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Author Topic: Fender Cyber-Twin SE  (Read 2339 times)

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rnolan

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #30 on: Time Format »

Hey Harley, I started with Pro Tools on a Win98 box.  What I liked about it was I could use the mixer window and just use it like a digital tape machine.  I know it could do lots more like loops, copy paste in the wav window but I never bothered with it.  I was just replicating how I'd always recorded with tape machines.  An used a small desk for all monitoring etc. so I never had latency issues when tracking. 

It was a big learning curve to configure it though as back then the HDDs were small and not always fast enough (min 7,200 rpm drives).  Nd getting all the buffers tweaked just right took a while...  Now I'm ranting LoL. 

Hope you get it sorted soon.  Sounds like you just want to use it similarly how I used PT.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #31 on: Time Format »

Richard,

    That's exactly what I want to do with any DAW that I might try to use. Use it as if it were a couple of tape machines with a mixing desk. And just simply record to it. all the loops and syncopated beats and whatever, you can keep that. It's not how music is made,(or was made). Pre-recorded sample sounds of drums triggered on a keyboard or spitting in a mike isn't how drums were ever recorded.
    Of course, at work, I hear what kids are listening to these days. It either sounds like tribal chanting at times, or protesters at a demonstration rally, with some tinkling sounds and a spastic percussionist in the background, who could have been someone's two year old that they recorded, or else it sounds like some guy with a blanket over his head that's soaking wet rhyming a bunch of expletives, but not really saying anything at all. Yeah, I wear earplugs.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #32 on: Time Format »

Okay Gang,

     Here we go again...I pulled the trigger on another Cyber Deluxe. I found one at a decent price in Toledo and bought it.

     It's in good shape, and works as well as my original one with the exception of the numeric display, it seems that may have a small issue with one or two LEDs in it, but that's no biggie. Some of you reading this may ask why did I want a second one of these? Simple. I want to take the Vibrolux out of the picture with the expander function and use the power amp and speaker section of this amp for the Right Effects channel. My Vibrolux will be 50 years old next year, and it doesn't need to be going out on the road anymore. Besides that, the last time I had it re-tubed was in the mid 90's, so it's getting close to needing some fresh bottles.

    There is another issue that I discovered with these amplifiers which surprised me because this condition exists in the one I just bought as well as the one I've owned since it was new. The way I'm supposed to be able to make the stereo effects work is like this: Connect an instrument cable from the Expander output of the main amplifier to the Effects Return of the auxiliary amplifier, and use the level control on the main amp to balance out the stereo level. The main amplifier will have the Left channel of the stereo effects, and the Right channel will come from the auxiliary amp. The problem here is that no sound comes from the auxiliary amp when I plug into the effects return.
      Yes, I did try different cables, ...no help
       I did plug a dummy plug into the Send jack to see if the loop needed to see two plugs to work,...no help
       I tried a TRS cable, ...no help
       Then I reversed the process. I connected the Expander of the "new" one, out to my original CD, and the same thing happened. (Or didn't happen to be accurate).

   This tells me there may be a design error in the effects loops of these amps? I contacted Fender about this today, and it sounds like they don't want to hear anything about a discontinued amp like this. Great company eh? Anyway, I believe something is wired wrong in the effects loop that won't uncouple the preamp from the power amp and let it work that way.

    MJMP, if you're reading this, do you have any thoughts on this one please? An effects loop should be a relatively simple circuit I would think.
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rnolan

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #33 on: Time Format »

Hey Harley, the connections (expander and both the send and return) are all balanced TRS (https://www.manualslib.com/manual/562591/Fender-Cyber-Deluxe-Dsp-7.html?page=17#manual) so might work with a half insert of a mono jack  :dunno: or better, use a TRS to TRS lead (But you said you tried a TRS cable  :dunno: .).  From my reading of it, it should do just what you want with switch set to stereo right out.  And generally (as I'm sure you know), the serial fx loop is switched by a plug in the return, however, is there a loop on/off switch/footswitch that toggles the loop? 

Have you tried expander TRS to (any) poweramp in (or even a mixer channel) to check you have signal there?  Also a TRS from main amp send to aux amp return should also work (but not in the stereo way you want).  Even expander to Aux amp input should work (albeit the signal will be to high for the input but you can turn the expander lv right down just to check the expander out works).


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MarshallJMP

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #34 on: Time Format »

Have you checked if you have a signal coming out of the expander jack? I see in the schematics an exp mute signal, maybe you need to turn it on in the software???
The send return is pretty forward, it should work when you plug either a balanced or unbalanced cable.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #35 on: Time Format »

It does send a signal out from the expander jack. It's been working that way with the Vibrolux all these years without needing to be enabled in software. And, I did plug into the input on the front of the amp from the expander output. That also worked that way, but it's not how it should work.

I believe the EXP mute you're looking at is a function when using an expression pedal, but I'm not using that.

Technically, you should be able to plug your guitar into the effects return of any amp with an effects loop, and hear it come through the speaker completely bypassed from the preamp. That doesn't work in this amp that way. I forgot to mention that in my post
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rnolan

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #36 on: Time Format »

Hey Harley, then that would imply the return (fx loop) is being turned off some how, can it be turned on and off with a footswitch??  What happens if you put a stomp pedal or fx gadget in the loop send return, does that work? (it should obviously). 

A really dumb thought is - does it need a jack in both send and return to make it work??? (it shouldn't)
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #37 on: Time Format »

I see that the send has a mute, the return doesn't and it goes almost straight (through some opamps) into the codec.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #38 on: Time Format »

@ Richard,
    No, I don't see anything to toggle the loop in any of the CC parameters. If you put a pedal in the loop, you get whatever tone with the current preset you have with the pedal added to it, and I did mention in the first post about this that I tried a dummy plug in the send jack to see if the amp needed to see something like that in order to work, but that made no difference.

