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Let's Get Technical => All Things Tube => Tubes (preamp/Input/Buffer) => Topic started by: Richman on November 03, 2013, 02:09:21 AM

Title: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Richman on November 03, 2013, 02:09:21 AM
What is the best choice for a stock MP-1 first version ? I have Mesa 12AX7 in there now but I have no idea how old they are. I want to get some new tubes but I'm hoping for some tried and true advice in this area. I've read about people using JJ's but I don't use them in my marshalls.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Richman on November 03, 2013, 02:12:33 AM
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/12AX7-ECC83-Tube-Types/Preferred-Series-7025-12AX7

I was looking at these tubes...
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Dante on November 03, 2013, 12:18:23 PM
Richman,

It depends on what you're looking for. My personal choice may not be yours. I was going for a severe overdrive, instead of facemelting gain, if that makes any sense. What is it you're trying to achieve?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Richman on November 03, 2013, 12:48:02 PM
Pretty much the super high gain 80's modded Marshall sound...Early Paul Gilbert / Racer X tones... I'm real close to that now....Any advice?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Dante on November 04, 2013, 07:39:46 AM
Honestly, I'm not the guy to ask...but there are plenty of folks in here that can answer that.

If it were me, I'd test all the ones I have - in each position. Position (v1 & v2) makes a HUGE difference.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MrIcee on November 04, 2013, 03:40:34 PM
Being the MP1 addict that I am ;)(I own 4 originals), I've used JJ's, reissue Mullards and Tung Sols.

The JJ's are nice for the price, I also have them in a first gen Carvin Quad-X. I have the Mullards in one of the MP-1's and they are fat, clean around the edges and overdrive/distortion to your hearts desire.

The Tung Sols....my favorite. Like the Mullards in many ways but more of a focused, hi-fi modded Marshall tone. I also have 9 of these in a 2nd Gen Carvin Quad-X and they turned it into a monster. The clean channels sparkle and Channel 4 became incredibly ass kicker.

AS always, this topic is subjective to an individuals taste and ear and this is solely my opinion. Any of the above will blow away the more common EH WA+WB variations.

Best regards,
Randi :D
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Richman on November 06, 2013, 11:17:27 AM
Good info thanks....What JJ tube number do you use.   12AX7S ??? Short Plate????
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 06, 2013, 12:59:33 PM
JJ only has ECC83S short plates
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Richman on November 06, 2013, 03:51:01 PM
Yes that's what I meant to say....
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: McLeanAB on November 12, 2013, 04:59:08 AM
I LOVED my Mullards and/or Tung Sols 12ax7's.  Used in my two MP-1 and the Engl e530.

It was somehow warm and face melting at the same time!
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Ibanez RG on November 14, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
In my MP-1 are JJ ECC83 S, in MP-2 are Tung-Sol 12AX7. :)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 14, 2013, 02:27:40 PM
I use Ruby 12AX7ACZ HG,these are actually JJ ECC83S tubes tested by Ruby.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Rodney_g on November 14, 2013, 02:43:41 PM
I love my Penta 12ax7 high gain tubes...http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/penta-12ax7.html (http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/penta-12ax7.html)
My first MP-1 came with a  really sweet sounding set of Groove Tubes 12AX7Cs and the high gain Pentas are the closest thing that I've found that get that high gain but not harsh distortion going on. Doug over at Doug's Tubes is very helpful with recommendations as well. 
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Dante on November 14, 2013, 03:02:48 PM
I love my Penta 12ax7 high gain tubes...http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/penta-12ax7.html (http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/penta-12ax7.html)
My first MP-1 came with a  really sweet sounding set of Groove Tubes 12AX7Cs and the high gain Pentas are the closest thing that I've found that get that high gain but not harsh distortion going on. Doug over at Doug's Tubes is very helpful with recommendations as well.

