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Non ADA Gear => Rack Gear => Topic started by: rabidgerry on January 04, 2016, 03:01:47 AM

Title: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 04, 2016, 03:01:47 AM
Yes the noise is less if I don't have all the devices plugged into the same plug outlets. 

This is what has appeared to have happened - when I plug the amps (I use two amps) into one set of plug outlets and the preamp into a different set of plug outlets I get less noise.  I still can't use single coil pickups though.  The noise is so bad (guitars are fully shielded).

The noise I was getting was coming through my gear without a guitar+cable connected, like if I just turn everying on but have no guitar connected I was getting noise through the speaker.  Not loud but more than I think I should have been getting.  So when a guitar was plugged in it would obviously be louder noise.  After a switch to alternating plug outlets the noise through the gear with no guitar was less and more what I would describe as a "normal" amount of amp/speaker noise.  And once a guitar was connected up to that arrangement of plugs the noise was also reduced.

I do not know if this is anything to do with the fact my MP1 is using a step down transformer.

If I could try a power conditioner I would.  And if I knew they worked I would buy one in a heartbeat, but so far I've never been convinced.

Do you have one DR?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 04, 2016, 06:06:28 AM
+1 for the Power Conditioner. I wouldn't wanna miss my Furman. Its providing a constant voltage to my rig and filters any unwanted spikes, drops or "dirty" voltage.
If you can find a Furman PL Plus grab it!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 04, 2016, 07:00:41 AM
I can't speak for anyone else here in the UK so any UK people splease speak up if you use one of these.

I don't know if we in the UK suffer from voltage spikes or anything like that as much as US for example.  No idea about Europe SC.  I have not come across anyone using a power conditioner in my 9 years of gigging and the oinly thing I have ever saw is a surge protector.

And until I get some hard evidence that they make your setup less noisey by filtering crap out then I don't see the need for a furman.

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 04, 2016, 02:01:24 PM
+1 for the Power Conditioner. I wouldn't wanna miss my Furman. Its providing a constant voltage to my rig and filters any unwanted spikes, drops or "dirty" voltage.
If you can find a Furman PL Plus grab it!

+1 on the Furman.It filters out garbage from the net,it protects you gear from spikes and overvoltages and it lights up your rack on the front and back !!!

Lets say you have a gig and some idiot switched the neutral and line and you plug in your gear at 380Vac i guarantee you will blow up a lot of your gear,with a furman you are protected against this,it will go in protect mode and it won't power up  the rest of your gear as long as the voltage is too high.

Now should you decide to buy a furman get one of the new series II or newer.These have an electronic protection system which can be reset.The older ones use VDR for protection,so they will blow and you will need to replace them.

As for single coils,they are more noisy,that's just the way it is,that's why they invented HUMbuckers.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Soloist on January 04, 2016, 09:27:11 PM
I would also +1 on the Furman.
Just for the piece of mind alone to protect my shit from power fluctuations. Some of the wiring in these old bars and places I've played looks like it was installed when electricity was first invented  :facepalm: Better to have and be protected than to not have and fry your rig! :nono:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 05, 2016, 12:41:46 AM
Honestly I realise these things are useful for protection but I still have not seen any evidence of noise reduction.  What noise does it exactly filter out?  If it's 60/50hz hum this is not an issue for me.

I don't think I'll be getting one anytime soon to be honest.


Lets say you have a gig and some idiot switched the neutral and line and you plug in your gear at 380Vac i guarantee you will blow up a lot of your gear,with a furman you are protected against this,it will go in protect mode and it won't power up  the rest of your gear as long as the voltage is too high.

I'm sure it would but why would anyone do this?

No one touches my plugs at shows except to unplug them from mains adapter or extension leads.  That seems a little strange that anyone would do that.

Perhaps it's the two pronged plug that is susceptible to this but not with a UK 3 pronged plug.  You could not switch unless someone opened your plug (highly unlikely) and switched them.  I'm not sure if this is what you mean though.

As for single coils,they are more noisy,that's just the way it is,that's why they invented HUMbuckers.


Yeah I know, but plenty of people use them and don't have as much noise.


Gone a little off topic a here.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 05, 2016, 01:42:24 AM
The Furman units come with a dedicated RFI/EMI filter and that´s what they filter out of whatever you plug them in besides giving you surge/spike protection.
Lots of bars/clubs have a shitload of electrical gadgets hooked up to single phases of their power lines. Stage lighting + beer draft assembly + deep fryer e.g....
Hook up your rig and a blow dryer in your rehearsal room and give it go...best example.
This is your basic "entry level" Furman PC: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Furman-M-10x-E-Power-Conditioner-New-/371522916739?hash=item56807dd183:g:h-QAAOSwpDdVVcp7 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Furman-M-10x-E-Power-Conditioner-New-/371522916739?hash=item56807dd183:g:h-QAAOSwpDdVVcp7)

I have an "old" PL-Plus E that´s never let me down. It´s an audible difference (in terms of noise) in whatever place I set up my rig. Never had any issues with it, just replaced the Varistors/MOVs 2 years ago (just for my conscience)....
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 05, 2016, 02:12:29 AM
So are you saying that would create more noise?  More appliances running off the same power supply?  And when I mean noise I mean rfi/emf  I only get hum if I put my guitar right up to my amps or have ground loops with stuff.

If so perhaps I get more noise as I have a PA running, Two mixers, a multitrack, two amps, an MFX unit, a preamp, etc

if you reply back and the answer is yes more stuff on using power supply means more noise in your gear then this would explain some shit I experienced trying to record back guitar through the amps di and also why the f**king thins is so noisey using a single coil pickup.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 05, 2016, 04:31:59 AM
Yes!

All different kinds of power supplies and them running different types of applications that all draw different currents...
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 05, 2016, 05:58:14 AM
right ok.  How does this get from mains to your guitar signal though?  They are seperate are they not?

I watched this and it was interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyI85XOKzZ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyI85XOKzZ4)

Perhaps I get a shit load of noise then more than any of you guys with power conditioners.  I've done well over the years then to deal with it  :lol:

Ok a hypothetical hear.  If I get a power conditioner is noise going to reduce, buzzy shitty RFI/EMF?  (Yes I use proper shielded cables and shielded guitar.)

ok Second, when I divided my amps and plugged them into one side of our rehearsal room and then plugged the MP1 into an extension cable running to sockets on the other side of the room did noise reduce because there was nothing plugged in along side the MP1?

If this is all correct and I get one of these things it might change my noisey LIFE  :lol: :lol:  It seems a little too good to be true though.

Third situation, I run  a multitrack and MP1 and two other power supplies for other devices all into the same sockets in my home studio, I don't have a noise issue (well I don't think the noise is excessive whilst using gain in my opinion).  Why do I not have noise issues here?  Because I'm at much quieter levels?  Would you recommend getting a PwrCon for home studio also?

Fourth thing, these power conditioners all appear to have female IEC sockets, how the hell can I plug in UK plugs into this?

I'm nearly convinved SC but I'll need answers to all above from anyone who has the answers  :thumb-up:  :lol:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 05, 2016, 06:20:26 AM
right ok.  How does this get from mains to your guitar signal though?  They are seperate are they not?

Wall outlet > cable > transformer (either wall wart or buit-in) > gear

...
Ok a hypothetical hear.  If I get a power conditioner is noise going to reduce, buzzy shitty RFI/EMF?  (Yes I use proper shielded cables and shielded guitar.)

Yes

ok Second, when I divided my amps and plugged them into one side of our rehearsal room and then plugged the MP1 into an extension cable running to sockets on the other side of the room did noise reduce because there was nothing plugged in along side the MP1?

Might be that the outlet on the other side of the room is connected to a different phase.
Else, most easily explained: One outlet plus loads of different gear with different trannies (also in quality) drawing different currents....
That´s also why pedal-board-FX-box junkies always wanna have galvanic separated outlets in their dedicated power bricks, especially when running digital FX-pedals (Dly e.g.) and analog FX-pedals.... daisy-chain them and you´ll have hizz-buzz-humm heaven

If this is all correct and I get one of these things it might change my noisey LIFE  :lol: :lol:  It seems a little too good to be true though.

Third situation, I run  a multitrack and MP1 and two other power supplies for other devices all into the same sockets in my home studio, I don't have a noise issue (well I don't think the noise is excessive whilst using gain in my opinion).  Why do I not have noise issues here?  Because I'm at much quieter levels?  Would you recommend getting a PwrCon for home studio also?

Your home is by 99.9% wired up a lot better/cleaner than your rehearsing room/building and your average pub/bar.
But, once the PC is in the rack and all wired up, why take chances  :thumb-up:

Fourth thing, these power conditioners all appear to have female IEC sockets, how the hell can I plug in UK plugs into this?

As we´ve all done it. Snap/clip off your domestic plug and attach a male IEC plug to pieces of gear you wanna hook up ;-)
No soldering required
(http://www.hydrohobby.co.uk/images/detailed/2/iec_male_plug.jpg)

Added bonus: You can cut the power cables to a custom length and get rid of cable spaghetti inside of your rack.
Always follow this rule of thumb: power cables on one side of the rack; signal cables on the other  :thumb-up: :thumb-up:

I'm nearly convinved SC but I'll need answers to all above from anyone who has the answers  :thumb-up:  :lol:

Believe me/us. A dedicated Power Conditioner/surge&spike protection is money well spent. Especially in combination with the precious gear we´re all running.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 05, 2016, 06:56:19 AM
Well blow me down with a feather!

(must apologise for my shit English I spealt hear earlier rather than here woops!)

Ok, understand most of that, didn't get the reference to pedal junkies?  What are they obsessed with doing?  Don't they use batteries a lot of the time?

Cut off all my plugs?  Are you serious?  I've wired one of those things before, in fact one of my first posts on here was about why my first MP1 had a weird IEC style (it wasn't exactly the same as IEC) femal thing attached to it and not a plug!  No one even mentioned why it would have been on there.  It was actually IEC15 socket I think.


Ok in the case of my standard Mp1 where I use a stepdown transformer, do I need to cut off the plug to the transformer and hook one of those sockets on to that as well? (I might get the MDRT by that stage though so no need)

An awful amount of plugs will being cut off.

Another question, all my mixers and PA ans shit, should all these go through a conditioner also?  I don't have noise issues with them really.  So long as the guitar gets improved I don't care about stupid bass and vocals  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 05, 2016, 07:16:35 AM
the pedal-board-guys reference was just to give an example of how different applications/circuits (analog vs digital) deal with/draw power/current...
That´s why these folks have them high$$$ pedalboard power-supplies with galvanic separated outlets (CIOKS, Power-Brick,....)
Same happens (to some extent) with rack gear....

In the case with the step-down tranny it is indeed the step-down tranny`s plug that needs to be modified to IEC.
But if you´re planning on getting the MDRT... ;-)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 05, 2016, 07:28:54 AM
Good work you have now converted me!

But this is the deal, you're buying it off me if I still have noise  :facepalm:

 :thumb-up:

Eyeing a few up on ebay, always after a bargain me  :whoohoo!:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 05, 2016, 08:02:02 AM

Lets say you have a gig and some idiot switched the neutral and line and you plug in your gear at 380Vac i guarantee you will blow up a lot of your gear,with a furman you are protected against this,it will go in protect mode and it won't power up  the rest of your gear as long as the voltage is too high.

I'm sure it would but why would anyone do this?

No one touches my plugs at shows except to unplug them from mains adapter or extension leads.  That seems a little strange that anyone would do that.

Gone a little off topic a here.

You would be amased what sometimes happends
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 05, 2016, 08:03:35 AM
Good work you have now converted me!

