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Author Topic: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion  (Read 2069 times)

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rabidgerry

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Well I'm back!

Had so many things to bring up for discussion with you all but just hadn't the heart to talk about it until I felt like a musician again with a band.  Weird right?  Well I got a bass player now so he's playing with me and the drummer and things are starting to feel like a band again so here I am!!

Anyways I think I brought this up before but here I go again.

FEEDBACK!!

I have real issues with feedback.  I'm now contemplating using two noise gates which to me seems really crazy considering I would be using what I would consider 80's hi gain.  So I bet no one used two noise gates back then which is why it is crazy to me as one noise gate just doesn't seem to cut it for me.

That is unless there is something wrong with my rig.

However I don't think it is my pickups as they are potted.  I don't think it's tubes (using a Peavey Classic 50/50 tube power amp and Peavey rockmaster) as it's not whistling feedback.  Well to be honest the feedback sounds vary.  The main way I would describe this is resonance from the guitar body.  I also am guilty of standing facing my cabs.  Yip that's right.  Why?  Because it sounds like shit if you turn your back.  So if I shouldn't do this in the rehearsal room what is the best way to monitor  without standing say 15ft from cabs and facing them?

To go a little deeper, the noise gate I use does work.  It just seems to open to much from resonance and string noise.  Like sometimes I can catch the strings and mute them and feedback will still happen unless I turn my back quickly as well.  It's all a bit weird unless this is totally normal and I just shouldn't face my cabs.  Then again I ask how do you guys monitor in rehearsal?

The noise gate I use tracks the guitar signal then has a loop to place into that the noisy device.  In this case it's what ever preamp I am using.  It's a rocktron Silencer pedal I use.

Here is one way I've hooked it all up before


and a similar way



and here is another way but it's also in the loop of the rockmaster pre



and also in the loop again but guitar goes to the GX700 first and then that unit send goes to the input of the silencer


« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

I use in essence 2 noise gates, the decimator pro g rack which has 2 noise gates. The signal comes from the reciever into my rack wah and then goes into the first channel of the decimator, from there it's splits into my MP-1 and MP-2, the output of my MP-1 goes into the second channel of the decimator. For the MP-2 I use the internal noise gate a bit since I only use it for cleans it's not so noisy. The output of the second channel of the decimator then goes into my midi loop switcher, same as the MP2 output so I can switch between the mp-1 and mp-2.
Works perfect for me. Also the decimator is super fast. I found out that this works best, one gate before (which cleans up the guitar signal) and one after (which cleans up the preamp).

Maybe mixing a pedal with rack gear doesn't work so well, instrument vs line levels. The decimator can be switched between line and instrument level per channel, so my first channel is set to instrument level, second is set to line level.
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rnolan

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

Hey RG great news about the bass player  :whoohoo!: .

IMHO there's a couple of things going on.  Facing your cabs is how you get feedback normally unless the volume is so low you don't and you have to put the guitar right on the speaker to get it. But I assume you know that, just watch a Hendrix live clip....  This sort of feedback is hard to gate out as there is lots of signal feeding back which opens the gate and higher gain + vol even more signal/feedback.  But to gate resonance feedback, it's probably done best up front just after the guitar (like MJMP does with one channel of his gate, before the preamps add gain to it) so the guitar resonances are lowered and they don't have much gain at this point.  But your gate works a bit differently to MJMPs, the silencer has the loop thing, so it's gating the loop return, not the (guitar) input and while it's ok with lower level line level signals (max 10dBu) it's more meant for a noisy distortion pedal with much lower output than the rockmaster.

(It's all a bit weird unless this is totally normal and I just shouldn't face my cabs  :thumb-up: )
So monitoring with your back to the cabs will control it (well to a degree, depends how loud you are playing), as you said. So you need to work it such that you are ok with sound coming from behind or even the side (so you can turn away to stop the resonant feedback).  I rehearse with one split stack behind me so the angled top means I don't have to get as far away for it to be ok.  Maybe mic the guitar as well and put a bit in the PA or a monitor/wedge so you can face away from your cabs and get a ok sound.