+1 Doug is awesome  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on November 17, 2013, 03:20:27 AM
Back in the day when the MP-1 was designed it was meant to be an even-hotter-rodded Marshall typo sound.
They designed it around the Chinese 12AX7A (MP-1s were shipped with "National" 12AX7A .... MJMP pls correct me if I´m wrong).
So to get that most original MP-1 sound my way to go would be TAD 12AX7A-C as these are (imho) the finest Chinese 12AX7 tubes avlbl today.
The JJ ECC83S have a bit tamed high/higher end which (once again imho) makes them a bit more "pleasing" to the ear; their gain and sound comes from the mids.
Do some tube-rolling and find your favorites! NOS Balckburn Mullards sound awesome in the MP-1, as does the Re-Issues (which are, like the modern TungSols, made by Sovtek....).
If you play in band though you´ll come to the point where you discover that once the drummer enters the room it doesn´t matter what tubes or other snake oil parts you use  8)

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Rodney_g on November 18, 2013, 05:47:01 AM
If you play in band though you´ll come to the point where you discover that once the drummer enters the room it doesn´t matter what tubes or other snake oil parts you use  8)

True dat! :lol:
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 27, 2013, 01:23:09 PM
You have to throw your guitar behind the drumset from time to time,that usually calms drummers down  :lol:
A marshall cab if they are really out of line.  >:D
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 27, 2013, 10:34:19 PM
My 2 cents worth is the Boogie STR tubes work really well in an MP1, that's what I had in mine before I sold it and went to an MP2.  The New Sensor Mullard reissues are awesome in my MP2.  I tried some STRs in the MP2 and they were great except they broke up a bit on the bottom E.  The Mullards are much more 3D and I'm now a convert.  As everyone says though, tubes are very subjective.  Fortunately 12AX7s are not too expensive so you can try a few variations (and end up with a drawer full of tubes).  Agree Dougs Tube are very good and provide good advice.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Hamer95USA on December 22, 2013, 11:42:16 PM
Whatever 12AX7 preamp tubes you buy, make sure that the preamp tubes are rated at 110mu.

Guitar George
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: heavyelement on January 04, 2014, 12:17:06 AM
I am addicted to the sovtek 12ax7wb tubes. I have been using them for years in all my amps . They have a warmer tone to them , I don't like a real bright sound in my distortion channel. To help this chart I posted should help all.
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh242/heaveyelement/Scan0001_zps22206e17.jpg) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/heaveyelement/media/Scan0001_zps22206e17.jpg.html)
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh242/heaveyelement/Scan0002_zpsdac58bc1.jpg) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/heaveyelement/media/Scan0002_zpsdac58bc1.jpg.html)
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh242/heaveyelement/Scan0003_zpsc92b0b80.jpg) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/heaveyelement/media/Scan0003_zpsc92b0b80.jpg.html)
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh242/heaveyelement/Scan0005_zps2ae6ac52.jpg) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/heaveyelement/media/Scan0005_zps2ae6ac52.jpg.html)
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh242/heaveyelement/Scan0004_zpsc92f7839.jpg) (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/heaveyelement/media/Scan0004_zpsc92f7839.jpg.html)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on January 04, 2014, 06:03:21 PM
Interesting chart, but I would like to know what do you guys think of the Noise chart?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on January 04, 2014, 11:40:23 PM
Hey Heavyelement, thanks for the charts, very interesting and also (as he says) provides a frame of reference for comparisons.

El Chiguete, the noise test seems/is more a test for microphonics I spose as they just tapped the tubes. So this would be indicative of what/how surrounding noise/vibration will affect/be picked up by the tube
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: heavyelement on January 05, 2014, 10:23:04 PM
The one thing I can't figure out is what el34 tubes to switch to, I hate the JJ's in my head.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on January 06, 2014, 12:00:44 AM
As with 12AX7s, there's plenty to pick from (6CA7/EL34).  NOS Mullards or RCAs are the go if you can find/afford them.  Also the older NOS tubes were pumped longer for a better vacuum and thus last longer.  Given how the New Sensor Mullard 12AX7s have been for me (f#cking great  :thumb-up: ), I'd try their EL34 re-issues.  But again it's very subjective and there are lots of choices.  Bit more expensive tube rolling on power tubes than input tubes.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: AxeHarmony on January 17, 2014, 06:15:32 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JJ-ECC803S-tubes-the-best-in-12AX7-type-long-plates-Brand-New-/150960202620?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item2325ede37c

this is an awesome deal...

