Getting your Sound

[Kim]

Now also bear in mind however you think your tone is at bedroom volume or small gig volume becomes completely different at 110 dB. This is my territory and for me if the unit or whatever I'm using doesn't cut through or make the grade at super high volume I don't need or want it. So many guys I have seen take "their sound" from their room or practice room and have to crank it and everything falls apart and then they are depressed. So to me I start at crazy volume and then back down from there ;D

Solid advice.  I do the same when determining where I want to set OD levels.  Give it ALL the gain at a Volume somewhere higher than Medium and lower than OMG :banana-trip:, and roll it back to find the sweet spot.   

Common "Metal Rookie" mistakes:
#1: Using all the available Overdrive Gain. 
#2  Scooping all the Mids out.
#3  Doing this at Bedroom Volume. :poop:

[rabidgerry]

Interesting topic of conversation.

I'm about to flip it around though.

How to get your tone at (quite frankly) unsafe levels of volume?

Something I still struggle with because it only takes a few minutes for my ears to start ringing playing at loud volume through proper loud guitar speakers (12").

The region of frequencies I find hardest to determine are the hi end frequencies.  Why is that so hard?  Because this is actually the region that f*cks your hearing up.  Not the bass or mids.

So here is the scenario:

You are playing at reasonable volume (not quite as loud as you need to beat the drummer but also not even close to bedroom volume), you are trying to get nice treble in your tone, with no fizz, but yet having a level of detail and clarity that keeps it from being muddy.

How do you all do this?  What are your methods?

I have a spanner in the works also.  So you may or may not wear musician earplugs which are generally supposed to have flat response.  Do you adjust your tone at your loudest volume with these in?  Or do you not?

I personally find wearing the ear plugs, I may end up putting a little more treble in than I need and therefore creating an overly bright or fizzy or harsh edged tone.  Or is this paranoia?  Does the sound just tend to sound like this without the ear plugs because it's just up so loud?

Interested in your thoughts?

(bare in mind I am not a newbie and I've played live for many years so this is not from a novice perspective).

P.S Yes I wear ear plugs, why?  Because I need to save my ears for making records and I already know I've had damage done to them from the early years (thanks to drummers cymbals) of not wearing ear plugs but since I have started wearing them, I never get ringing or any painful head exploding effects playing live now.

[Kim]

Well, of course it wouldn't be wise to try to get your sound dialed in at an unsafe volume.  But the volume should be at or very close to a level that would make the speaker work a little, and generally this will always be waaay too loud for any "bedroom level" playing.

I learned this from a reputable source who has far more experience than I.
Three things to help find this is a flashlight, a friend, and over-the-ears hearing protection for both you and friend.
-Set your amp Bass Mid Treble straight up at wherever halfway is on your particular amp. 
-Turn Pres all down, and Master Volume all down.
-Set the OD Gain up about halfway and get that ear protection on both of you.
-Your friend plugs in and just chugs the low string on your axe.  Nothing fancy, no fast thrash triplets, just a steady chug...chug...chug...
While he's doing that, shine the flashlight through the grille cloth on your cab and observe the speaker's movement while slowly raising the Master Volume.  Once you see the speaker actually doing something, stop raising the volume.  Guitar speakers don't have nearly the amount of cone excursion of bass speakers or subwoofers, so you won't see it really moving a lot.  What you will see is that it will appear to look a bit blurry on those chugs and now the speaker(s) are doing their work. Remember, you can always turn it down a little bit from here if you feel it needs to be, but turning it up louder shouldn't ever be necessary.
Adjust the Bass control now just to the point where you can feel and hear the actual cab itself resonating on those chugs.   
The Master Volume and Bass is set, and your mate is really annoying you now with those chugs, so take your axe away from him and have him go get beer. 

Now see about bringing the rest of your amp and OD level up to speed while leaving the Master Volume set right where you left it.  Bring the OD level up as far you want, but if you want some clarity left you may want to roll that back just a bit.  Should be easy enough to set your Mid Treb and Pres EQ from there, but those high frequencies in the Treble and Pres can be troublesome, more so in the Pres. area.  Leave the Pres. until last after you're satisfied with the OD level, Mid and Treb.  You shouldn't need a lot of Pres, since all the "cut" and "punch" in the guitar is lower frequencies than the "fizz" and "sizzle" (and "air" in Clean guitars) that the Pres. control handles.  If it seems like you're getting "lost in the mix" bring the Mids up some.  Make a note of where your settings are so that after this, you can just dial those settings in and be done with only very minor tweaks if needed.