The other sort of feedback is gain/circuit/electrical type squeals/noise which will happen when you get your guitar really close to the preamp/amp etc (when the gains cranked up, even if the guitar volume is off/0) or when there are gain issues with your signal chain.  The way you run your rig is a bit unusual (albeit interesting and inventive and hey, works for you  :thumb-up: ) and looking at the 4 patching options, they all have various degrees of (potential) gain structure issues.  IIRC you use the GX700 as both preamp and FX and the rockmaster like a distortion pedal (albeit a line level one with lots of gain) in the GX700 loop. So straight up there is a (potential) gain structure miss match.  The rockmaster input is inst level and its output is line.  Obviously you have made this work ok  but this is generally squeal city (and using the gate is helping control/accommodate the gain mismatch).  If for example you had a early MP-1 top switch model (and no rear jack mod), you'd either use the MP-1 front in (inst level) and switch the MP-1 out to inst level, OR use MP-1 rear input (line level) and switch output to line level thus no gain mismatch in GX700 loop.  With the various patch options, where the various loops are in the signal chain (within each unit and overall) and what control you have over their send and return levels makes a big difference also, but even if you can balance them up with a combination of controls (i.e. input/output vols, send level return level) so there's no clipping etc. any inst and line level mismatch will add noise and squeal.

So looking at the silencer, seems the input just passes through (tru bypass mode i.e. switched out/off) or when switched on, the input goes to the send (you said there's some sensing of that signal for noise reduction purposes ? for the Hush?) so whatever the input level is, (up to 10dBu or the input will clip) is what the send level is.  The return signal goes through the gate to the output and also is "hushed" at whatever level comes in the return jack.

In your setup 2 gates make sense.  One up front between the guitar and input to help control resonance feedback, and one in the GX700 loop to help control the gain mismatch squeal/noise from the rockmaster.

Anyway my 10 cents my friend, hope it helps  :wave:
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rabidgerry

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

@MJMP

I get what you are saying but from the manual it should be ok to take line level at the Silencer send/return and instrument level and the Silencer input.  https://manualzz.com/doc/17278095/rocktron-guitar-silencer-pedal-manual--pdf-
I mean it is designed to go in the loop of an amp same as I have used it and same as Boss NS-2 or Decimator G-string pedal which all follow the same principal of tracking guitar signal, then send that into whatever device you are using etc etc.  There could be something in what you are saying though which is why I was asking what is the best way for me to hook my gear up and posted the examples. 

I think I'm leaning toward Guitar > Silencer Input > Silencer Send > GX700 Input > GX700 Send > Preamp Input > Preamp Send > Silencer Return > Silencer Output > Preamp Return > Preamp Output > GX 700 Return > GX700 OUTPUT > Power Amp Input


@Richard, that's what I thought you were going to say.  I already knew this about feedback but I guess I was looking someone else to tell me as a sanity check.

Really standing with my back to cabs is such a stupid way to hear myself, but then so is facing the dam cabs.  Yesterday I looked at the Boss GX700 again to see if some levels had changed that I wasn't aware off.  I revised each thing again which I think helped.  Basically I dialled the input for the guitar going into the GX700 input down a little and this seemed to help A LOT.  However, I feel have lost some distortion now which I am disappointed at.