JJ long plates, I don't like reg JJ, but these long plates have deeep tight bass and extended highs too (SCOOP) - these russian long plates sound great in the MP-1 as do the old GE USA long plate & if you can find a good deal get some old GE usa made long'ies  !!!
JJ's Long plates are pretty similar sounding compared to GT long plates the -R2  - the -R3 are the hi gain ones and I assume close to JJ high gains (made in russia ) I have not tried those but am curious if any one has comparded those with JJ's ??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Groove-Tubes-GT-12AX7-R2-Preamp-Tube-R2-Brighter-12AX7-R2-Preamp-Tube-/171196819257?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27dc202739
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on January 17, 2014, 07:30:09 PM
Hey AxeHarmony, great tips except he was asking about EL34s (output tubes), well that's my understanding ??? .  My Carvin TS100 has Grove Tube 6L6 tubes which are nice and transparent.  So GT EL34s would no doubt be reasonable (but I haven't tried them).  My 1972 Marshall 50 has US GE EL34s, they've been quite good over the years, prior to those I used Mullard EL34/6CA7s in it.  Probably a bit hard to find these days but there maybe some NOS (new old stock) available although as I said previously NOS tubes can be very expensive.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: AxeHarmony on January 19, 2014, 04:07:23 PM

no power tubes in an MP-1...

I was answering to this threads subject ... (mp-1 preamp tubes)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on January 19, 2014, 10:14:36 PM
The one thing I can't figure out is what el34 tubes to switch to, I hate the JJ's in my head.
If indeed heavyelement is talking power tubes (EL34s) we have wandered off the topic a bit.  No power tubes in an MP1 just 2 (3 or 4) 12AX7 pre-amp tubes
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on March 08, 2014, 08:16:58 AM

no power tubes in an MP-1...

I was answering to this threads subject ... (mp-1 preamp tubes)
Hey AxeHarmony, indeed you were, sorry, and some interesting tube choices at that, my understanding is that JJs are Slovakian tubes (ex Tesla) and that GT, Boogie, Ruby and others test/match JJ tubes and re-badge them, nice tubes though, great in a MP1.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Dante on March 08, 2014, 08:27:21 AM
I am addicted to the sovtek 12ax7wb tubes. I have been using them for years in all my amps . They have a warmer tone to them , I don't like a real bright sound in my distortion channel.

Y'know, those are the toobs that were in my first MP-2 and I tried a million other things only to put those two back in. Very warm sounding, as you say, and seemingly fuller than most 12AX7s (I also have a distaste for the fizz of a bright distortion sound)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on March 08, 2014, 08:51:30 AM
Hey Dante, I don't think/recall you've ever tried some Mullard new issues in your MP2, (a humble suggestion) give them a go (allegedly great in a MP1 also, they are very nice, warm and so 3D (what I like the best)), you've been playing long enough to really truly appreciate these tubes (I recon).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on March 08, 2014, 10:10:03 PM
Do I have to buy tubes that are matched for my MP1?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on March 08, 2014, 10:26:08 PM
My understanding of matched 12AX7s is they're matched for equal gain so while you can used matched pairs in your MP1, you don't have to (e.g. some put 2 different tubes in MP1/2 V1 and V2 for a particular sound/result).  Maybe a different story for the 3TM though (from MJMP: The 3TM works best with all 3 tubes balanced)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on March 08, 2014, 11:32:37 PM
From Doug's Tubes FAQs:
Balanced:  When the plate current draw of each triode is the same, we refer to that as having balanced triodes.
 [/size]High Gain:  Tubes that measured to have higher gain.
[/size]Matched:  Each triode of the preamp tube has matching gain.
[/size]And more:
[/size]Dual triode preamp tubes like the 12AX7 really have two separate tubes inside one glass envelope. When the plate current draw of each triode is the same(as evaluated by our VTV testers), we refer to that as having balanced triodes. These may or may not also have the same gain on each triode but are still considered balanced. Chances are that these are not required for your particular circuit. What we have observed after testing 1000's of preamp tubes using the Vacuum Tube Valley dual triode characterizer is that tubes with balanced triodes seem to be more consistent with a standard specification tube as to gain and low noise and microphonics.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: GonadiusPrime on March 19, 2014, 08:03:09 PM
My preference was the EHs.  They, to me, had the best chord definition while distorted and playing non-power chords.  Most other tubes seem to lose the non root-5th-root notes except the EHs.  But, that's just me and my personal preference.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on March 19, 2014, 09:05:53 PM
Nice to hear a vote for EH tubes, my 2nd MP2 came with a pair, they didn't stay in there long. I've been having a good run with Mullard long plate re-issues, they recently released a short plate version which would work well in a MP1.  Next tube change I'll try them.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: GuitarBuilder on March 22, 2014, 11:42:59 AM
Do I have to buy tubes that are matched for my MP1?