Something to also consider is the actual speaker placement.  Guitar speakers are very directional or "beamy" meaning that they project the sound straight out away from them with very little side dispersion.  Because of this, it's easy to overdo the Pres. settings depending on where you are listening from.  Save the hassle and adjust the Pres. while listening straight inline of the speaker.  This is where the mic will be placed to project the sound through the PA as well, so it makes sense to get it right "here" instead of trying to get it correct from "over there".  It will sound a less brighter from "over there" but you'll get used to that after knowing it's set correctly right where it needs to be set correctly.  The ear protection will hinder the settings, (as you do need to preserve your hearing!) so you could let someone plug in while you step way back away from the speakers while staying inline with them to make the final determination.

As always, YMMV and your tone is Your Tone.  I learned this from a reputable source who has far more experience than I.  We can have the exact same guitar, same amp, same speakers, and play the exact same songs or genre; won't mean we'll arrive with exactly the same settings.  But this will get you closer to a good live sound than by blindly Bass +12    Mid -12   Treb +12  the controls

 

[rabidgerry]

But this will get you closer to a good live sound than by blindly Bass +12    Mid -12   Treb +12  the controls

Thankfully even at bedroom volumes (back when I was a bedroom guitarist I never cut out the mids, but it's a common mistake for a lot of people). 

This is good advice Kim.  Something I will try out.  So obviously thought the years I have just "wung" it trying to set up my live tone.  With your advice there is defined process in orderly steps which is good as it means if you screw up or have to start over you always just go back to step one to find the "neutral" place.  Good for venues where you plug in and suddenly your tone is all up the left because you happen to be using someone else's cabs or the walls reverberate weirdly.

So you set your tone with hearing protection on then?

[Iperfungus]

The more mids you give, the less gain you need! 

[Kim]

So you set your tone with hearing protection on then?

I initially did but now I don't.  But since my speakers are already placed up near my ear level, I don't need that much volume.  They are also lower-wattage rated speakers than the ones usually found in 4x12 cabs and only two of them per cab anyway so they're being worked without having to push them too hard.  And I actually stand slightly off axis of the speakers anyway, so any frequency that seems piercing or fatiguing at that point already got turned down.

Which brings another point.  If your cabs are down on the floor, move your ears to the back of your knees.  lol 

Again, all too easy to dial in a bad piercing tone when you aren't down there where the sound is actually coming from. Just moving my cabs up where they are now did wonders for my sound because I'm actually hearing it so much better than when they were down on the floor.  All my settings and overall volumes needed to be reset....and for the better.
In one of my past bands, the other guitarist would always crank his half-stack with some real shit distortion pedal in the front way more than what was ever needed for our band..... and then he'd stand right directly in front of it.  Well, he couldn't hear anything else but his own playing and the back of his knees were certainly deaf.    Did I mention it sounded like ass?

If you love it loud, if you need it loud, then be loud.  I understand DJC (and many others) plays very loud, but he's also experienced enough to know how to dial his tone in that kind of environment.  Anyone else fairly new to this just needs to make sure they're aware of what's actually going on with their settings.

The more mids you give, the less gain you need! 

More correctly: "The more mids you give, the less overall Volume you need."  I think that's what you really meant to say, right? So just clarifying this.  :) 

[Iperfungus]

The more mids you give, the less gain you need! 

More correctly: "The more mids you give, the less overall Volume you need."  I think that's what you really meant to say, right? So just clarifying this.  :)

Well, more or less... 
Actually, what I mean is that if you use mids in the right way you don't need:

1) more gain to attempt to cut through the mix (epic fail)
2) more volume to let people hear you through the mix (killing the drummer)

I've learned and found that you've to use not more gain than you really need and to scoop mids not too much, if you want people to hear you! 

[rabidgerry]

The more mids you give, the less gain you need! 

Not sure I've ever noticed this.  I've always had lots of mids anyways.  Sometimes reducing them is needed, all depends really on speakers and cabs and the rest of your equipment.  I know I use a lot more mids than plenty of bands I encounter at gigs or on tour. 

I do know that more mids can be perceived as much, much louder.  i.e if you scoop them all out, you need to turn the master volume up a lot more to balance out.  If you use a lot of mids you do not need to turn the volume up as much to sound loud.

Iperfungus how do you sort out your sound for LOUD volumes?

[Iperfungus]

The more mids you give, the less gain you need! 

Not sure I've ever noticed this.  I've always had lots of mids anyways.  Sometimes reducing them is needed, all depends really on speakers and cabs and the rest of your equipment.  I know I use a lot more mids than plenty of bands I encounter at gigs or on tour. 

I do know that more mids can be perceived as much, much louder.  i.e if you scoop them all out, you need to turn the master volume up a lot more to balance out.  If you use a lot of mids you do not need to turn the volume up as much to sound loud.

Iperfungus how do you sort out your sound for LOUD volumes?

Well, everything is always subjective, of course.