@MJMP,
    I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #39 on: Time Format »

From what I can see it should work, the send signal goes through the return jack contacts if nothing is plugged in, if you plug something in the return cuts the send signal. And you say a dummy plug works so it should work. BTW it doesn't need something in the send, I looked at that. Now I see that  the expander has a sort of balanced out same for the return but a normal mono jack cable should work. I see a left and right signal mixed togheter and the left can be muted with a button?

Can you plug another signal into the return and see if that works?
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #40 on: Time Format »

MJMP,
   I already tried putting another signal into the return jacks of both of these amps, and I get nothing, no sound.

   Let me try to explain how this system is supposed to work as simply as I can:

    Amplifier "A" is the amp I have the guitar plugged into on the front panel. All the tone shaping and level controls are in this amplifier.
    I plug an instrument cable from the Expander out on the back of this amplifier and send this signal out to amplifier "B" The stereo split button on this amplifier is pushed in to separate the stereo channels into left and right. The Left stereo channel will now come out of amplifier "A" only. The level control next to the expander output jack will control the level of the right channel signal going to amplifier "B"

    Amplifier "B" - the line from amplifier "A" is plugged into the Return jack of this amplifier and none of the controls on this amplifier work. Everything is controlled from amplifier "A." The stereo right channel from amplifier "A" is what is plugged into the return jack of amplifier "B" but there is no sound coming from this amplifier. The dummy plug in the send jack of this amplifier did not work either. I tried a balanced cable (T/R/S) instead of a mono cable, and again, no sound. I tried plugging my guitar straight into the return jack of this amplifier, and again, no sound. I tried sending a direct signal from my GK 250ML into the return of this amplifier, and again, no sound.

    At this point I thought to myself maybe something was wrong with this amplifier so I switched the two amplifiers connections around and tried sending from amplifier "B" to amplifier "A" in the same way as described above. Once again, no sound from the amplifier that is plugged into the return jack. Amplifier "A" is the one I've owned since it was new, so I knew there was no damage in that circuit. This is why I believe there may be some kind of flaw in the circuit design, because they both do the same thing, no matter what I plug into the return jack of either amplifier.

    From what you can see in the schematic, it should be working like that, but something is stopping it from doing so. This doesn't make sense. There is nothing in the manual about setting any kind of MIDI controller messages to the effects loop. In fact, the only control for the effects is found on the MIDI foot controller, and that is the effects bypass button, but that only bypasses the effects in the DSP of the "A" amplifier. I will try connecting a MIDI cable to the "B" amplifier from the "A" amplifier and see if that does anything when I press the effects bypass button. It seems like software is the only thing I have left to solve this problem. I doubt if this will do anything.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #41 on: Time Format »

Update:

    I have it working now. it's not perfected, but it's working.

    I tried a few different things in the software but nothing made a difference. So, I decided to try a Sysex Dump of my programs from the original CD into the one I just bought. Now, the sound comes through. I'm not sure of this, but I think I needed to make sure all the MIDI messages were being transmitted and received in the newer amp. It seems odd, but it's working now.

    The new discoveries about this setup is this: The right channel of the stereo effects only comes through if you have a stereo effect set up in the program, all mono effects will come out of the left channel, (meaning the "A" amplifier).

    The volume of the "B" amplifier seems to be lower than the original amplifier so I've had to turn the level control of the expander output all the way up and adjust the master volume on the "B" amplifier to balance the levels out. The level button on the effects loop in the "B" amplifier needs to be set to +4 db, but I still need to adjust the master volume up higher in the "B" amp to match the "A" amp.
So more tweaking is needed now to get things right.

    Leave it to me to take a simple concept and make it into a complicated mess :lol:
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #42 on: Time Format »

Wauw, that wasen't easy!! Strange that if you use a mono effect the other side doesn't work, you should thing it will output a dual mono signal?
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Fender Cyber-Twin SE
« Reply #43 on: Time Format »

MJMP,

    The only place the Cyber Deluxe outputs dual mono signals is at the two recording line outs. The expander out is only supposed to have the right channel of the stereo effects when you select that function.
   If there is no stereo effect selected when connected with an auxiliary amplifier, then the right side comes out dry with any reverb you might have dialed in. This is actually kind of cool when you are using just the CD without the Cyber Twin in the middle. You get your mono effect out of one side, but you still have your core guitar tone coming from the other side untouched, so it's parallel effects when not using stereo. That will make mic'ing these up a lot easier when recording.
   The manual doesn't give much detail about anything these amps can do, so you have to figure all the really cool things you can do with these amps as you go. For what they are as far as modeling amps go, and as good as they sound, I think I made the smart move buying these while they are still cheap. Overall, I could take either the CT, or the CD's, or both rigs to any gig and can keep up with the best of them.
   BTW, I just got the bugs sorted out in my desktop and in Cubase, and managed to finally get it to record some guitar direct. It took me almost all day to figure out what was wrong, but something in my Focusrite got screwy and I had to remove the software and reinstall it to get the inputs working again. Fortunately, I'm only involving three different types of software, Cubase, Toontracks, and Focusrite. I don't have any plug-ins or any of that other stuff, so all my tones have to come from my amps and effects.
   Anyway, after I get a couple of decent sounding programs set up in the amps, I'm going to get a few sample tracks recorded and post them here. I just hope I don't run into any software glitches again.
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