No.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: GuitarBuilder on March 22, 2014, 11:45:06 AM
I settled on Penta 12AX7B's in my MP-1 - from Doug's Tubes:

Quote
Warm, fat tone that is signature of the Chinese tubes, these are selected Shuguang 9th generation 12AX7's. Great for all musical genres. For more clean headroom in your amp, order this tube with the low gain option at no extra cost.(Similar to a 5751 in gain). Also known as the Groove Tubes 12AX7-C.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on March 22, 2014, 12:00:31 PM
There are lots of tubes that work and sound good in MP1/2s, my personal fav in MP1 are JJs (particularly the Boogie STRs which are usually JJs), and Mullard long plate re-issues in MP2 (very nice 3 D tubes).  There are now Mullard short plate re-issues, which should be very good in both MP2 and MP1 (including 3TM as very low microphonics, MJMP advises short plate tubes are better for 3TM..).  One thing I'd say about the Mullards, they are very 3D tubes, hard to really understand until you try them
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on March 28, 2014, 11:35:34 AM
Are these the ones that the chart in this thread refers as the top 2 higher gain Mullard and Tung-Sol?

http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/mullard-12ax7.html
http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/mullard-cv4004-12ax7.html

or
http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/tung-sol-12ax7-re-issue.html
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on March 28, 2014, 09:59:45 PM
Yes I think so as the Mullard re-issues are Russian made although the short plate variant (cv4004) is a new release.  However, while the chart is useful as a starting point, tubes of the same type can vary quite a bit.  Hence GT, Boogie, Dougs etc test and select.  From the chart you'd think the Mullards are the highest gain tube around, they may have been for their tests but there are other high gain (probably higher than Mullards) tubes around.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rickeb1 on April 16, 2014, 09:26:07 AM
I'd been using JJs in my 3TM for some time and was pretty happy with them.  But when I recently retubed the unit, it was suggested to me to try the long-plate Sovteks, 12AX7-LPS.  In comparison to the JJs, the LPS sounded thicker and meatier to me, so I kept them.  Maybe worth a look.  There is a review here:
http://www.thetubestore.com/12AX7-Tube-Review#sovtek2 (http://www.thetubestore.com/12AX7-Tube-Review#sovtek2)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on April 18, 2014, 10:43:10 AM
I've heard some good things about the Sovtecks also, although MJMP was reticent about long-plate in the 3TM from a noise perspective as short plates are typically less microphonic/noisy.  They all have their character though, e.g. I love the 3D ness of the Mullards but thicker and meatier sounds like a good idea  >:D
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: George I. on June 10, 2014, 10:49:09 AM
JJ only has ECC83S short plates


not to contradict you, but on the chart on the 2nd page there's clearly a JJ long plate denoted!  possibly you mistyped?

also, i have a fewJJ long plates  in my tube collection...i dont love them in the MP1...too round sounding to MY ears, and not spikey enough in the upper registers (i find my ears want those higher high later in life! LOL ).  i like an edgier, crunchier distortion...preferrably from a decently performing Chinese 12ax7b...though the jjecc83s will do in a pinch, i dont love them.  i have yet to REALLY get into a tube rolling situation in my mp1...i've owned a few, the mp2, and a classic...always came back to the mp1.  i debate modding my current one...it's in the least, due for a recap as all of the caps in it are originals.

too many options, not enough time!
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 10, 2014, 12:21:01 PM
JJ ECC83S are short plate tubes.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rickeb1 on June 11, 2014, 07:44:19 AM
Quote
too round sounding to MY ears, and not spikey enough in the upper registers (i find my ears want those higher high later in life! LOL ).  i like an edgier, crunchier distortion...