But this is the deal, you're buying it off me if I still have noise  :facepalm:

 :thumb-up:

Eyeing a few up on ebay, always after a bargain me  :whoohoo!:

Let us know if you want some help before buying!!!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 05, 2016, 10:20:16 AM
actually yeah some people shouldn't be allowed on stages MJMP so I guess some  :poop:head could screw shit up on ya.

I'm actually broke after Christmas so I dunno when I can get one.  I see one on ebay at the mo.  It's a phonic which is the cheaper end of the market.  I have a 31 band stereo ok by them so I think their stuff is ok.  I'm only looking because if I snared it for 50quid it would at least give a starter PC and for all I know it's good.  The reviews of this model appear to say it's good.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phonic-PPC8000E-Power-Conditioner-/141866500962?hash=item2107e70362:g:AywAAOSwJkJWhw4b (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phonic-PPC8000E-Power-Conditioner-/141866500962?hash=item2107e70362:g:AywAAOSwJkJWhw4b)

just found this as well  might be worth a last minute bid if I can it for next to nothing.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samson-Powerbright-Distribution-And-Rack-Light/291649642995?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3Dbdc6842b3d4344ecb454500760d31acf%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D321962452611 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samson-Powerbright-Distribution-And-Rack-Light/291649642995?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3Dbdc6842b3d4344ecb454500760d31acf%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D321962452611)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 05, 2016, 11:41:20 AM
AFAIK the Samson is just a power distributor/rack light whereas the Phonic has RFI/EMI filtering so I'd grab that one
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 05, 2016, 12:51:05 PM
good spot my man, I just checked that out there now.  Wonder if anymore bargains are knocking about on there.  I see an ART 4x4 for about 63quid.  Might be an alternative if the Phonic falls through.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 05, 2016, 02:41:35 PM
Must be the PB 4x4 Pro then.... The "normal" PB 4x4 goes for 49$ new...
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2016, 03:19:57 PM
Lets say you have a gig and some idiot switched the neutral and line and you plug in your gear at 380Vac....

I'm sure it would but why would anyone do this?

I believe what MarshallJMP is talking about here is how the venue (or even your house or studio) outlets/circuits are actually wired.  You can't assume that everyone has their stuff wired by someone certified to do that and have it up to the proper code and regulations even though it may be the law.  I've worked as a Maintenance Tech for a few places in the past, and I'm here to tell ya.....I've seen some things, man.   Matter of fact, my current and past two residences all needed some electrical wiring re-done when I moved in because I learned to just check that stuff automatically.  Some people think that because the outlet is AC, that the Neutral and Line are interchangeable with each other and just wire all their outlets willy nilly right down the entire circuit.  >:(

That said, I haven't yet played a venue that featured shit wiring but I will never chance plugging my gear in without a Power conditioner...

So long as the guitar gets improved I don't care about stupid bass and vocals  :thumb-up:

 :lol:  Careful, those might be fightin' words.   lol
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 05, 2016, 04:31:15 PM
SC $49?  Where you see that?

I got these guys doing it cheapest I seen

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/19-inch-power-strip/art-pb4x4-power-base-power-distribution-unit-and-stabiliser?gclid=CJXitLf2k8oCFYu4Gwodl2sIwg (https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/19-inch-power-strip/art-pb4x4-power-base-power-distribution-unit-and-stabiliser?gclid=CJXitLf2k8oCFYu4Gwodl2sIwg)

probably more after shipping.


HI Kim,

I'm still confused as to the switching of negative and line wires.  It may be different in America, but no one opens up appliances in the UK and switches the wires in the plug.  When people buy stuff they leave it as it is....well the plugs anyways.

Can you describe exactly what you mean because the idea someone would switch the sires in the plugs is madness to me because it will just blow up, which is why no one would do such a thing in the UK.  Is there some point that people would do that in the states?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2016, 07:17:06 PM
I'm still confused as to the switching of negative and line wires.  It may be different in America, but no one opens up appliances in the UK and switches the wires in the plug.  When people buy stuff they leave it as it is....well the plugs anyways.

Can you describe exactly what you mean because the idea someone would switch the sires in the plugs is madness to me because it will just blow up, which is why no one would do such a thing in the UK.  Is there some point that people would do that in the states?

The actual wall receptacle that you would plug your gear into may not be wired right.  The prime example would be that the owner of the property might NOT want to hire a qualified electrician to do the work, whether it be just adding a circuit or two to existing property or starting from go with a newly built property.  The mindset usually is "I can save a lot of money by doing it myself" and "it's only 3 wires and one of them is Ground (Earth) and the other two go wherever; no big deal nobody will know"  and then usually followed by "code schmode"...  It happens here a lot.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 06, 2016, 12:57:28 AM
Ok I see what you mean.

It doesn't happen here a lot lol which is why I was like "why would anyne do that?".

Apart from me sturggling with the concept of stupid idiots wiring shit up badly, at least I have been convinved to get a PC, so I really hope it changes things for me.  I may have suffered from garbage from electrical supply all these years and not realised and just thought I had noisey gear of some sorts or that it was the location I was in that had shit electric supply and I had to put up with it, like in our rehearsal room.  I noticed in some venues it's not too bad and other is would be, but I didn't realise the fact that a million things are all plugged in at the same time that would even affect it so fingers crossed the PC will change things for me.

The obvious protection element of a PC will of course be a plus as well but the noise thing will be the biggest incentive for me personally.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 06, 2016, 05:13:47 AM
What i mean is when you have a 3 phase net you get get 380V between the line voltages and 220V between neutral and line (when you have a 220/380V grid),if someone switches the neutral wire with a line wire you will get 380V instead of 220V on one of the connections.

Also a bad connection in the neutral wire can cause voltage fluctuations between line and neutral where depending on the load one phase can have 180V and on another you can get 260V or more.This happends a lot.Now the undervoltage won't hurt anything but the overvoltage ...

Now on the other hand,let's say you have an open air gig and everything has to be build from scratch it's not unlikely that a mixup in the wiring can happen,have seen it before.

This is the reason i bought a furman power conditioner series II,these don't work with VDR's anymore but they have an active sensing circuit that measures the incomming voltage,and if it's too high it will go into protect mode and won't switch on the outputs that go to your gear.I find this a lot safer then the VDR's where you will have to hope that the internal fuse will blow on time when the VDR protection comes in.But usually this is not case.And afterwards you need to replace all the VDR's in the PC.And they blow a lot,have replaced these a lot back in the days.

So it's not only EMI/RFI suppression that is important but also the level of protection.So it's better to invest 200 euro in a good device that protects your gear then paying a lot more when something goes wrong at a gig or even at your home.

Furman is the world leader when it comes to PC's.They are not cheap but they are just the best you can get.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 06, 2016, 07:27:35 AM
From what I have been reading on the devices I have been looking at they all seem to have the trip switch that will turn the unit off or beak the circuit when it senses something wrong.  Some have a visual meter guage

Another answer to the "what of someone does this" scenarios which in the UK is a totally unlikely is...............

music insurance which I have  :thumb-up:  Doesn't cost that much to get protected all over europe at home or away if something does get damaged I can get compensated if something randomly blows up.

For me MJMP the main attraction of PC is the cleaning aspect.  I'm really not worried about gear blowing, although I take on board your advice so I'm not snubbing ya man.  I'm getting one in some shape or form so I will be protected, just may not be a furman.  Not yet anyway.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 06, 2016, 01:36:31 PM
Ok i hear you  :thumb-up:  Just pointing out the things that can go wrong based on my experience as a tech and at work.

The trip switch is just a fuse which only trips if the current is too high.It doesn't sense a higher then normal voltage.

Insurrance,well they are always happy to collect money but as soon as something goes wrong and they need to pay out they always find some small print to escape paying.Or you have drop some amount etc...

Now furman also has different "level" conditioners going from really cheap to freaking expensive.

http://ehomerecordingstudio.com/power-conditioner-reviews/
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 08, 2016, 06:11:05 PM
I've saw furman at like £2000

what level are you using?  As in what model and around what price.  I saw a series 2 like you mention for around £100 the other day.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 09, 2016, 03:20:27 AM
I guess the 2k£ one is a Voltage Regulator on top of being a Power Conditioner.
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=P-6900-ARE (http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=P-6900-ARE)

I'm using the predecessor of this one:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-PLUSCE (http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-PLUSCE)

This would be the pro one (minus volatge regulator feature):
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-PRODMCE (http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-PRODMCE)

This one gets the job done as well:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-8CE (http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-8CE)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 09, 2016, 03:36:24 AM
I guess the 2k£ one is a Voltage Regulator on top of being a Power Conditioner.
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=P-6900-ARE (http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=P-6900-ARE)

I'm using the predecessor of this one:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-PLUSCE (http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-PLUSCE)

This would be the pro one (minus volatge regulator feature):
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-PRODMCE (http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-PRODMCE)

This one gets the job done as well:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-8CE (http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=PL-8CE)

could not afford even the basic one right now


http://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_pl8_ce.htm (http://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_pl8_ce.htm)

what about this one?

http://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_m10lx_e.htm (http://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_m10lx_e.htm)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 09, 2016, 08:18:45 AM
I have the furman pl-plus e series II

http://audioshop.com.ua/images2/furman_pl-plus-ebigoriginal.jpg

Now it's called the pl plus CE

Price has gone up quite a bit bought mine new for 220 euro.

I have all my guitar gear hooked to it.So one flick of the switch and it's all on  >:D
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 09, 2016, 08:30:05 AM
...got the same one :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 09, 2016, 02:00:41 PM
I have the furman pl-plus e series II

http://audioshop.com.ua/images2/furman_pl-plus-ebigoriginal.jpg

Now it's called the pl plus CE

Price has gone up quite a bit bought mine new for 220 euro.

I have all my guitar gear hooked to it.So one flick of the switch and it's all on  >:D

Aww really?  You only have to hit one switch!  That sucks!  I like having to switch on about ten things hahahaha!

I joke of course!  :lol:

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 09, 2016, 03:28:07 PM
Well is was lying,i need to put the 2 stanby switches on my heads to on. :facepalm:  :P
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 10, 2016, 04:24:52 AM
ooooooooooooooohhhhh  I can never trust you ever again!   :nono:


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Again I joke  :thumb-up:

Now a legit question.  Say I have an effects device that runs off it own 9v power supply, how the f*ck do I get that to work off a power conditioner that only has IEC  sockets?  Please don't tell me I'll need some sort of adapter!!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 10, 2016, 06:31:12 AM
.....  Please don't tell me I'll need some sort of adapter!!

Yap, you do! But those can be easily self-made wit them IEC plugs I posted earlier.
Once again: all power cords/lines one one side of the rack, all signal cords on the other. Worth the effort and reduces hum and noise big-time
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 11, 2016, 12:51:37 AM
this seems like a real pain in the balls!  The power pack I am thinking of is large.  Like this but bigger

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTMxOVgxMzE5/$(KGrHqR,!pgE8WVcVmBFBPVLBPPqKQ~~60_35.JPG (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTMxOVgxMzE5/$(KGrHqR,!pgE8WVcVmBFBPVLBPPqKQ~~60_35.JPG)

How does this convert to an IEC?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 11, 2016, 01:30:21 PM
Well i solved this by just adding a powerstrip on the bottom of my 19" rack,cut off the connector and put on a IEC connector.
And i added a "powersupply rack" with a few small 9Vac toroid transformers for my 9V and 18Vac racks.So this also saves some adaptors.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 12, 2016, 01:26:10 AM
Not sure I know what you mean MJMP, does this mean you have another unit you have to carry about?  Isn't a power strip like a series of plug socekts together in one big chunky block type thing?