Even if it's being long time (sadly) that I don't play at LOUD volumes, generally speaking I was tuning my sound as I described above.
I played in different bands over the years: heavy metal, extreme metal, hard rock, classic rock and also a Kiss tribute band.
When I was younger, I loved metal more and I was used to scoop mids a lot and turn gain to max: at that point, you can set the volume at any level and you will NEVER cut through any mix (you will just kill people ears and do a mess).

Then I learned to set gain just a little higher than the amount I needed to play rhythm parts and the hardest solo, set mids to RIGHT level (not too low, not too high) depending on guitar pickups and speakers.
And that's it.
I never had any problem anymore and I never felt the needing of too high volume anymore. 

PS. choosing a good booster for solos is a good trick as well! 

[rabidgerry]

Well this is kind of going off the question a bit although appreciate your response.

As mentioned at the beginning I'm no novice so knowledge of gear boosters you name it, I'm good with all that thanks    Indeed I use a volume boost for solos even though my three piece band with only me on guitar some say I do not need one.  But to hell with them Im boost a few db anyways.

I just want to know how people go about setting their tones up for Live or Loud use.

As this is completely different from the aforementioned "Bedroom volume" levels that so many younger less experienced players are using regularly and then struggle with the change to BIG VOLUME!

So my own method is pretty random and not very defined so this is why I would like to hear others and how they go about it.  Hearing protection?  No hearing protection?  How do the know when there is enough treble?  etc.

Treble is the area I feel I adjust the most.  It harsh?  Is it Bright?  Is it fizzy?  And it's hard to tell at high volume as it's always going to be harsh when you are playing a a volume to beat your drummer.  So this is what makes it hard to tell for me.  I will try Kim's method for sure, I like the logic behind it.  But I'm curious to see how others go about doing this as more knowledge behind "loud" sound tone adjustment the better.

[Harley Hexxe]

Okay, I'll chime in with my .02 cents on this topic,

    In my experience, every group of musicians you play with is different, so you volume levels, tones, overdrives will be different. The variables are dependent on how loud the others are playing, and how they sound together with you jumping in their mix.
   I have a lot of different tones programmed into my preamps for this very reason. Some tones that work with one group of musicians won't work at all with others. So when I'm editing guitar tones I try to do it at stage volumes and I dial in something that seems useful to me in a certain style of music. Something that helps is if I have a CD or tape going through the mixing desk and blasting out at volume from my monitors. That usually gets me very close to where I need to be with whoever I'll be jamming with. Once in a while I may have to do a little bit of tweaking to compensate for the difference between what I was listening to on the CD, vs. the tones of the actual musicians I'm playing with, but more often than not, I'm already there.
    I find that it is harder to cut through the mix if I have too much gain in the overdrives, so I back off on that a bit without cutting too much out. One of the trickiest things I've discovered many years ago was how my ears perceived the amount of distortion, vs how the microphones pick it up. At one recording session in 1998, I remember wanting to get a slightly overdriven tone on my guitar, just to fatten up the sound and give it a bit more sustain. I backed off the gain in OD1 and OD2 in my Classic, and thought I had it just right, until I heard the playback. It came through with a LOT more saturation than I was hearing live. Not at all the sound I was hearing standing in front of the speakers of my amp. I had to back it off a lot more to get the sound I was looking for on the recording. Since then, I've gone back and listened more carefully to a lot of the artists whom I drew the inspiration for my presets, only to discover, they weren't playing with as much distortion as I though they were at first.
    So for me it became more about preserving a great guitar tone in a live situation, at any volume. I'll dial in the tone I want, with the EQ a bit more heavy on the low end, and boosted low mids, then I'll add the treble  in to get the top end sizzle, and last I'll bring in the high mids, or presence, to just fill in the empty frequencies, but no more. The drive on my OD1 and OD2 I'll add a little at a time just to fatten it up a bit and add some sustain. The rest is in your fingers and what's in your head.

   Harley 8)

[Kim]

One of the trickiest things I've discovered many years ago was how my ears perceived the amount of distortion, vs how the microphones pick it up. At one recording session in 1998, I remember wanting to get a slightly overdriven tone on my guitar, just to fatten up the sound and give it a bit more sustain. I backed off the gain in OD1 and OD2 in my Classic, and thought I had it just right, until I heard the playback. It came through with a LOT more saturation than I was hearing live. Not at all the sound I was hearing standing in front of the speakers of my amp. I had to back it off a lot more to get the sound I was looking for on the recording. Since then, I've gone back and listened more carefully to a lot of the artists whom I drew the inspiration for my presets, only to discover, they weren't playing with as much distortion as I though they were at first.

Most players would probably never even know this unless having that experience that for themselves.  And that's what we're trying to do here....get some of this experienced info in the hands of the inexperienced. 

[Harley Hexxe]

Those are my thoughts too Kim, and that's why I threw it out there. If it helps someone, then I've managed to pass along something I've learned, and once again, just proves what a great Forum this is!