Hey George, given your preferences, I think you may like the long-plate Sovtek 12AX7-LPS.

~ Rick
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on June 11, 2014, 09:58:18 AM
Do you guys think that depending if you use a tube in an MP1 or an MP2 the tubes will have different tonal characteristics?

I just ask this because rnolan has good things to say about the new Mullards (but only tested on an MP2)... so should you expect the same good tone independent if its on a MP1 or MP2? or has someone tried out a tube on both the MP1 and the MP2 and on one sounded good and on the other not???
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 11, 2014, 02:10:39 PM
There will be differences due to the different design of the filters used in both MP-1 and MP-2.But they won't be big.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on June 12, 2014, 05:26:49 AM
They've been tested in MP1, when I was looking for tubes I was posting with a guy on the old depot who was the first to test the Mullards, he had MP1 and loved them, I bought 4 after that test and his comments, at that point I'd put in some Boogie SPA's in my stage MP2 (coz I could buy them at the local music shop), and found they broke up on the bottom E.  Put in the Mullards and they really suite my playing.
As MJMP says, there will be differences but overall not too big a difference between MP1/2.  The Mullards will be more 3D and squeal nicely (pinch/pick harmonics), the Boogies (JJs) have a beautiful controlled feedback.
There's other posts where a new member here put them in his MP1 and liked them allot.  He went with the short plates which I'm yet to try, put a pair in, tell us what you think  :thumb-up: I guarantee they won't be bad, and I suspect you'll really like them.

So I've used Boogie SPAs in both the MP1 and MP2, they work well in both but as I said above broke up a bit on low E in the MP2.  The MP2 has more gain so they sounded even better, but good in both a not big difference in tone. Compared to the Mullards I find the JJs a "tight" tube.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on June 12, 2014, 05:36:33 AM
Being the MP1 addict that I am ;) (I own 4 originals), I've used JJ's, reissue Mullards and Tung Sols.
The JJ's are nice for the price, I also have them in a first gen Carvin Quad-X. I have the Mullards in one of the MP-1's and they are fat, clean around the edges and overdrive/distortion to your hearts desire.
The Tung Sols....my favorite. Like the Mullards in many ways but more of a focused, hi-fi modded Marshall tone. I also have 9 of these in a 2nd Gen Carvin Quad-X and they turned it into a monster. The clean channels sparkle and Channel 4 became incredibly ass kicker.
AS always, this topic is subjective to an individuals taste and ear and this is solely my opinion. Any of the above will blow away the more common EH WA+WB variations.
Best regards,
Randi :D
And from earlier in this post....
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on September 13, 2014, 08:24:27 PM
Rnolan, I gotta hand it to you...I am sure you knew this post was coming.
After many suggestions, I finally took your advice (tubes are such a risk and I am tired of being burned).

The Mullard reissue 12ax7 is great---everything you said it was going to be.
The best sound through the GCS-3 ever (I might have to go back and change my posts about the GCS-3).
I can get a classic Marshall sound, a round fender sound, and even a round fender vibroking sound.
Also a massive improvement to the clean tube channel making things round and thick.

I haven't tried it through real speakers...but if it sounds this good through the GCS-3......it must be even better with celestions.

Prior to the Mullard, I recently changed to matched Ruby HG's and for my taste the sound was too shrill and thin (these tubes are soon to go on reverb.com).

Being risk adverse on tubes, I bought 1 Mullard to try it.
I first tried the Mullard in V1 and a Ruby HG in V2 - not very happy with the sound. Then I replaced the Ruby in V2 with an original MP1 tube and bang....major improvement.