If I was to employ two gates I think I would put one on the end of the guitar by itself however I still really don't think I should have to do this.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

rnolan

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, the issue is mixing inst level and line level.  The silencer is either, not both at the same time.  The silencer input is fed to its send, so if the input is inst level (your guitar), that's what will go out the send, if the silencer input is loop send (GX700 or rock rockmaster), that will be the silencer send level (line albeit dialed down via send level control).  The manual diagram puts a noisy distortion pedal in the silencer loop which is inst level in and out.  If you put the rockmaster in this loop instead, you create a (large) gain mismatch because it's inst level in and line level out, the rockmaster isn't designed to go in a loop or fx chain (e.g. pedal board) where the noisy pedal is.  Obviously you can make it work by adjusting the various send and return levels etc. but it's like you have a gain volcano with a plug in it, so the potential gain is still there in the circuit i.e. squeal city.  You can get some interesting/amazing sounds this way but they are always on the edge.  One of the best guitar sounds I ever created (back when I was 14(ish)) was:
Guitar -> battery powered microphone preamp -> old 5w tube radiogram crystal input (before magnetic LP PU cartridges), 5w speaker out -> 100w amp input (it normally wants 1v (not 5w  :metal: )), 100w out -> 2 x 20w twin cone hifi speakers.  So massive gain mismatches all over the shop.  Sounded absolutely awesome until I started blowing my dads hifi speakers  :facepalm: (he was not impressed).  Also squealed like a banshee but that's partly how I learned to play.
Another example more similar to your gain mismatch is when I used a Rockman for solo boost:
Guitar -> a/b a+b switch, a to Marshall 50 input, b to Rockman input, Rockman headphone outs, left to Marshall 50 bass ch input and right to Marshall 100w Artist input.  I put resistors in the Rockman output leads to bring them back to inst level for the Marshall inputs.  This sounded great but squealed uncontrollably when I stopped playing (because of the Rockman gain mismatch), so I had to be quick on the a/b switch to turn the Rockman input off at the end of songs, the singer called it the beast LoL.  So even though I'd balanced the levels (resistors in the Rockman output leads), the potential gain in the Rockman just went off, same thing is happening with your rockmaster.


As we discussed ages ago, to use the 2 preamps, you could split the guitar signal so both preamps get inst level in and bring it all together with a small mixer. But then you don't get to load up/boost the rockmaster input from the GX700 preamp stage (which IIRC you like to) or get the GX700 fxs on the rockmaster.  So since the way you do it gets the sound you want, you need to control the gain mismatch (squeal potential).  So running the rockmaster in the silencer loop will (and does) help. A normal gate after the guitar will also help because the whole preamp setup wants to feedback. Also using more sophisticated gate(s) could assist as they give control over gate attack and release times, not just threshold.

I like to rehearse as similar to stage as I can, so cab(s) behind me.  Unless I put the cabs up to ear(ish) level or get a fair way from them, I don't hear the top end as much as it all goes into my legs.  Consequently my patches probably have too much top end.

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rabidgerry

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

So which of my diagrams is the most suitable do you think?

Ok I totally get what you are saying now.

Does that mean the silencer can't cope with a line level being returned to it?

For all intents and purposes I know the loop in the Boss is supposed to be able to cope with a preamp or something like it in it's loop.  And should there be issues levels can be adjusted either via the output of the rockmaster or the return level of the boss.  The boss has metering for the every item in the chain so this can be checked as well to make sure what is coming back in the return isn't pushing anything to far.

I would never have imagined the was an issue with the silencer's loop though.

Like I mentioned earlier I did get things under control on Saturday by looking at the level of the guitar going into the boss but I can't help feel I've lost some distortion now.

PS I have another simple, single ended noise gate pedal that I bought as part as part of a flight rig, I could potentially use this as the second gate after the guitar.  If I was to place this in my setup would where would you place it?  On the send of the Boss?  Or between the guitar and the boss?

« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

I would place that single ended gate directly after the guitar. That would work best IMO.
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rnolan

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, I'm with MJMP, directly after the guitar and see if you can get the level into the Boss back up so you don't have the distortion loss.  And of the patching methods, put the rockmaster in the Boss loop so Boss send -> silencer input, silencer send to rockmaster input, rockmaster output to silencer return, silencer output to Boss return.  So basically like the silencer manual with rockmaster being noisy distortion pedal.  There will be the gain mismatch but you can balance the various inputs and output (as you have been doing) so there is no clipping and tweak the silencer hush and gate thresholds to keep it as quiet as possible.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

Thanks as always guys, well that seems like the best way, so I shall try this out on Saturday.