   Besides, I find it very interesting to see how other people dial in their tones. If I try a different way of doing that from the way I've been used to doing it, will I arrive at the same kind of tone I have using my method, or will it be better or worse? It's an interesting experiment either way it ends up.

   Harley 8)

[rnolan]

In more recent times I've backed off to MP2 voice 5 warm vintage (only 1 OD) for the majority of my playing (using midi master vol for lead boost), and my old (80's/90's) rhythm patch is now my over the top lead (IIRC voice 9).  And for the first time in my playing I've been rolling back vol pots to clean it up more.  Eg I find with my JPLP it sounds just right with the vol on 2.5 - 3 with the warm vintage patch.  But I'm also playing allot differently these days. (well I'm mostly playing bass at the moment LoL).

The other difference maybe worth mentioning is when there is one or 2 guitars.  If there is another guitar to get on top off, you need (I've found anyway) a bigger vol boost for leads.  Keyboards also tend to fill the mid range layer and then you need to cut through a bit more (so eq becomes more an issue). When it's just guitar, bass, drums and vox, you have allot more dynamic latitude.  I used to program patches with the appropriate master vol jumps/boost (2 guitars and keyboards), now I use the MP2 midi master (controlled with CC expression pedal through MXC) which lets me quickly adapt as required. And instead of using lots of patches over multiple banks (for different songs), I tend to use just 3, a good clean, the warm vintage for most things (and roll vol pots) and my old rhythm patch for more over the top leads.  But all my live sounds I've tweaked with a drummer and bass player in the room  , then they work live but also sound good when you turn them down to record at home (or play in the lounge room..).

As for process to getting my tones, with MP1 I started with a copy of patch 1 (IIRC) and tweaked from there (but at stage vols with the band (as Harley says, who and what instruments you are playing with make a big difference)) Back in my MP1 days I chased up different sounds to suit the repertoire we were playing (which had quite a few originals, so I mostly made my own sounds  >:D ) and many of the patches were about Fx settings/patches more than MP1 tones.  I remember thinking, this this (MP1) is so versatile/tweakable, when do you say, stop, that's it... Anyway I got there over time to the point where most of the tweaks were subtle master vol changes.

I've actually started to experiment a bit more with MP2 patches, basically trying some of the one others here have posted (albeit with different guitars/PUs), and found a few that work for me.  Initially when I got my MP2, (and I was gigging (allot) then so not much time..), I just went with patch 1 (again), and tweaked it to suit (but again at volume).

[DannyjoeCarter]

This is cool! I didn't realize my comment would get so much attention  ;D

To me there is nothing better than going to a concert because of the volume and sound pressure. I actually get a slight buzz or a little high from LOUD music and even more so if it's my own music and band.
I will share this and I found this to be true with many players; I remember back in 1986 when I bought my first Marshall JCM 800 with two 4X12 cabinets and thought I was in heaven...............until I cranked it up at a park  :-[. No - the police didn't come oddly enough but I couldn't play because I literally couldn't control the guitar or handle the response and sounded like I had been playing only a few months 

Many years later when I got into racks, yes the MP-1 and Mesa power amps, I had the same experience with playing at high volume. So I rented a studio and had it all to myself for 4 hours a day - and got a huge fat tone at around 110dB and started practicing daily at that volume.
I will promise you - this takes practice learning to control the guitar and getting your technique together at high volumes. I learned that from Ted Nugent, haven't met him yet but heard interviews from the 70's where he discussed that and learning to control feedback and allowing the magic to happen in your hands.

This may not be for everyone but I would challenge some of you to test what I'm saying. Grab two or four 4X12 cabinets , ( I have four 4X12's now  ;D ) and a 100 watt or more power amp and crank it up and go into your routine!  :headbanger:  Playing at 110dB at first will SCARE THE HELL out of you!!! :poop:
Then if you're a freak like me you'll start to catch a buzz from it and really get into it!

The guitar responds differently at high volumes and things get almost like my buddy Jason says, "Dancing Lightning" because especially with high gain, your touch becomes very light and you can feel every vibration of the guitar. This is what happens for me anyway. Many of my close guitar friends CAN NOT play my rigs and the guitar squeals and sounds awful and they hand it back to me shaking their heads.  So it takes practice - practicing and playing at high volumes.
And yes - hearing loss, a little but I have learned something extremely cool! Plus I love the experience of playing a stadium level even though I have not gotten to play a stadium, one day hopefully, but it is a pretty killer thing to know how to handle the volume and dynamics at those volumes.

So guys I just love sharing my experiences on here and I know everyone gets something different out of playing the guitar and this all may offend some because of my advocating insane volume and hearing loss. But this is just what I love - we had band rehearsal today and things were falling off the walls in my shop but Man it was awesome!!! My drummer David and bass player Bob and I were in our own Hog Heaven playing our own private concert and we could feel it all in our chests and we grinning from ear to ear.