Revision to my post:
My first mullard was a bad tube and it died after about 2 weeks. When I replaced it, the sound was incredible and plenty of distortion in V1 where it currently sits. I get the most color out of it when it is in V1 and my settings are OD1-7 and OD-2 0.7 (thanks El Chiguete) where a Ruby sits in OD-2 until the 2nd mullard arrives.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on September 16, 2014, 06:47:38 PM
Day 2.
The Mullard moved from V1 to V2 as I couldn't get enough saturation from it for solos in V1, and the original MP1 tube moved to V1. Sure I can play a solo well clean...
Now I have more than enough saturation and I still get the Mullard color I needed.
I am debating a 2nd Mullard for V1 - hesitant about getting enough saturation.

One thing having different tubes is I am really learning is the difference in V1 and V2; never really understood that before even though reading the manual and online. Seems that OD2 is basically your tube amp head's drive/distortion, and OD1 is basically your pre-amp head distortion pedal (to kick in for solos).

So I really like having 2 different tubes so I can add in a raw dirty sound when I need it, but I don't always have to live with a harsh sound.

Strange question: are there any tubes which mimic a digital distortion sound (for example, a grey modded DOD250)? That could make OD1 very dirty on top of my Mullard in OD2.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on September 16, 2014, 09:34:26 PM
I am debating a 2nd Mullard for V1 - hesitant about getting enough saturation.

I believe Rnolan changed both of his tubes to Mullards so he can comment on this (I want to know too).

One thing having different tubes is I am really learning is the difference in V1 and V2; never really understood that before even though reading the manual and online. Seems that OD2 is basically your tube amp head's drive/distortion, and OD1 is basically your pre-amp head distortion pedal (to kick in for solos).

This is just my reasoning behind how I setup my presets now. I set OD2 thinking the values of it like the type of tone/distortion that I want based on how much gain was available on the amp that I'm trying to recreate the tone:

60s marshalls = 0 to 4 (yes you can get sound out your MP1 using the OD2 at 0.0)
70s marshalls = 4 to 6
80s marshalls = 6 to 8

And then I use the OD1 settings for just how hot would I be boosting the signal infront of those amps to recreate more saturation of them or just go from rythim to lead tones. For example if you have OD2 at 0.0 and the OD1 at 1-2 you get a really clean marshall tone, if you go higher deppending on your pickups you will go for a more rounded clean to a clean tone starting to break up.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on September 17, 2014, 08:26:53 PM
Day 3.
With the Mullard in V2 and the original in V1, I have great distortion, however on clean tube I seem to have lost much of the classic thick round sound that the Mullard gave while in V1 which made it possible to get a sweet fender vibroking sound. Doesn't matter where I put the settings on OD1 or OD2.

It also seems like V1 and V2 are not equally driven - V1 seems to drive the same tube more than when it is put into V2.

So, maybe 2 Mullards will provide enough distortion....hmmmm
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on September 17, 2014, 09:46:23 PM
DUUUUUDE all I need is to hear how your test with the 2 Mullards goes for me to buy them! So no presure of getting the other one soon... jeje.

BTW, are you using the short plate or the long plate versions?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on September 17, 2014, 09:58:21 PM
They've been tested in MP1, when I was looking for tubes I was posting with a guy on the old depot who was the first to test the Mullards, he had MP1 and loved them, I bought 4 after that test and his comments, ...

I guess that was me ;-)