If a power conditioner has high-voltage surge and transient suppressor is this what I want in it?  This protects me from Voltage coming from the mains yes?  And then I also want the trip function that will trip when too many Amps plugged in yes?

And of course good old RFI/EMF filtering?  Would these be the main things?  Are meter functions like the little voltage guages or LED displays necessary?

Also what does this do?

http://cpc.farnell.com/powerdata-technologies/v13a-saf-8/vertical-uk-filtered-8-way/dp/PL09714 (http://cpc.farnell.com/powerdata-technologies/v13a-saf-8/vertical-uk-filtered-8-way/dp/PL09714)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 12, 2016, 02:17:05 PM
Yes i have an extra unit i build myself with 3 toroid transformers in it to feed my ADA MXC,the rocktron patchmate,my dunlop rack wah and the decimator pro g rack.These all work on 9V ac voltages except the dunlop which is 24V ac.The 220V is connected with a IEC connector to the furman power conditioner.So to answer your next question "why would you do that?"Well a few reasons,first the room ,an adapter takes up to much space in the back of your rack.

Second,noise from the magnetic field these adapters radiate.

Now it's all in a small 19" rack were i used toroids (which radiate less magnetic field then a standard transformer and they are smaller in height).Also the rack acts as a faraday's cage to keep the magnetic radition to a minimum.
So no adapters in my rack.

And SC already gave a good tip;audio cables all on one side of the rack,the other side all the power and midi cables.

For me ,what i need in a power conditioner

* RFI/EMI filter  (a good one because there is a lot of difference in quality)

* High-voltage surge and transient suppressor (electronic type,no VDR's for me because they are usually fried when they done their work)

* And the meter is mandatory for me,i like to see the mains voltage i'm plugging into.

* Rack lights front and back.

Look what can happen with cheap power strips and power conditioners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JujCqjLSQF8


The farnell thing is a powerstrip with a cheap RFI filter.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 12, 2016, 03:14:54 PM
In UK we call those "power strips"  adapters.  I dunno why.  We call them bar extension leads and a few other random things.

I personally would never rely on something like that as my surge protector.

Although lets do a comparison here.  Your video, have you ever saw this happen?  I'm pretty sure you will tell me yes.  Or saw something blow up may be in less dramatic fashion.

Well I've never saw anything like that happen.  May be 30 years ago or more this type of thing might have happened but in my experience it doesn't seem to be common.

I am still thinking of power conditioner, but the fact I'll need something else added to it is off putting.  I need a mobile as f*ck rig that I can take on a plane with me.  My band does not have a tour bus and private jet so I need to practical about this kind of thing. ( first gig tour is 23.10.2016 Café De Meister, Burgemeester, Lemmensstraat, 250, Geleen, Netherlands)

Right so I could get a power conditioner (mjmp - sponsored by Furman  :lol:) and cut the plug of a "power strip" or bar adapter as we call them, and plug this into the PC and then I could then take  9v adapter and plug it into the bar adapter?  Ok it's a solution but f*ck I do not want anymore shit to carry!!!


edit:  could I use this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/201005770074?adgroupid=13585920426&hlpht=true&hlpv=2&rlsatarget=pla-131843261586&adtype=pla&ff3=1&lpid=122&poi=&ul_noapp=true&limghlpsr=true&ff19=0&googleloc=1007282&device=c&chn=ps&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0&ff12=67&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff14=122&viphx=1&ops=true&ff13=80 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/201005770074?adgroupid=13585920426&hlpht=true&hlpv=2&rlsatarget=pla-131843261586&adtype=pla&ff3=1&lpid=122&poi=&ul_noapp=true&limghlpsr=true&ff19=0&googleloc=1007282&device=c&chn=ps&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0&ff12=67&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff14=122&viphx=1&ops=true&ff13=80)

also is this spec ok?


Current rating                      10 Amps with circuit breaker
Accessory outlets                 10 switched on the rear and plus 1 unswitched on the front
input Voltage                       180 to 260 VAC
noise Attenuation                  transverse and common modes: 20dn at 200khZ, rising to >0dB, 1 to 100 Mhz.
lamp                                    2 slide-out, swiveling light fixtures for rack illumination
response time                       1 nanosecond
Maximum surge Current         6,500 amps dimensions (hxwxd) 1.75"x19"x6" (.mmx8.2mmx152mm)

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 13, 2016, 09:08:08 AM
Well you need the bar adapter anyway so the only thing added is the power conditioner.Right?

Yes  and no but i did see tv and wireless phones ,stereo's smoke like this due to the fact the voltage was too high.A lot of of lamps that popped etc....And why just because a neuter wire bacame loose.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 13, 2016, 09:15:45 AM
uhh no I don't take the bar adapter with me.  Venues provide plug sockets, and if we show up there are not enough we frown angrily  >:(

So I could get one of these for the one 9v power pack that I need to run of the PC



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/201005770074?adgroupid=13585920426&hlpht=true&hlpv=2&rlsatarget=pla-131843261586&adtype=pla&ff3=1&lpid=122&poi=&ul_noapp=true&limghlpsr=true&ff19=0&googleloc=1007282&device=c&chn=ps&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0&ff12=67&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff14=122&viphx=1&ops=true&ff13=80
 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/201005770074?adgroupid=13585920426&hlpht=true&hlpv=2&rlsatarget=pla-131843261586&adtype=pla&ff3=1&lpid=122&poi=&ul_noapp=true&limghlpsr=true&ff19=0&googleloc=1007282&device=c&chn=ps&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0&ff12=67&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff14=122&viphx=1&ops=true&ff13=80)


no way about the phone, I never saw that before.  Although last night I thought my toaster was gonna f**king exlode!  It sparked quite a lot when the toast popped.  You think that is dangerous MJMP?  Should I bin it?  It normally sparks a bit but that frightened last night.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Systematic Chaos on January 13, 2016, 09:45:37 AM
Exactly one like that and you're golden!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 13, 2016, 01:05:53 PM
Wow never saw those plugs before.Well you learn every day.

Mmmm well you see what can happen if you don't use a power conditioner  :lol:
Ok serious now ,i would bin it!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 13, 2016, 02:43:29 PM
Exactly one like that and you're golden!

Ok guys she will be mine..................er the Power Conditioner.  I shall have better sounding toast!

I jest  :lol:

Hey SC you sounded very "English" there.  You been hanging out with brits  on the job ???  My bro used to live in England before Germany and he still sounds English from time to time.

MJMP, shall I get a new toaster then in the January sales?  Ok I shall do that and send you some toast.   :amaze:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 14, 2016, 08:51:43 AM
Yep get a new one but buy one with a build in furman PC hahahahahaha  :lol: :thumb-up:

And now i'm going to shut up about furman,you might start to think they pay me for selling PC's  :-X
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: DorsetRatt on January 14, 2016, 11:00:42 AM
Here we go ... for better sounding toast ... an amp built into a toaster. Just plug the guitar in and jam (or perhaps marmalade) :thumb-up:

(http://www.fretwired.com/images/toaster-amp2.jpg)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 14, 2016, 12:33:37 PM
yes when I play with my band I marmalade as opposed to jam!  Good one DR  :lol: :lol:

So MJMP how much is Furman paying you?  A free hooker every night and some beer?  Come on spill the beans?  :lol:

MJMP we have plans to play in Belgium this year so you might get a chance to see us and throw fruit and veg at us ;D
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 14, 2016, 01:54:25 PM
Well my wife won't let me go to hookers so that just leaves the beer. >:D

Ah great any dates or places?? I saw you will play in Geleen which is not so far from my place but i have to work that saterday evening.

Here in Belgium we don't throw fruit and veg ,only beer (with and without the bottle) !! :facepalm:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 14, 2016, 01:57:11 PM
Hey DR

Nice toaster,is it tube driven  :lol:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: DorsetRatt on January 14, 2016, 03:05:10 PM
 :lol: HaHa ... Apologies, see what happens when you type "guitar + toaster" into a search engine :facepalm:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 15, 2016, 12:52:49 AM
Shame about the hookers MJMP.

I can't have any either or gfriend would kick my knackers in!!!

although if I was single and the hookers were clean and FREE it would be great hahahahhaa  I'll stop now about hookers  :facepalm:

ok ok

Don't think I'm silly (I can upgrade to furman when I am rich  :thumb-up:)

I am buying on of these in the next week.

Which has the best spec, the Art does not have an info on the surge protection time or maximum surge current where as Phonic does.  Also the Art has 15AMP circuit breaker where as the phonic has 10amps.  I could change that fuse out to a higher one right?

Ok thoughts guys!!



https://phonic.app.boxcn.net/shared/l3hi1f6x2p (https://phonic.app.boxcn.net/shared/l3hi1f6x2p)


http://artproaudio.com/downloads/specsheets/ss_pb4x4.pdf (http://artproaudio.com/downloads/specsheets/ss_pb4x4.pdf)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 15, 2016, 02:18:24 AM
Girlfriends and hookers,bad combo  :lol:

I think both have 10 amp breakers,the 15A is for the US.Now 10A is about 2400VA so should be more then enough.

As far as specs go,ART no info it seems.Phonic does,but for line noise reduction it's not even half of that of a furman.
Nor the ART or the phonic have an overvoltage protection and both have spike protection with VDR's.

I would go for the phonic since it has rack lights.For the rest i think the specs are the same.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 15, 2016, 03:51:25 AM
Would I not notice a reduction in noise at this level of attenuation?


When would voltage be running higher than normal?  What is the difference in spike protection and what you mention?

Nor the ART or the phonic have an overvoltage protection and both have spike protection with VDR's.

I could may be push boat out and get the lowest model of furman  PL-8 C E
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 15, 2016, 04:16:00 AM
not sure if the low furman is better the Art or Phonic actually.

is this spec any better?

http://www.adamhall.com/en/Adam_Hall_19_Parts_PCS_10_-_Power_Conditioner.html (http://www.adamhall.com/en/Adam_Hall_19_Parts_PCS_10_-_Power_Conditioner.html)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 15, 2016, 02:17:27 PM
PL-8 C E has better specs and is almost the same as mine except it has no voltage meter.(but neither do the other brands you mention).

Spikes see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_spike
Overvoltage is if the actual RMS voltage is to high ,let's say 280Vac vs normal 230-240Vac.

The adamhall has the worst specs of them all.

Here's some explanation about EMI   http://electronicdesign.com/energy/understanding-emi-noise-power-system-design
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 18, 2016, 01:51:59 AM
well I got a phonic, I knew I could get a steal on ebay you see.

This can be my entry into Power Conditioners.  I'm hoping for noticeable noise reduction so fingers crossed.

If this works out I can save up for a furman and then move the phonic into the studio.

http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/phonic-ppc9000e-540996.jpg (http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/phonic-ppc9000e-540996.jpg)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 18, 2016, 02:31:22 PM
Great let us know how it went.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 19, 2016, 12:25:55 AM
MJMP do you know of a smaller PC? 

