode) until the LED blinks and d-d flashes
on the MPX R1 display activates Direct Device Control. Pressing FX again
reverts to the standard bank loading scheme.
5 Setups/Direct Access activates Setup Mode. In this mode, all MIDI Program
Changes are transmitted within Setups. Pressing and holding the FX button
takes you into a version of Direct Access Mode which gives you direct access
only to Setup load. Pressing FX again reverts to Setup Mode.
6 Setups/Direct Device activates Setup Mode. In this mode, all MIDI Program
Changes are transmitted within Setups. Pressing and holding the FX button
(from either Program or FX Mode) until the LED blinks and d-d flashes on the
R1 display activates Direct Device Mode. Pressing FX again reverts to Setup
Mode.




I was then able to configure a program where by button 1 on the footpedal talks to midi channel 2 (ADA MP1) and send bank change (preset 127 as an example). YAY!

initially i had programmed to send bank message 127 and it kept changing to the wrong number (like 27 and not 127). i was getting confused with the setup parameters where it asks for Programs per bank for the target device. I didnt understand what this meant so i played around and set it to 128 (ada mp1 has 128 presets) and it worked. by default was set at 100.

Anyway its a start.. and when i hit the fx button i have access to all the effects loaded on the G2 preset (still sitting at 36). I can turn any of them on or off which is exactly what i wanted to be able to do.

Now i have only achieved in setting up Program 1 on button 1 to change the ADA preset. I still havent understood or worked out how do i also change the G2 preset in that one setup or program.

Im close though. It says it can configure multiple messages on multiple channels im just not yet comprehending how thats done just yet.

This is what i want to do (or operate when on stage):

First Song:
Press button 1 (program 1) which switches to clean ada preset #123 on midi channel 2 and G2 effects patch #36 on midi channel 1
From there as im playing a song i can push the Fx button which changes the foot controller in FX mode and i can press on or off what effects i want thats loaded in the patch .. for whatever reason .. maybe i dont want reverb on  .. OR maybe i want to engage the built in wah or something mid song.

Now in the middle of the song is a guitar solo.
Press button 2 for Lead "Program" which will then switch to lead gain preset #125 on ada and maybe for this program stay with the same G2 preset #36  but could be whatever effects patch. (thats a whole other mine field of possibilities lol)

then solo over. i switch back to program button 1 for clean.

It could be that each program is a specific sound (relating to a song or band). Eg if im doing covers. Program 1 could be ACDC (crunch ada preset with reverb only patch). Program 2 could be 80s hair band lead. Program 3 could be 80s hair band clean with chorus etc.

So anyway Im half way there. Making sense now. I will play again with it during the week to see HOW i get a second midi message in the 1 program.

Im sure its just knowing what the term is called so i can reference it in the manual. i couldnt see it specifically under chap 6 even though thats the chapter for multiple midi messages on different channels.

Thanks guys!

[rnolan]

Hey Harley, thanks for the explanation, really helped  , and I agree with you about Lexicon reverbs, they are just the best I've ever heard...

[Harley Hexxe]

Hi gb,

   Okay, let me first try to explain what you're looking at with reference to  Setups and Banks.

  A set of parameters from your System Mode, including Audio parameters, Modes, MIDI, and your current Database Sorting method are collectively called "Setups." Somewhere in your manual, there should be a table that shows you what the default Setup is from the factory. It's all internal system settings for your G2. You'll have to become very familiar with your G2 to edit these settings, but most of them you probably won't use. You will probably use the Controller setting in there when you are programming your foot pedals for Continuous Control, and you may need to adjust your Program Change in MIDI, but it should already be set to "On" with pgm+ and pgm- set to "Off."
   IF your G2 is like my MPX-1, then it has 3 internal Banks to access all the programs stored in it, (meaning if you have 250 program locations in your G2).
   The Program memory is organized into 3 banks as follows:

    Program Bank 1 - Preset programs 1-100
    Program Bank 2 - Preset programs 101-200
    Program Bank 2 - User programs 201-250

   If Lexicon is consistent with the G2 and the MPX-1 then Controller 32 is used to select the banks.
   There should also be three 128 element MIDI maps stored internally. Program Change 0-127 can be mapped to any program. When your G2 was shipped, it should have been loaded with the following defaults:

                            Map 1,2,or 3
                          MIDI 1 = Program 1
                       MIDI 128 = Program 128
       Pgm+ and Pgm- will load the next higher or lower program in the map.

   When you were trying to access program 127, you were in Bank 1 which is why it didn't recognize the "1" in front of the 27. You somehow managed to switch to Bank 2 which then allowed you to to go above program 100. It sounds to me like the R1 has these Banks in it's internal memory.
   To program for transmitting on different MIDI channels, I believe you'll have to go into the setup mode in the R1 and configure which channels you want to transmit on. It should give you these options in the R1 manual. Then you should theoretically, have your MIDI cables plugged in as follows: R1 MIDI Out--> to MPX G2 MIDI In. MPX G2 MIDI Thru-->to ADA MIDI In. Both devices should respond to MIDI commands from the R1 on their respective channels. Just be sure you set each device to the correct MIDI channel you assign on the R1.
   Now, I've never used the R1, or even read the manual on it, but since it allows you to transmit on more than one MIDI channel, then it should give you a way to identify each MIDI device you are sending commands to. On my Ground Control, I can enter each MIDI device I have connected to it, and which channel I'm transmitting to it on. Then when I go to configure a setup for  a specific tone/effects to each device, I will go through the entire MIDI menu, and choose the Program Change# I want to send to each device, then it will go to each GCX unit if I have any attached,  so I can choose which loop I want opened or closed, then it will ask me to choose a button on the foot controller to save all this to. The R1 should give you something similar when you are configuring your rig for a song. You may need to setup 2-3 buttons on the pedalboard for a song. From your post above, I'm getting the impression you can set up 8 combinations on your R1 in one "bank."  Now don't get this reference confused with the Banks I mentioned in the G2.
   On any conventional MIDI foot controller, there are usually 10 presets to choose from, with Bank Up, and Bank Down buttons off to the side. Your default when you power on the pedal should be at bank "0" and you can choose 1-9 which will have all your MIDI devices change to their respective programs when you press each button. Many players will use only a handful of tones and effects, and they can program all of that in one bank. Usually a couple of clean tones, a few gritty tones, and a few lead tones, with or without effects, your choice. As you select these presets on the foot controller, it will show you which one you;ve selected on the LED screen (1-9), but to go above that number you have to select bank up, which will then go to bank (1), now all your preset selections will have the number "1" in front of it. Many players who are in different bands will use different banks for different bands, because they have completely different sounds saved in those, or they will use a different rig that that particular bank is for.

   I believe that most of what you are trying to achieve can be done in the R1 as far as setting up for songs, and sets when playing out. You'll have to have your ADA and Lexicon set up with the tones and effects you want to use, and saved in each device, then it's just a matter of saving the combinations in the R1 to recall at the press of a button. Here is a tip that helps me when I'm editing in my MPX-1 and setting up on my foot controller for specific songs; have a scratch tablet and a pencil handy. Make a list of everything you need from your gear for a song, and we'll refer to each item on the list as a "task." As you go through the Lexicon and pick your guitar tone, and effect(s), check off each task as you complete it. That will help you stay focused as you go through each item, one step at a time. As you become more experienced with the Lexicon, you'll be able to do it in your sleep.
   Since you didn't mention anything about Program Chains in your post above, I'm guessing Lexicon has another name for configuring combinations of tones and effects in the G2.

    I don't want to go into too much info here, but it seems like I did anyway Just try to take this in and see if it helps.

   Harley 8)