...
So, maybe 2 Mullards will provide enough distortion....hmmmm

Yap, 2 Mullard Reissues (Long Plate) will do the trick.
Another tube that goes in the same tonal direction with even more gain on tap is the Tube-Town TT E83CC (http://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/Tubes/Tube-Town/TT-E83CC-12AX7-Standard::4673.html)
A very full an rich sounding tube with a nice low end and a smooth top end plus more gain than a JJ ECC83 Hi-Gain labelled tube.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on September 18, 2014, 05:05:09 AM
Hey SC, it was a while ago  :wave: , I've put Mullard long plates in both my MP2s (the short plates are more recent but I'll give them a try next tube change). I use one MP2 in my recording rack and the other (I bought new many many moons ago) is still the mainstay in my live rack.  I fell for the Mullards from the start, best tubes I've heard in MP2, I love them, and as I've said before, they track your fretting in ways I'd never thought possible (3D??), the slightest change in finger pressure is tracked by the tube, and they love to squeal off harmonics mmmm. And plenty of gain  >:D .
The patches I use are my tones, I haven't tried to copy other sounds (I used to a bit more when I had MP1 and played lots of covers from different bands, but even then I just went for what I liked).  I put some new tubes in my old 1972 Marshall 50 a while ago and gave it a run, it was my amp/sound for many years, it was ok, but nothing compared to MP1/2....
I've not tried different tubes in V1/2, I love the sound I have with the 2 Mullard long plates.  For 3TM MP1s the short plates may be a better choice (based on MJMPs advice re 3TM tube choice) as sooo much gain and they should be a little less microphonic.
Anyway, based on both SCs MP1 experience and my subsequent MP2, my advice (for what it's worth) is put a pair in and drool  :whoohoo!:
There was another member who went with the short plates for his MP1 and loved them so it's not uncharted waters.
 
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on September 18, 2014, 11:40:46 AM
http://atoragon.blogspot.com/2012/04/which-tubes-choose-for-your-guitar-amp.html?m=1

Great post on choosing a tube.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on September 18, 2014, 07:00:50 PM
rnolan

On the 2x Mullards in an MP2.
You said plenty of gain....when you are pushing the distortion hard on OD1 and OD2...can you give a comparable example of a guitarist that it sounds like so I can understand how high they will go?

I already know they sound sweet and thick at low and mid levels, just want to know about where the useable top end is.

David
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on September 18, 2014, 10:13:40 PM
rnolan

On the 2x Mullards in an MP2.
You said plenty of gain....when you are pushing the distortion hard on OD1 and OD2...can you give a comparable example of a guitarist that it sounds like so I can understand how high they will go?

I already know they sound sweet and thick at low and mid levels, just want to know about where the useable top end is.

David

I think that question can not be answered easily per se....for Rnolan, cranking OD1 + 2 hard will sound like Rnolan cranking OD1 + 2 hard. With the MP-2 in particular, it depends on what type of Voicing is selected, further and in general for all (pre-) amps how the EQ is set, what kind of guitar, what kind of pups in the guitar, what poweramp, what speakers.....

If I hook up the MP-2 (Voicing 7 Warm HiGain, EQ set to taste) to my mesa 2:90 going into a 4x12 with all V30 and use an Ibby RG2620QMSP with DiMarzio CrunchLab bridge and Liquifire neck I will have a Petrucci'ish tone.
If I alter (the Voicing and) the EQ a tad bit, I´ll probably be able to do some Mark Tremonti
If I do that same thing on the MP-1 Classic it might go in the Doug Aldrich kinda direction.
If I do the same thing thing on my Mod3.1 MP-1 I´ll sure as hell can go in the In Flames 5150 sounding ballpark....play with the EQ and it does the SLO100 creamy thing.....

Know what I mean.....  8)

The tubes won´t alter the core tone of the (pre-)amp that drastically, they´ll just make it a little thicker/creamier and more 3D-like...
   
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on September 19, 2014, 03:42:12 AM
Hey David, SC is correct, it will just sound like me cranking the gain way up. Also I have Ultrasonic PUs in my Anderson (it was one of the first built and first one in Australia back when they used Ultrasonics).  The Ultrasonics are quite flat (reference series, very even bass, mid, treb) compared to other PUs so my eq settings reflect that.  My old rhythm patch (see MP2 patches) is the highest gain I use these days (and needs the gate).  I now use the new(ish) rhythm patch for both rhythm and lead and use the volume pedal (CC master vol) for lead volume boost.  It's a 5 warm vintage voice and has heaps of gain, great for rock. My old rhythm patch was good for 80s/90s covers, Billy Idol, Poison, Mr Big, Skid row etc but generally way to much gain for how I play now.
Maybe it's better to compare the 3 different tubes I've had in the MP2. Also I went from MP1 to MP2, the MP2 has lots more gain than MP1 (not that I needed more).
Original Chinese bottles, nice tubes great sound heaps of gain
Tried Boogie STRs (JJs most likely), nice tube plenty of gain, tight, greatttt feedback (just sings) but I found break up a bit on bottom E and not 3D at all.
Mullards, heaven on a stick (to my ears), again plenty of gain but sooo responsive to how I play.
When I get a chance I'll record some sound bights and post them and maybe try a super high gain for you to hear.
Seems the long plates are out of stock at the moment but the short plates are available. If you can afford $50, try a pair, I promise you won't dislike them, are they the tube for you ?  that's up to your ears but IMHO they are better than both the original tubes and JJs in MP2.  Oh and my 2nd MP2 came with a pair of EH 12AX7s, best thing I ever did was replace them with the Mullards, they don't sound good in MP2 (again IMHO).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 01, 2014, 09:10:14 PM
I think I broke my Mullard.