I was trying to advise our bass player to get one but he would only need like two plugs.  Is there a smaller version of a pc or do they all come in 19" rack style?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 19, 2016, 06:34:55 AM
I think most of them come in a 19" but i tought i saw (dare i say it  ::) ) a smaller furman.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 19, 2016, 09:20:15 AM
Yes I know the one but I dunno if it does the same thing.  It's in a block style.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 19, 2016, 12:59:44 PM
From what i recall it did.But i guess a 19" would be easier??That is if he has some 19" gear.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 20, 2016, 02:59:00 AM
no he has a head to two cabs, no rack or 19" in sight.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 20, 2016, 09:35:58 AM
Well i guess it's time you introduce him to racks  :lol:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 21, 2016, 07:39:23 AM
He's not into gear, I have to work his bass amp for him.  I'm the only one  in the band into the science.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 21, 2016, 08:39:38 AM
I know the feeling  :lol:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 31, 2016, 04:37:39 AM
hahahaha it's annoying isn't it MJMP?  f**king bassists!  Drummers are even worse. "Metronome?.... whats that?"

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways, I got the PC.  Seems good.  Could I tell if it was quieter?  Um I dunno, I should have A-B'd shouldn't I?  I think it was you know.  I turned all the same shit on that is normally on.  And the lights underneath our floor, from the floor below where on also.  These lights always cause awful noise issues with our stuff and we have to turn them off all the time.

I'll A-B next week.

I will say it was handy as hell having one switch to turn everything on and off.  I could also see the power from our mains was at a constant 230v using the meter on the PC.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Peter H. Boer on January 31, 2016, 07:39:09 AM
hahahaha it's annoying isn't it MJMP?  f**king bassists!  Drummers are even worse. "Metronome?.... whats that?"

Hey, I take exception to that, you've hurt my feelings now  >:D
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 31, 2016, 10:24:48 AM
hahahaha it's annoying isn't it MJMP?  f**king bassists!  Drummers are even worse. "Metronome?.... whats that?"

Hey, I take exception to that, you've hurt my feelings now  >:D

Peter your the exception to the rule  :lol:

I remember years ago we had a gig and the bassplayer comes to me and says,my rig isn't working.I said i'll have a look,what did he do,(he had a jcm800 100W bass head,a 4*10 and 2*15 cab),he plugged the one output of the marshall into the other output of the marshall and he plugged the 4*10 into 2*15.And i was like,dude really??  :facepalm: ::)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on January 31, 2016, 11:34:00 AM
hahahaha it's annoying isn't it MJMP?  f**king bassists!  Drummers are even worse. "Metronome?.... whats that?"

Hey, I take exception to that, you've hurt my feelings now  >:D

oh no no I only meant uhhhhhhhhh the Irish bassists lol

Ok Ok I'm sorry, some of them know their stuff, others like the guy in my band knows how to play but not how to work his amp.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rnolan on February 01, 2016, 04:19:04 AM
hahahaha it's annoying isn't it MJMP?  f**king bassists!  Drummers are even worse. "Metronome?.... whats that?"

Hey, I take exception to that, you've hurt my feelings now  >:D

Peter your the exception to the rule  :lol:

I remember years ago we had a gig and the bassplayer comes to me and says,my rig isn't working.I said i'll have a look,what did he do,(he had a jcm800 100W bass head,a 4*10 and 2*15 cab),he plugged the one output of the marshall into the other output of the marshall and he plugged the 4*10 into 2*15.And i was like,dude really??  :facepalm: ::)
And how was that gonna work  :facepalm: LoL
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on February 01, 2016, 05:08:26 AM
I've heard equally retarded stories.

There is always the old "shit my amp is broke, it wont turn on!!!! aaaaaaaaaahhh..................oh no wait the power is not on at the wall  :facepalm:"

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on February 01, 2016, 10:56:55 AM
Well i'm glad i'm not alone. :lol:

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MikeB on February 01, 2016, 12:02:38 PM
I remember freaking out at Richard's place recently.  No sound from the amp!  Power on, all the leads connected, lights are on.  Why oh why do i rely on this bloody fragile antique gear? How much is this going to cost?  Then i notice that i haven't actually plugged the lead into the guitar.
Combination of  :facepalm: and  :whoohoo!:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Soloist on February 01, 2016, 12:14:33 PM
HAHAHAHA!  :lol: I think we have all been there. One time I walked out on the stage and was suppose to start an intro and WTF? No sound, took me a minute to realize I had forgotten to select an amp on my switcher. After that I always program the first song of a set to default on start up.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on February 02, 2016, 12:33:12 AM
I remember freaking out at Richard's place recently.  No sound from the amp!  Power on, all the leads connected, lights are on.  Why oh why do i rely on this bloody fragile antique gear? How much is this going to cost?  Then i notice that i haven't actually plugged the lead into the guitar.
Combination of  :facepalm: and  :whoohoo!:

Mike we've all done that............................oh no, I wasn't supposed to admit that right  :facepalm:

One time at a gig I was using my Crate Power Block Amps.  I was using one at each side of the stage so because of this I only needed to use each amp in mono as opposed to the stereo as they are stereo amps themselves.  Well When you connect into this amp and use it in mono you need to plug into the left side for mono use.  Ok so uess what happened when I turned all my shit on and I had no sound?  On each amp I f**king well plugged into the right side on each amp!  And I sat and wondered why I had no sound.  I basically didn't realise this until weeks after what had happened.  I managed to play the gig with stupidly low output by switching the amps to stereo mode which allowed some sound to come out via the right channel but of course it was really low because the impedance of the cabs I was using made for very low output and therefore the efficiency was like a quarter of what I should have been getting!  The sound man had to pretty much power me entirely via the PA.  I basically had to play th entire gig with no sound all because I plugged into the right channel on both amps!  It was a really important show for us as well and if I blew that gig we'd have embarrassed oursleves!  Thankfully we ploughed through and delivered a good show!  But yeah right channel............... :facepalm:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 13, 2016, 01:27:56 AM
Remember I had a noise issue?  I can't remember where I posted that topic, but anyways it developed into this thread so I got a power conditioner.

Well all I can say is I still got noise.  Even with everything hooked up to the PC.  Any ideas guys?  I really do not want to buy a furman PC if it isn't going to solve the issue, and I don't think it will to be honest.

The noise is a loud kinda hum,  not as low sounding as a hum you get when you put your guitar next to the amp, that's a different avoidable hum altogether, this one is a constant, even with humbuckers.  It was really bad last band practice.  Not convinced it's my gear if I'm honest.  As I think it comes and goes.  It's doing my head in!  Any ideas?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 13, 2016, 01:32:20 AM
Can you explain your setup, so what do you use in the chain and how it's all connected?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 13, 2016, 10:03:36 AM
Guitar > GT5 Input > effects send > preamp > effects return > GT5 Output > Amp Input > Amp Output > Cabs

Nothing of the ordinary.

If I turn the pre in the loop off the noise is gone, but that is only because it is clean.  I'm pretty sure distorted tones from the pedal have the same noise.

What is strange is the noise is not always there.  I remember one time I fooled myself thinking trying different plug outlets would help the problem, but it doesn't seem to matter now.

My FX unit is the only unit not connected to PC.  So to test it I moved it very close to the rack so I could plug it into the PC and have everything powered via the PC.  No difference.  I know the PC is not a great one, but I really do not think buying a furman is going to take away this noise, it's so loud when not playing and I have yet to come across anything any piece of gear that can just solve an noise issue just like that.  I am almost certain I have played my gear in the same room without the noise, just a tiny bit of acceptable hiss.  It's something in my room but wtf it is I have no idea.  And if it's not in my room it's in the building where we practice.

I can't for a while now as I'm visiting Scotland for a few days this week, but when I get back I shall record the noise.

I thought perhaps it was my gear using the same sockets as the PA in the room and mixers, but I moved to a completely different set of sockets and I still had the noise.

I f**king HATE NOISE! :facepalm:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Kim on June 13, 2016, 12:38:55 PM
I f**king HATE NOISE! :facepalm:

Did you try lifting a Ground?  :dunno:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 13, 2016, 01:28:31 PM
Is it hum or hiss you hear ?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 13, 2016, 03:02:20 PM
Hey Gang,

   I've been reading this entire thread from the beginning, and trying to formulate the possible culprits in RG's rack.
   For one thing, I noticed a post by MJMP earlier in this thread about the rack cabling, where he recommends running the power to one side with MIDI, and the Audio on the other. I disagree with this :nono:

   Run the power cables on the left side, audio on the right, and all control cables, (i.e. MIDI, Effects switching), out the center of the rack. I believe it's a bad idea to run DC and AC cables along side each other. so I isolate them. Along this same line of thinking, I would recommend any loose cable on the floor such as the guitar cables, MIDI cables, etc. should not be coiled on the floor. I know it's neater that way, but coiling audio cables even though they are shielded, will create an induction field and this will introduce hum. The same thing will happen if you run audio cables along side any DC voltage cables including MIDI, so always try to route them apart from each other, and if they have to come in close proximity to each other, then have them intersect each other rather than have them parallel at all possible points.

   The hum RG is experiencing sounds to me like ground loop hum. This is commonly caused in racks when using gear from different manufacturers. Not all companies ground their products the same way. so there can be an issue because of this. a few things I do when I'm building a rack to help prevent this is:
  Cover the rack rails with electrical tape on both sides, and use the tip of an Exacto knife to cut out the holes for the rack screws. Just cut them out big enough for the screws to thread in cleanly.
  Use the small, flat rubber feet on the underside of each rack unit to help keep them isolated from each other. These are readily available, and have adhesive already applied to them.
  Leave a slight gap between rack units in the rack so that the front panels do not come in contact with each other. IF it's not possible to do this, then again, electrical tape is your friend. Apply a strip of tape to the underside of each unit with the edge of it seated flush with the bottom edge of the face panel to get the isolation between each unit.
  Use nylon isolation washers with your rack mounting screws, as this will eliminate the common ground in the rack rails.

   These little tricks may or may not help, but it certainly won't hurt anything. Without seeing your rack system, and being able to get my hands on it, it's difficult to pinpoint where the hum is coming from.

    The older Forum members would remember an essay I posted in the old Forum about rack building, complete with pictures at various stages of the build from start to finish. That was pretty comprehensive in regards to minimizing ground loop hum. It seems I may have to write another one like that and include pics and possibly a few short videos if I can manage it with my phone, then post it here.
   Racks can be a blessing or a curse. The bigger racks get, the more chances of problems can occur, but there is always a solution.

   Does anyone remember Joey's, (4x12), rack hum problem? That one was a mind-phukker :lol:

    Harley 8)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Kim on June 13, 2016, 04:40:33 PM
My bassist recently had an issue with all that noise.  (ART rack preamp/fx unit > Behringer bass head)  I mentioned a Ground Lift to him, and he tried it with success.   So...I had to mention the Ground Lift here.   

The older Forum members would remember an essay I posted in the old Forum about rack building, complete with pictures at various stages of the build from start to finish. That was pretty comprehensive in regards to minimizing ground loop hum. It seems I may have to write another one like that and include pics and possibly a few short videos if I can manage it with my phone, then post it here.

That my Friend, would be an awesome topic to have here.  :bow:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 14, 2016, 01:56:05 AM
Is it hum or hiss you hear ?

When the noise I have issues with there it's closer to hum.  Defo not a hiss.  But it doesn't sound like the hum you get when you place your guitar real close to your amp.

I f**king HATE NOISE! :facepalm:

Did you try lifting a Ground?  :dunno:

I dunno how to do that, only on equipment that has a ground lift switch (like my old Randal solid state head I used to use). 

I know on my FX unit, the third centre prong of the plugs are plastic and seem to have no earth wire??  It's like that on all the Boss GT pedals I have ever owned.

Also randomly the first MP1 I bought, did not have the earth wire connected to the plug.  And I just left it like that.  But have since sold it as it sounded like poo (and then bought an 3TM and another standard MP1).