I have also discovered this which I am keen to try.

Seems very good in my opinion and for the cash????? Holy  :poop:

Have a question about what guys where using for noise suppression in the early 80's and even further back.  Can anyone tell me?

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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

Well my first noise gate was a boss NF-1, still have it  ::)
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rabidgerry

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

But you don't use it though right?  Not with the Decimator in your rig.

Like what would Judas Priest have used for example in like 1982?  Or anyone else.  Kinda fascinates me as I know toward the late 80s lots of bands where using Hush units.  And I really really love the Hush IICX but I use this for for home use.  Adapted a pedal into my rig as it is smaller.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

No don't use it anymore, it's quite old, I think I bought it new in '84. I just keep it because of the memorys I guess. I also have my old DS-1 and some other MIJ boss pedals.

From what I recall DOD and MXR also had noise gates around that area. Maybe some DBX gates were used before the hush, just guessing here.
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rnolan

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

I just used my hands, never had or seemed to need a gate.  When I included the Rockman I had to be quick on the a/b switch at the end of songs.  When I went to the MP-1 rig I never had any issues.  I have notice from teaching guitar to the occasional person(s) that I have developed various hand left/right techniques to shut the guitar up.  I developed these due to necessity playing full bore (no master volume on amps back then).  I don't think gates were invented way back then? and fx wise, I had a MXR phase 45 for a while, then a electro harmonics Memoryman delay for a bit. Later I got a tom shultz power soak which let me play the Marshall 50 at lower volumes and then a korg digital delay and digital chorus.  Then moved on to MP-1, Quadverb, B200s, which was just heaven after the Marshall 50 and never had any need for a gate.  I used the gated reverb in SPX90 for snare, mixing live bands.  IIRC it also had a gate patch but I never used it.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #13 on: Time Format »

Yeah that's right MJMP a couple of other brands followed suit with the noise gate pedals.  I believe a had the DOD one from the mid 80's but I got rid as it wasn't what I thought it was.  It had a loop in it for whatever reason but not a side chain to guage the opening and closing of the gate like the Rocktron Silencer or ISP G-string or NS-2.

Well I can only assume Richard that your gain or distortion levels were never as high as some of the acts I'm talking about.  Just at a guess.  I get no where near as much noise from my Rockmaster pre when I'm on the crunch channel for example.  But on the Ultra Gain channel with boost switch engaged I get feedback at the volume I'm playing at.  Still might get feedback with lower distortion tones but I have to coax it out a little more, i.e find the right spot when facing the cabs.  I think great deal of my feedback issues is down to resonance from the guitar and also from facing the cabs as I mentioned in the beginning.  However as I'm 15fth away I can control it like you do by adjusting my technique.  I noticed over the years so as not to lean on my locking trems I developed a really light palm mute which I am now having to adjust.  I was always paranoid about pushing down on a floating trem and that gave me this light right hand muting technique.  I'm now trying to adjust that these days to a more pressure applied to the strings approach to help catch the string noise.  I also try and mute with the left hand as best I can too.  The combination is good but still sometimes that "groan" resonance from the body can sneak through hence wanting to get the gates to help me a little more.

May could start to use my IEM's I bought a long time ago and never got to use thanks to Covid and then I wouldn't need to face the cabs.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Feedback with live rigs - general discussion
« Reply #14 on: Time Format »

I spent a lot of time with noise gates and I was happy when I found the decimator. For me the dual gate setup is the best way, I did a lot of experimenting with different brands and the dual gate was always the best solution.

Don't think that the feedback is coming from the guitar itself but it can come from either the strings or the pickups.
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