   The hum RG is experiencing sounds to me like ground loop hum. This is commonly caused in racks when using gear from different manufacturers. Not all companies ground their products the same way. so there can be an issue because of this. a few things I do when I'm building a rack to help prevent this is:
  Cover the rack rails with electrical tape on both sides, and use the tip of an Exacto knife to cut out the holes for the rack screws. Just cut them out big enough for the screws to thread in cleanly.
  Use the small, flat rubber feet on the underside of each rack unit to help keep them isolated from each other. These are readily available, and have adhesive already applied to them.
  Leave a slight gap between rack units in the rack so that the front panels do not come in contact with each other. IF it's not possible to do this, then again, electrical tape is your friend. Apply a strip of tape to the underside of each unit with the edge of it seated flush with the bottom edge of the face panel to get the isolation between each unit.
  Use nylon isolation washers with your rack mounting screws, as this will eliminate the common ground in the rack rails.

Ok I could try some of these, put perhaps a ground lift is also something that needs doin.  I noticed my poweramp comes with those little rubber feet you mentioned to stop it touching whatever is beneath it.

I actually think I am using nylon washers already.  Tape will also help then yes?

Do I need something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm05u6vlO7E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm05u6vlO7E)
and send one of my signal from my stereo FX unit through it, then have that come out the other side and go to the stereo guitar amp I use?  I will admit this guy has buzz, not hum.

I'm going to mention all the plugs I have that have ground pins,
Power Amp
Pre Amp
Power Conditioner
FX Pedal as far as I know has only a live and neutral wire.

Do we still think I have ground loop issue?

here is another
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YM1iwC6vhg
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YM1iwC6vhg)

this noise sounds nothing like the noise I get which is much lower in frequency, this guy has buzz, not hum in my opinion.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 14, 2016, 05:48:20 AM
Hi RG,

    Before you go investing in a hum eliminator, it might be a good idea to determine if the ground loop hum is actually the cause. You could try getting a ground lift adapter and use that on each piece of equipment, one at a time to see which one is causing the hum. Or, you could simply try going through your rig starting with the basics; i.e. Guitar, Amp, Speakers....and see if this hum is there with just the bare essentials, if not, add another piece to the signal chain. If the hum appears when you connect a certain piece to the circuit, then you'll know what the source of the noise is.
     I'm only guessing that it could be ground loop hum. As I mentioned in my post, I'm not there to get hands-on with the gear and track down the problem. I would try to eliminate all the simple possible causes first. I would even check the solder connections in the audio cables to make sure there isn't something like a loose strand of copper wire that could be laying across both leads, or even close to it. It could be something just that simple.
    The best suggestion I can make at this point is to go with the one piece at a time approach to your rig, and see at which point you begin to get the hum, then we'll try to figure out how to sort it out from there.

   Harley 8)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 14, 2016, 06:02:13 AM
ok man good idea.

I had a look for a uk ground lift adapter for plugs and I can't find any.  I've seen the american version though.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 14, 2016, 09:59:55 AM
Rg, didnt' you say that the GT5 didn't have a ground (or better earth) connection?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 14, 2016, 12:09:03 PM
That's correct MJMP, I can confirm it has two wires, neutral and live (blue and a brown).  This particular GT5 I rewired the plug myself as I needed the standard boss plug adapter for another GT"" Series pedal I was selling.  So that left me with a GT5 European mainland style plug on the end.  So I cut that off and stripped the wires and wired a proper UK style plug, but obviously the earth ground pin was left blank since there was only two wires.

Does this have some significance?  Let me guess no ground loop?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 14, 2016, 01:43:00 PM
maybe not.

If you take out the GT-5 and plug the guitar straight into the preamp and plug the preamp into the power amp do you still have this noise?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 14, 2016, 01:48:56 PM
    I think that just means it's likely to fry the wall wart in the event of a power surge. With no earth ground, it's out of the loop in that respect, but it can be a source of noise if there is any kind of short in it.
    Since wall warts are cheap, and easily replaced, they didn't include an earth ground on most of them. I would try just adding one piece of equipment at a time to your guitar rig until the noise appears. That would at least get you close to the source if there are no ground-lift adapters available.

    Harley 8)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 14, 2016, 02:13:20 PM
maybe not.

If you take out the GT-5 and plug the guitar straight into the preamp and plug the preamp into the power amp do you still have this noise?

Shit I shall have to try this wont I,  ok that's one test I need to do.  Should I also make an equally high gain patch using the GT5 by itself running into the amp

    I think that just means it's likely to fry the wall wart in the event of a power surge. With no earth ground, it's out of the loop in that respect, but it can be a source of noise if there is any kind of short in it.
    Since wall warts are cheap, and easily replaced, they didn't include an earth ground on most of them. I would try just adding one piece of equipment at a time to your guitar rig until the noise appears. That would at least get you close to the source if there are no ground-lift adapters available.

    Harley 8)
?

seems the only thing for it.  I'm just confused as the noise is not always present, it certainly is not a noise I get at home, and I didn't get that noise at home using the exact same preamp (I tested it at home when I first bought it you see before I moved it to rehearsal room)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 14, 2016, 03:24:17 PM
I don't think that the GT5 uses a wall wart, from the pics I saw there is cable coming out of the GT5 that plugs straight into a wall plug correct?

BTW RG is the noise also present when you turn down the guitar volume to zero?

From what I can tell you use some cable length, a few meter from the guitar to the GT5,then a few from the GT5 send to the preamp, then you need to come back to the GT5 return and then back to the power amp, am I correct?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 12:35:40 AM
Yes correct GT5 has it's power supply built in unlike any of the other GT units.  Handy!

Yeah no the noise goes away when I turn down the guitar.  I think it does anyway  :dunno:  Actually I can't remember now.  What does that determine?  I think it goes away.

Yeah I use long cables,  and now I think about it, one I'm using is not the higher quality stuff I make my cables from.  It's just a generic Stagg cable I bought years ago so isn't shielded as well as the other cables I make.  I had no lead on hand when I first started putting the a preamp in the FX loop so I just grabbed that older cable as it was lying about.  In my experience, the noise I am getting is not that kind of noise though so shit cable or not in the chain I do not think it's the cable.

And my guitar is shielded well also.  Before that it buzzed a lot, shielding stopped a lot of that or reduced it significantly.  It also is quiet as a mouse in my home setup.  But in rehearsal room its got this shit hum in the backgroud and sometimes is not there but most of the time it is.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 15, 2016, 03:28:30 AM
Could you check if it goes away when the guitar vol is zero?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 04:01:48 AM
Ok I think it does, last week I wanted to see if the noise would go away if I connected the GT5 to the PC in case that was the issue.  So I dragged the pedal over closer so that the plug of the GT5 could connect into one of the vacant supplies on the PC.
When I then turned everything back on and tested I specifically remember I had to roll the volume of the guitar back up again, and the noise came back.  What does this mean?

I might try and see if I can test the rig this evening again.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 15, 2016, 05:13:11 AM
Well this could mean you have some sort of electro magnetic pollution that is picked up by the PU's of your guitar.
Do you have fluorescent lights in that room?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 05:51:51 AM
There are flourescent light in the room, but they were'nt on.

Sometimes flourescent lights from the floor below cause noise, more for the bass guitar, and we have had to go down stairs and turn them off before in order to get rid of the noise.

Another thing, a taxi depot is across the road, say 100meters, I have heard their radio shit can cause issues.  However I have never heard anything like people talking through my stuff.  I will record this noise and let everyone hear it, and also perform some tests and hopefully begin process off elimination.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 15, 2016, 06:24:40 AM
Hey RG,

   Okay, I thought your GT5 had a wall wart adapter, my mistake.
   So what you're telling us is that you only get the noise at certain places you plug in at. You don't get it at home, but you do get it most of the time at your rehearsal spot. There could be other things plugged into the circuit that you happen to be plugged into. (Neon lights, appliances, video equipment, or maybe even something like a heat exchanger of some sort).
   What sort of establishment is your rehearsal room in?

    Harley 8)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 06:49:19 AM
Hey RG,

   Okay, I thought your GT5 had a wall wart adapter, my mistake.
   So what you're telling us is that you only get the noise at certain places you plug in at. You don't get it at home, but you do get it most of the time at your rehearsal spot. There could be other things plugged into the circuit that you happen to be plugged into. (Neon lights, appliances, video equipment, or maybe even something like a heat exchanger of some sort).
   What sort of establishment is your rehearsal room in?

    Harley 8)

Well I'll give you an example, at home, I use a GT5 also with either a Peavey Rockmaster or an MP1 in the GT5 loop and I do not get that noise at home using same guitar.  The noise I get is regular hiss that I dial out using noise reduction, but it's not a lot of noise anyways so I don't need much.

In my live rig, the only real difference is I plug into an amp as opposed to a multitrack.  At home I monitor via the multitrack.

Um well (and I shall take photos), say there are two wall sockets, then I run an extension chord from one socket to my gear, then plug the PC into it.  However in the other wall socket, I might have a mixer and PA plugged in.

I figured perhaps it might be something like this, so I ran the extension chord from sockets on the other side of the room and plugged my PC in to that instead, and I still get noise.

The establishment is a big mill, like it used to be a linen mill.  It has since been converted into rooms, and many things go on in the rooms.  Some clubs are there, weights etc some business are on ground floor, like for cars tyres, and some random artists, and also a few moire rehearsal rooms for othe bands.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 02:16:31 PM
The noise see attached clip

this is everything normal, a patch on GT5 including the preamp in loop, I bang the floor to vibrate guitar to show how the noise gets worse.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 02:28:33 PM
guitar plugged into just the peavey and nothing else, then into the amp.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 02:30:49 PM
the noise from a patch made using a pre in the loop of GT5 then switching to a patch made solely on the GT5 with full on board hi gain amp model and od in front (so no preamp in the loop) then back to a patch with the preamp in the loop

noise disappears when I switch to a GT5 only patch, I get hiss instead but that's way more acceptable.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 02:36:48 PM
Ok then the BIG F U C K ING revelation!

I decided in an experiment, detach the earth on the peavey rockmasters plug and leave it disconnected from the third centre pin.

The clip below starts off with guitar plugged in, the noise has really reduced.  Then I unplug the guitar and there is virtually no noise.  Then I plug it in and some noise but a lot less that the first clip I posted called "noise 2"

Noise 2 has my normal patch, with preamp in the loop and guitar attached.  At one point I take the guitar out of the GT5 altogether and there is still noise.

Note also that when I have the guitar plugged in everything is the exact same from when I recorded the crazy hum noise, so the volume on the amp you name it, yet detaching the earth from the peavey plug dropped the noise a shed load and taking the guitar out made it zero noise altogether where as before taking the guitar out and having the peavey still in the loop there was noise.

Now the big question, how can I have this earth wire detached safely?  Do I need it?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 15, 2016, 03:21:13 PM
Just did a FFT analysis on the noise2-wav and I see mostly harmonics of 50 Hz,the biggest spikes are the 2nd up to the 8th harmonic.
50Hz   -81dB
100Hz -47dB
150Hz -36dB
200Hz -26dB
250Hz -32dB
300Hz -32dB
350Hz -23dB
400Hz -34dB
450Hz -32dB

So this seems to me it has got something to do with the power grid and ground loops, or a bad or no earth connection. From what you say the guitar does pick up stuff but also there's a nasty ground loop. Another possibility is a bad cable.

For safety reasons you should never detach the earth connection.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 15, 2016, 03:31:17 PM
Ahhh.... a mental image begins to form... ;)

   If you could make a comparison to the noise you are hearing presently, (where you are), to the noise you hear in the rehearsal room, are they similar?
   I'm seeing a lot of variables with what you describe in the rehearsal room, i.e. neon signs, refrigeration units, small appliances, house sound systems, dance floor lighting systems, and Juke boxes, or house music systems. With the businesses, there would be usually Flourescent lights, servers and network systems, possible an HVAC system in the building. In the automotive shops, there would be air compressors and maybe Halogen light stands, not to mention any electrical power tools and diagnostic units.
  If the circuit you are plugged into connects with any one or a combination of any of these things, this could be what is causing the noise you are hearing if you are on the same circuit. Keep in mind, that I'm just trying to consider the possible causes for your noise issues from across the pond here, because it reminds me of a similar and very weird situation I had once many years ago at one of the places my band was playing in.
  I was at a sound check at one of the pubs downtown and was using my smaller rack rig at the time which was the MP-1, MT100, Digitech DSP128, dbx Noise gates(2), S-1000, and Digitizer4, with a Dunlop Wah, and MXR Phase 90, and MC-1 controller and a couple of FS-2 switches on the floor, through an old Fender 2x12 cab with Altec Lansing speakers. As we started to sound check, I had this obnoxious low end buzz coming through my rig, that I just couldn't get rid of. I thought maybe something was going bad one of my units, since this is the same pub that a couple of years earlier, fried both of my dbx noise gates when I played there without a Furman power conditioner. (I've never played without the Furman since then).
  Let me give a brief description of this pub. Originally, it used to be a neighborhood beer garden as we call them here, located on the corner of this city block, that over the years, the owner bought out the next two buildings beside it, and knocked out the connecting walls to expand the pub. At his point in time, he only had the one building next to it, which was where the stage was situated at. As I walked from the stage to the part where the original pub was, I had my guitar still strapped on, ( I was using wireless at the time), I noticed the buzz got louder. I was going to call home and ask my GF at the time to run my stand by rig down to me, because I thought something else had fried in my rack. As I would get closer to the original horse shoe bar, that buzz would get VERY obnoxious! Keep in mind, these use to be two separate buildings that were later remodeled and joined together. I asked the owner if I could come behind the bar, and when I did, it got louder. I looked around at what I was next to, and behind me was a neon Miller Genuine Draught sign, plugged into the wall with a wall-wart AC adapter. I reached down and pulled the wall-wart out of the wall, and my rig went dead silent. I turned up the volume, and hit a chord, and it sang like it was just out of the box! The owner and I just looked at each other, completely amazed at how that affected my amp from across the pub. Naturally, we left that unplugged that night, and played a great show, and sounded totally wicked!!! :thumb-up:
   There is no way the two circuits should have seen each other, but somehow they did. I don't know if this is any kind of help with your current situation, but sometimes, the weirdest things that seem completely unlikely can actually be a problem. I believe it's possible, due to your particular gear set up, that you might be running across something similar to that situation. Being a guitar player, I never imagined I needed to be an electrician too, but having a fundamental knowledge of electrical wiring and household circuitry certainly doesn't hurt.
    It helps me to be observant of what's being used around me, and being aware of what else might be plugged into the circuit I'm connected to, to try and resolve noise issues without having to spend a ton of money on expensive gear. It sounds like your rig is sensitive to other things in the circuit just like my rack can be at times.

     Harley 8)

   I was typing this while you were posting all the sound clips. Definitely a bad ground loop is what I'm picking up from it.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 03:40:04 PM

So this seems to me it has got something to do with the power grid and ground loops, or a bad or no earth connection. From what you say the guitar does pick up stuff but also there's a nasty ground loop. Another possibility is a bad cable.

For safety reasons you should never detach the earth connection.

There definitely an earth connection.  I swapped the shit quality cable out for a better one, made no difference to noise.  I did this way at the beginning.  I just put my cable back the way it was after I tried this.

Surely the fact that disconnecting the earth on one device and the noise reducing like 70-80% proves its a ground loop?

Also I have just read this

"One solution is to isolate the physical ground connections between every audio device. For rack-mounted equipment you can use plastic isolation tabs such as Humfrees. These clever gadgets physically isolate the metal case of each device from the rack's metal rails, preventing the devices from touching each other. Another possibility is to buy ground lift adapters that disconnect the grounding pin from the power cord of each piece of equipment. However, one device must be grounded properly. In my studio I have ground lifters on everything except my main mixer. The entire system is grounded through the audio wire shields that connect to the mixer, but only the mixer is connected to the power line's ground through the third grounding pin of its power cord."

So will I not be safe so long as my Amp is earthed?

Harley, some of what you are saying is true, perhaps not all those appliances are running in the building, but lots of similar things are, but not always the same time I play, so perhaps the noise in the power varies from time to time.  Even though this might have something to do with the general noise, I still firmly think that there is an issue with the ground loop.  It was the last think I tried, a total whim!  I turned everything off, unplugged the preamp from the PC, unscrewed the plug, detached the earth, plugged it back in, powered everything up and BAM!  Reduced noise.  To make sure I was not going insane I reattached it and left it reattached, and I even recorded that too and guess what?  NOISE!  Reattaching the earth gave me noise!

Perhaps this explains why I bought an MP1 before that had the earth wire disconnected.

I still obviously do not want to take any risks so how can I safely eliminate an earth in my setup?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 15, 2016, 03:50:05 PM
So will I not be safe so long as my Amp is earthed?

   Generally, I think the first thing that is plugged into the wall would be the main thing I would be concerned about keeping the Earth ground on. In my case, that would be the Furman. I run everything off the Furman after that, ground lift or not, because I believe it and myself should be protected by the PC.
    I could be wrong about this, but so far, I've had good results.

     Harley 8)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 03:59:30 PM
So will I not be safe so long as my Amp is earthed?

   Generally, I think the first thing that is plugged into the wall would be the main thing I would be concerned about keeping the Earth ground on. In my case, that would be the Furman. I run everything off the Furman after that, ground lift or not, because I believe it and myself should be protected by the PC.
    I could be wrong about this, but so far, I've had good results.

     Harley 8)

As I was waiting on replies I came across something whilst searching for these "ground lift adapters".  Here is what I read 

oh and I have everything running through my power conditioner except the boss GT5, although I tried it through the PC as well last Saturday.

"A DI box is a very handy thing to have. By using a transformer in the signal path, there is now no direct electrical signal path from the input to the output and can therefore be a great way of eliminating ground loops. Many also have a ground lift switch to uncouple the audio earth from the electrical earth.

What you must never, ever do -ever- is remove the electrical earth from any of your equipment, power supplies or plugs. That would be a very, very silly thing to do.
"


And I have a good DI box that has a ground lift, perhaps if I put this in the effects loop of the boss gt5 and have the output of the preamp run through it before it hits the boss return I can lift the ground???  Just guessing here.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 15, 2016, 04:04:30 PM
I read that one too.

Are you using the DI with your guitar amp? If so, does it help with the noise there?
You could try it in the effects loop, but it may cut your signal out of the return too much. Possibly between the MP-1 and the loop?

I'm not really sure because I've never used a DI in this manner.

    Harley 8)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 04:15:52 PM
No neither of I I'm just going by what it suggests you can use DI for in that article
http://blog.reddogmusic.co.uk/2013/06/21/getting-rid-of-that-ground-loop-its-about-humming-time/ (http://blog.reddogmusic.co.uk/2013/06/21/getting-rid-of-that-ground-loop-its-about-humming-time/)

I think that means it acts in the same principal as those hum elimination devices such as these

http://shop.clubtek.co.uk/images/products/products-from-easify/sound-equipment/Alctron%20hum%20eliminator%20AL6100l.jpg (http://shop.clubtek.co.uk/images/products/products-from-easify/sound-equipment/Alctron%20hum%20eliminator%20AL6100l.jpg)

Dammit my DI doesn't have a 1/4" jack out put, only an XLR which means I couldn't connect in the way I suggested, perhaps I should look out for once that has ground lift and an unbalanced output.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 15, 2016, 04:19:14 PM
I believe all DI boxes will have balanced outputs because they are designed to go directly into a PA channel strip.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 15, 2016, 04:29:53 PM
yup I know, but some have both kinds of outputs (and not just a direct link output either)

and as we've both read they can be used to solve ground loop issues or so it said in that article.  I only contemplated using one as I have one here that has ground lift function so I figured I could it to good use since I don't need any unbalanced signals converted to balanced

this one has a Hi Z and Lo Z output and ground lift
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-channel-DI-Box-with-mono-stereo-Switch/371594704534?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D421b326570d14f02b78381b74abe8bd4%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D11%26rkt%3D20%26sd%3D251901950762 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-channel-DI-Box-with-mono-stereo-Switch/371594704534?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D421b326570d14f02b78381b74abe8bd4%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D11%26rkt%3D20%26sd%3D251901950762)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 15, 2016, 04:38:49 PM
Yes, I think I might have seen something like that a log time ago, but I believe the 1/4" output is also a balanced out, (TRS).  The ground lift should work on that too.
I've never used DI's like that because I've had Microcabs for that application whenever I needed to go direct. (No ground lift on those  :( ).

    Harley 8)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 16, 2016, 04:21:10 AM
And you have to make sure that the DI box has a transformer inside, you also have transformer less DI boxes.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rnolan on June 16, 2016, 07:54:36 AM
I believe all DI boxes will have balanced outputs because they are designed to go directly into a PA channel strip.
One of the main reasons for balanced out on a DI box is to lower the impedance to 600ohms so the signal can go the distance from stage box to FOH via the multicore (snake) without loosing too much top end but also to keep RF noise down (particularly for inst level signals).
Sorry to come in late on this, I haven't read it all yet, will try to over the weekend and add anything I can think of.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 16, 2016, 01:50:06 PM
Yep and this might raise another problem, since the impedance has changed so will the voltages. So what you actually need is a 1 on 1 transformer.
This looks good  http://www.zzounds.com/item--EBTHE2PKG
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 19, 2016, 04:46:07 PM
Well I already mentioned a similar device earlier.  And its a two transformers.   I used to own one also but I sold it as I had no need for it then.  Luckily I won one this weekend for £4.27p. Lol. See this


http://www.zzounds.com/item--EBTHE2PKG (http://www.zzounds.com/item--EBTHE2PKG)





Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 19, 2016, 05:31:36 PM
Well that's cheap  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 20, 2016, 04:03:40 AM
Yeah man it was, I saw a couple on ebay and figured if I keep an eye on one of these and get it cheap then I'm taking a very cheap gamble if say it doesn't work out.

Everything I have read say's there are two passive transformers inside.  I have also read about that very, very expensive ebtech hum eliminator you posted  a link too MJMP.

So now I'm just left with the question, at what place in my chain do I put such a device?  On the outputs of my GT5 then through the Clean box II and into the amp inputs?

Second question?  How come none of you guys need one of these devices?  Please explain as I feel a little like something I'm doing is wrong if I need another box to place in my signal chain.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 20, 2016, 06:00:22 AM
I think you have to do it with trial and error, use different places to put it i and see what gives the best results.

Why we don't need, well that's easy we have a Furmann  :lol: Nah just kidding. I also have a slight hum in my signal but not nearly as bad as you have. If it works out for you I might buy one of these too to check out.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 20, 2016, 06:23:30 AM
does your noise gate shut off the hum?  It's weird you only have slight hum when you probably have a lot more grounds than I do.

Tell me, when Furman say "Isolated Banks - Isolated outlet banks minimize inter-component interference and noise contamination."

isn't that supposed to protect from ground looping?  Or am I all wrong with this?  Isolated power supply sounds to me like safe ground lifts so there will not be loops with all the other items linked to the PC.  I could be wrong.

Yeah I figured if the Art Clean box doesn't work out for me, hey what the hell, it was a 4.27 gamble.  It gets good reviews, I just have not read about it being used with rack gear is my only worry.


edit:

Some more things, I found a thread where some guy says buy super expensive hum eliminator

http://forum.tcelectronic.com/topic/9239/art-cleanbox-hum-eliminator/ (http://forum.tcelectronic.com/topic/9239/art-cleanbox-hum-eliminator/)
he recommends this
http://www.radialeng.com/twiniso.php (http://www.radialeng.com/twiniso.php)

I personally don't think it could be worth it.

I also found the reviews for this Behringer hum box thing and from the sounds of it people use it in similar setups to my own, so this holds promise for me using the Art Clean Box II
http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_microhd_hd400.htm (http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_microhd_hd400.htm)

The reviews for this seem quite good also, but as soon as you start hearing someone saying "no you need to spend much more money or your sound will sound like shit" you start having doubts.

Opinions welcome on this guys.  If I don't notice signal degradation them I wont give a toss.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 20, 2016, 06:48:53 AM
Yes the noise gate has no problem with it.

Problem with ground loops is that no 2 problems are the same. Like in my rack some units are isolated from the rack and some are not. It took me some time to get it like it is now. And I got it like this with trial and error.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 20, 2016, 07:05:34 AM
Your thoughts on any of the above?

How come you might get an Art Clean box if it works for me when you have the issue solved with noise gate?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Soloist on June 20, 2016, 07:29:59 AM
Hey RG, I used that Beringer hd400 hum box a few years back. It was silver then but it did clean up the loop on my DSL40C. It wasn't perfect but did quiet it down enough to live with. Especially for the price.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 20, 2016, 07:44:51 AM
Hey RG, I used that Beringer hd400 hum box a few years back. It was silver then but it did clean up the loop on my DSL40C. It wasn't perfect but did quiet it down enough to live with. Especially for the price.

wow that's cool man, so you risked it on the cheap ass behringer and it worked.  So how come you don't need it now?

I knew this info really in the article below, but having just read this, it has now terrified me.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-what-ground-earth-loop (http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-what-ground-earth-loop)

had I not lifted the ground on my peavey rockmaster though I would never have found out for sure that I had a butt ugly earth loop.  It also scares me that the MP1 I first bought had the earth wire detached, I think I left it that way also, it's on some post on here somewhere when I was talking about the weird plug it had wired to it.  Anyways gimme the earth connection anyday over dying!

Why doesn't my boss GT5 have an earth pin guys? below, this is the way Boss GT fx pedals mains plugs are in the UK.  They are simply two prong plugs plugged into adapters, just like this

http://www.onestopbatteryshop.co.uk/product/598426/MX429822/European-to-UK-plug-adaptor---BLACK (http://www.onestopbatteryshop.co.uk/product/598426/MX429822/European-to-UK-plug-adaptor---BLACK)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 20, 2016, 08:03:50 AM
Also are you sure you have a good ground connection in the wall plugs? Could be it's not grounded at all.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Soloist on June 20, 2016, 08:29:51 AM
I was running a POD HD500 4 cable method with a Marshall DSL40C. I ended up selling that set up and going back to an all rack set up. So I didn't need the beringer any more, think I sold that too. I have never been a fan of beringer equipment but that box did the trick for me.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 20, 2016, 08:44:30 AM
Also are you sure you have a good ground connection in the wall plugs? Could be it's not grounded at all.
What you mean?  The sockets in my rehearsal room?  They are for sure grounded.

Surely disconnecting the earth wire on the peavey and noise getting reduced 70% is a sign that the wall sockets are grounded which is why I am getting hum in the recordings I posted? If there was no ground in the wall sockets disconnecting the peaveys earth on it's mains plugs would have no effect at all as it wouldn't be grounded in the first place?

Also we'd have died years ago.  Also touching guitar strings reduces usual noises from, unshielded guitars (I have a few I have not done yet) so I must be grounded.

I was running a POD HD500 4 cable method with a Marshall DSL40C. I ended up selling that set up and going back to an all rack set up. So I didn't need the beringer any more, think I sold that too. I have never been a fan of beringer equipment but that box did the trick for me.

I actually have quite a few Behringer products and I really don't mind them.  From mixers to stomp boxes, di's to rack compressors, I honestly think they're decent, some things have build quality is lacking in some products but others don't.

So you did four cable method also and had a ground loop?  Well that's that then, I guess it's a common issues with 4 cable method.  It also makes sense since I'm at least connected to two grounds via the Rockmaster and my power conditioner and when I take one away the hum goes away.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: tomy on June 20, 2016, 01:58:12 PM
Hey RG, here is a pic of french electric plug ; 1 pin is +, 1 pin is- and the hole is the ground and you have 3 wires, is that the same for you ?
I don't know if that helps but that what you 're gonna meet in july 
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 20, 2016, 03:16:41 PM
It's not until October man.  Yeah I know the Europeans continent plugs well, I have plenty of adapters for over there.  WE (over here) run on the same voltage however our plugs differ.  Ours is a bigger plug and always three pronged.  Center is earth.  I played Holland last year so I KNOW the score.  Tomy you been to any of the football for the Euros?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: tomy on June 21, 2016, 12:48:35 AM
I'm just praying everyday for a french team defeat :poop:, so they give us a breack with football. On game days,sometime things are going bad : supporters fight and ruin the city where game is, it was Marseille last time between russians and british.

In France, when it's football time, world can collapse !
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 21, 2016, 01:18:13 AM
I'm just praying everyday for a french team defeat :poop:, so they give us a breack with football. On game days,sometime things are going bad : supporters fight and ruin the city where game is, it was Marseille last time between russians and british.

In France, when it's football time, world can collapse !

Yeah personally was disgusted at the Russian British rioting.

However the Irish fans were having sing songs with the french police and cleaning up after themselves!!!  I saw this on the news last night.  Perhaps some of then rioting fans should take note and behave that way instead.  The thing that puts me off about football and going to games is it's all about drinking, and as much as I love a drink, I detest lots and lots of drunk people surrounding me and acting like idiots.

It's hard for me to keep up this tournament as both Irelands are in it, Northern Ireland and Republic.  Republic got destroyed by Belgium!!  Boooooooo MJMP!  Normally Republic are better than Northern Irleand but this tournament Northern Ireland are doing better.  However Germany might kill them tonight!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 21, 2016, 01:41:03 AM
Disconnecting the ground wire has nothing to do with how good the earth connection is, it still could be bad.In your case you  solved a ground loop in your system.
Now it seems people that use the 4 wire connection are having more problems with hum ,noise and groundloops that people that use all rack stuff.So you also have to take in account that the long wires have an influence too.

Well lucky for you I'm not interested in football.  :lol:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 21, 2016, 02:22:40 AM
You missed my point I think.

 
Quote
"Disconnecting the ground wire has nothing to do with how good the earth connection"
I didn't say it did.

Also are you sure you have a good ground connection in the wall plugs? Could be it's not grounded at all.
You are saying that I might not have a ground/good ground which is why I have noise correct? or am I picking this up wrong?

Well the point I'm making is how can I not have a ground connection when lifting an earth wire from a plug reduces noise?

If I had no ground connection lifting an earth wire wouldn't reduce the noise.

This is why I posted the audio to show that when I lift an earth connection the noise reduces.  Now I'm not expert enough to say that this means I have a ground loop issue but basing my findings on what has been said here previous and what I have read in regards to what a loop is, I would think that it's fair to assume that I do and is the cause of my hum issue.

Quote
Now it seems people that use the 4 wire connection are having more problems with hum ,noise and groundloops that people that use all rack stuff.So you also have to take in account that the long wires have an influence too.
I can't confirm that as I don't know anyone else who has noise issues or who uses the 4 cable method.  Anyone I know who has noise covers it up with noise gates.  I'm not denying that long cables have an effect on noise, however this particular hum I do not think they are the main problem (despite obviously the shielding connecting to ground), the fact remains that when I lifted the ground on the preamp the noise reduced a lot.  The noise I was left with I could happily live with.  I don't think there is anything wrong with 4 cable method.  Plenty of people use it.

Also didn't you say earlier you have hum even with all rack?


I'm not really into football either, but I take a bit of interest in international games.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 21, 2016, 06:18:39 AM
Well take a voltmeter and measure between the line and earth connection in one of the wall sockets in your rehearsal room and you should have the same voltage as you would if you measure between line and neutral.

To answer your question "Well the point I'm making is how can I not have a ground connection when lifting an earth wire from a plug reduces noise?"
Because a ground loop in this case has got nothing to do with the wall plug earth connection, it has to do with a small resistance between the multiple grounds in your system. Don't believe a good earth connection will solve all ground loop problems.

The most important thing about an earth connection is SAFETY ,so the better the connection the safer you are.
Here in Belgium the earth connection has to have an impedance of less then 30 ohms or they don't hook you up to the power grid. At my place it's 14 ohms. And you also have to have 2 residual current circuit breakers, one of 300mA for the whole system and 30mA for wet places like the kitchen, bathroom washing machine, dryer etc... .At my place almost everything goes through a 30mA just to make it more safe.

Ground loops can be a nightmare to investigate because it can be a very complex matter, read here to get an understanding about all the problems that can occur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)
http://mickpeterson.org/2014design/Info/EST016_Ground_Loops_handout.pdf


Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 21, 2016, 06:46:15 AM
To answer your question "Well the point I'm making is how can I not have a ground connection when lifting an earth wire from a plug reduces noise?"
Because a ground loop in this case has got nothing to do with the wall plug earth connection, it has to do with a small resistance between the multiple grounds in your system. Don't believe a good earth connection will solve all ground loop problems.

Ok we're butting heads here, what are you trying to say?

The noise I am having is because my ground in my room might be bad?

Why are we talking about wall plug ground if this has nothing to do with my ground loop problem?  I don't understand why this has entered discussion if it has nothing to do with my ground loop issue.

I was simply trying to find the cause of the noise.  And I found it.  it's a ground loop.

Unless someone else can explain to me why lifting the ground off my plug reduces the noise?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 21, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
I'll try explain what I'm talking about. You have 3 types of noise.

1:EMI noise on the power lines ,this is why you need a line filter like a power conditioner.

2:EMI noise in the air, this can be picked up by your guitar PU's and cable's

3:EMI noise in ground loops

There are also other types of noise but from what I have seen on the wave file you posted it's originating from the power grid since it's all 50Hz harmonics.
So a good earth connection will help with shielding. Do you know what a Faraday's cage is?
Well a shielded cable is also a sort of faraday's cage so the better the earth connection the better shielding you will have. The same for the metal cases like your preamp.
And yes it will also be shielded without an earth connection but not as good.

So I think you have problems with 2 and 3 because if you remove the ground loop by disconnecting the ground wire there is still the same noise only lower in volume.

But like I said this is a very complex matter to solve and I'm not a specialist in EMI stuff.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 22, 2016, 02:00:42 AM
Sorry if I'm appearing frustrated.

Yes I know what a faraday cage is, I create one when I shield my guitars so I know and have read about it.  Basically it acts as a shield and carries emf to ground as opposed to letting it go straight into the guitars components.

For the record when I did those tests I did them with gain set to my normal settings.  If everything is clean I have no noise.

I was always told noise under high gain is normal so expect it.  You think I have issue with no.2 and no.3?

I think you overlooked something also in your assessment.  The clip I posted where I use only the GT5, is quiet (some hiss but that is normal).  Guess what?  Still using long cables.  However the thing that is different is there is no preamp in the loop.  So any extra noise is coming with the addition of the preamp.

The other noise we hear after I disconnect the earth on the preamp sounds similar to the original noise (in the noise 2 clip) only much much quieter, I'd say 80% may be more.

Who knows what the extra noise is, but I know I can get rid of A LOT of the hum so I'm quite pleased with that.  One other thing I need to do is replace one cable I use with a proper good quality shielded cable, I'll make one before I go play in Scotland and England next week.  Was thinking of bringing the MP1, I still need to replace the electrolytic caps though.

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 22, 2016, 05:55:52 AM
With no preamp in the loop you disconnect 2 cables and the preamp, so less noise induction. Don't forget a preamp will amplify  the noise in the cables and the noise that was already present.

It's not easy to get it hum free but you can with some experimenting lower it down to a manageable level.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 22, 2016, 06:33:46 AM
But obviously I cannot do anything about the cables so that's something I have to live with. 

That said I find the noise level after the earth removed totally acceptable, lets hope the hum eliminator can reduce the hum to that same level otherwise I still have a noise issue.  I mean you only heard the noise because there was a phone recording it right up to the speaker.  No ones going to notice that level of noise at a show.  I've heard much louder hissing coming from peoples amps in all honesty.  I could also bump up the noise reduction, but I wont as I keep it as low as possible.

So that being said there is nothing else to do to improve my situation that I am aware off.  But I feel it has improved significantly knowing I have a ground loop and that I need to get rid of that.  The noise is equally as bad with an MP1 in the loop, worse because at that time I was using a external transformer too so another ground wire!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 24, 2016, 05:21:30 AM
reading this at the moment.  Not sure whether to try it or not.

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/stargnd/stargnd.htm (http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/stargnd/stargnd.htm)

Isn't this just the same as removing ground from some equipment but leaving one attached so you are always connected to ground so long as all your gear is chained together?

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 24, 2016, 08:08:24 AM
No star grounding is actually putting your grounds on one single point and there you could connect your earth. It's usually used in amps. And also in the MP-1.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 26, 2016, 01:25:59 PM
Ok so as MJMP already knows, I have fixed my issue using the Art Clean Box II.

I tried it in two places. 

The first place I tried it:

Guitar > GT5 Input > GT5 send > Art Clean Box Input > Art Clean Box Output > Preamp Input > Preamp Output > GT5 Return > GT5 Main Outputs L+R > Power Amp Input

I cannot recommend this unit enough.  I have attached an audio clip.

In the clip I fade the noise in.  This is the noise with my guitar plugged in everything up deathly loud, and no hand on the guitar strings.  Hum city.  I then mute this, you hear me plug in the Art Box, then nothing after that.  The nothing is what happens when the Art Clean Box is plugged in.



No star grounding is actually putting your grounds on one single point and there you could connect your earth. It's usually used in amps. And also in the MP-1.

Why MP1 and no other preamp?  oR where you just saying that for an example?

I do star grounding in my guitars when I shield them but I'd be worried about killing myself if I did it in a preamp.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 26, 2016, 01:43:23 PM
As an example yes.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Soloist on June 27, 2016, 10:52:42 AM
Hey RG, where was the second place you tried it? Or is the signal path you posted the better of the 2? Major difference in cleaning up the hum in your signal. :thumb-up:
When I had the Beringer hd400 I placed it in the fx loop with similar results as you.
Now with no hum time for you to make some noise :metal: :metal:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 27, 2016, 12:25:18 PM
Hey RG, where was the second place you tried it? Or is the signal path you posted the better of the 2? Major difference in cleaning up the hum in your signal. :thumb-up:
When I had the Beringer hd400 I placed it in the fx loop with similar results as you.
Now with no hum time for you to make some noise :metal: :metal:
Jeeez such I dumb ass!  Forgot to post the second place.  The second place did nothing.  Like absolutely nothing!

I put the Box between my GT5 and Power amp.  So on the outputs of the GT5.  I ran both left and right through 1 and 2 inputs on the box.

Yeah man I've basically done what you did, it's in my GT5 FX loop, the box gets the guitar signal before the preamp does, and cleans up the hum.

I wonder what would happen if I put the box between the output of the preamp and the GT5 Return?

I can't rave enough about this product, I'm very happy.  I put up with that shit noise for a good while thinking it was my practice room mains and other things going in the building.  But no twas a big dirty ground loop.

Did you listen to that clip soloist?  Silence is golden!  Now I'm set for gigs in UK this weekend!  Woohoo!

MJMP being the font of all knowledge, can you explain what the transformer does in the Art Clean box?  So it separates the signal and the shield earth, ok but shouldn't that make noise then since it's like no earth going out of the box and into the preamp input since the box has captured it?  Sorry if this is a stupid question.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 27, 2016, 01:26:44 PM
Well it's actually and isolation transformer which gives you a galvanic isolation.
Here's some more info about it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformer

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on June 27, 2016, 02:31:36 PM
Another ground loop issued SOLVED :thumb-up:

Harley 8)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Soloist on June 28, 2016, 08:39:15 AM
Yes RG I did listen to the clip. Night and day difference!!! Good work :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 29, 2016, 06:01:03 AM
Yes RG I did listen to the clip. Night and day difference!!! Good work :thumb-up:
  Totally man, and I just recorded that using my phone held in front of a speaker cab.  Very pleased with the outcome!

I been reading up on these isolation transformers.  Still don't really understand how they do what they do.  I read that they actually attach boats to isolation transformers to stop them corroding whilst tied up in docks.  I dunno what the hell that's all about but hey!  Works form ground loops and galvanic corrosion.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 29, 2016, 07:08:14 AM
Isolation transformers are used on boats for safety reasons and also to prevent galvanic corrosion.

Here's more info about galvanic corrosion  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 29, 2016, 07:24:03 AM
Isolation transformers are used on boats for safety reasons and also to prevent galvanic corrosion.

Here's more info about galvanic corrosion  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

Oh I know, I read that article when I stumbled upon that, I still don't understand that though as a lot of that jargon means nothing to me. 

When a ground loop is broken, where does the ground go?  Into the transformer?  Then the signal comping out of the transformer, the seperated signal, has no ground, so how come there is no noise from the lack of a shield? 

Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 29, 2016, 09:30:12 AM
Galvanic corrosion is when you attach 2 different metals too each other and put them in a neutral elektrolyte then you will get a voltage difference in these 2 metals so one metal will have a higher potential that will break down this metal quicker then other. Like I said explanation in a nutshell and not 100% accurate.

As for the ground,well in your case on primairy side you have the ground of the GT-5 and on the secondairy side you have the ground of the preamp.The way an isolation transformer works is that in stead of flowing current through the wire you get a flow through a magnetic field so there's no actual connection between the 2 sides.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on June 30, 2016, 01:47:28 AM
@ MJMP

ahhhhhhhhhhh "black magic" then  :lol:

Yes these things are complicated as I can see from even your basic explanation.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 30, 2016, 02:16:54 PM
yes you could call it black magic  >:D
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on July 05, 2016, 01:36:13 AM
Update: (I know this thread has mutated from Powerconditioners to breaking ground loops but hey!)

Played three nights in a row, traveled 742miles, used the Art Clean Box II at every show!

Result?  I had a quieter rig than the guy from the band we were touring with (who had two huge framus heads and a tube screamer and some fancy expensive modualtion unit I can't remember the name off).

His rig was buzzy and noisey, my rig....................silent!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on July 05, 2016, 07:01:25 AM
Great!
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Harley Hexxe on July 05, 2016, 01:21:01 PM
Isn't that a great feeling? :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on July 06, 2016, 01:09:23 AM
yes it is indeed.  The ground loop was main noise artifact that I had to get rid off.  And killing it left me with the level of noise I would have minus the ground loop, which turns out to be little to none!!  Meaning all the time spent making good cables for myself and shielding guitars has paid off.

The dude in the band we were touring with, his rig was badly affected by lights from what I could hear.  He had the other kinda noise (not hum but the sorta buzz you get from like emf).  I didn't  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on July 06, 2016, 04:24:21 AM
Well you learned so much you could start a business in optimizing gear  :lol:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rnolan on July 06, 2016, 07:11:08 AM
Good news RG  :thumb-up: , so what sort of PUs was the other guy using ?  And all the good work you did with cables and shielding etc is always worth it.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on July 06, 2016, 12:03:09 PM
hmmmmm I dunno Richard.  He had a Jackson, that's all I remember.

In this pic you can see his guitar.  No idea about the pups.  Could be the stock ones.  MJMP will know about the guitar or someone else who knows Jackson stuff, Soloist perhaps?
http://metal-on-metal.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Risen_Prophecy_live_11.jpg (http://metal-on-metal.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Risen_Prophecy_live_11.jpg)

No idea why he was getting noise.  Really nice fella.  Playing with that band in Ireland for another three dates at the end of the month as well!!!  Can't wait to loose weight via energetic stage performance yet again lol  Lost 4 pounds this weekend!  Not that I'm fat mind you.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on July 06, 2016, 01:49:57 PM
Could be a soloist x series ,these usually come with duncan designed PU's or a soloist pro (seymour duncan)
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rnolan on July 06, 2016, 11:24:52 PM
Well they are humbuckers then (which was my main interest, as he has noise).  Maybe you can help him sort it out next gig you do with them ?
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on July 07, 2016, 12:42:58 AM
I suppose I was surprised he had noise even though there were humbuckers.  I guess it made that sound like when there is an earth not connected.  I'll chat with him the next time we play in a few weeks and see if we can find the issue.  Could be something to do with his pedals also, but the closest thing I would say it sounded like would be when there is no earth connection in the guitar.  I could only hear it when he stopped playing, but then I imagine you would only hear it when he stopped playing if it was a broken earth.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rnolan on July 07, 2016, 06:19:57 PM
Worth check his guitar output jack also, they probably take the most wear of any connection (as well as the other end of it) and can sometimes cause this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Soloist on July 07, 2016, 07:41:10 PM
hmmmmm I dunno Richard.  He had a Jackson, that's all I remember.

In this pic you can see his guitar.  No idea about the pups.  Could be the stock ones.  MJMP will know about the guitar or someone else who knows Jackson stuff, Soloist perhaps?
http://metal-on-metal.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Risen_Prophecy_live_11.jpg (http://metal-on-metal.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Risen_Prophecy_live_11.jpg)

No idea why he was getting noise.  Really nice fella.  Playing with that band in Ireland for another three dates at the end of the month as well!!!  Can't wait to loose weight via energetic stage performance yet again lol  Lost 4 pounds this weekend!  Not that I'm fat mind you.

Its hard to tell from the pic as his hand is blocking the bridge pick up. Soloist come stock with Duncans or EMG's. That pic looks like the neck p/u is a Dimarzio Air Norton, or a Jackson sustainer from a PC1 model. He could have ordered it from the Jackson custom shop and had them install whatever he wanted. Defiantly looks more like a soloist body than dinky. Nice lookin axe either way :thumb-up:
My USA Soloist came with EMG's in it, and my Dinky Pro came with Duncan JB's.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: rabidgerry on July 08, 2016, 02:08:33 AM
I'll investigate when I play with the guy next.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on July 08, 2016, 03:36:09 AM
All my USA Jacksons came with Seymour Duncan PU's, usually TB-4's.
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: Soloist on July 08, 2016, 07:37:47 AM
Yeah the trem bucker is what I have too! Excellent pickup :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Power Conditioners
Post by: MarshallJMP on July 08, 2016, 08:30:29 AM
I'm more an EMG guy,but I still have the TB-4/SH-2 combo in my USA Kelly and a TB-4/SH1-n in MS flying V.