I stopped playing tonight and moved the Mullard back to V1 (turned off of course) to try something different.

I am getting zero distortion when the Mullard is in V1; OD1 and OD2 and Main are all turned up to 9 and 10. Voicing set on Tube Distortion. Cycled it just in case.
Just a weak clean sound. I thought I got at least some distortion in V1 back when I first got the Mullard.

Also tried various tubes in V2 and still nothing.
When I move the Mullard to V2 and put in a Ruby in V1, plenty of distortion.

Swapped back and forth several times but not different.

Any advice? It is a new reissue; not NOS.
I have a multimeter, but not a tube tester

Just ordered the 2nd mullard too....
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 02, 2014, 07:30:42 AM
Not sure but sounds a bit similar to what MikeB is experiencing, we've managed to blow 2 Boogie STR (jjs) in V1 1st went in 10 mins or so the 2nd after a couple of months, we think there are issues with the tube sockets ???? so Mike is going for a new tube board from MJMP, hopefully this will fix the problem ?
From what you say, it seems to me that both tubes are ok but one of the gain stages isn't working properly (last sat night Mike was on one tube, it was down on output/vol but the tone was fine so I miced him up through the PA). A good clean of the tube sockets wont hurt, with contact cleaner (MJMP what's the one you prefer ?).  What you are describing sounds to me like only one tube gain stage working (as one is enough to have a decent albeit not so loud tone), so possibly one of your tube sockets isn't working right.  But this is more MJMP territory...
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 02, 2014, 10:42:22 AM
Rnolan

When I move the mullard to v2 I get sound.
So wouldn't that indicate its a tube problem and not a board problem?
David
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 02, 2014, 01:28:14 PM
Well i never use contact cleaner in tube sockets because the cleaner is a liquid and dust can stick to it.This dust can begin to conduct at high voltages,especially with power tubes.So not a good idea.I never do this,if the sockets are worn i replace them.

What happends if you leave the Ruby in V1 and replace the mullard in the V position with another tube,does this change anything? (more gain,volume?)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 02, 2014, 06:15:12 PM
MarshallJMP

good advice. added 2 rubys and had noticable increase in distortion.
must be the mullard.

Also just noticed there is a blown tubes category- sorry.

I am checking on a replacement for the mullard.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 02, 2014, 06:17:08 PM
Anyone use a Yellow Jacket with the MP-1.

Just curious how and why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw6dyfJqnjA
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on October 03, 2014, 04:09:35 AM
Yellow jackets, red jackets, ToneBones....are tube-converters for your amp´s powersection so you can substitute different power-amp tubes (EL84/6AQ5....) for the mostly standard EL34 or 6L6 (Octal tube socket)

http://www.yellowjacketstc.com

These won´t work with preamp tubes (Noval socket).....

Soldano used to offer the so called Soldano HotMod (http://www.mo-toyz.com/shm/) which added another extra gain stage facilitating a part of the SLO100 circuitry and a triple triode tube, but I dunno if that one works in an MP1/2/Classic....

HotMod-Schematic attached  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 03, 2014, 12:58:21 PM
Well i tought so,anyway noow you're sure the mullard is busted.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 03, 2014, 06:32:12 PM
Just installed a new mullard in V1 and the sweet colorful sound is back......ahhhhhhh
No problem with having enough distortion as I first thought; the problem was probably that I had a dying tube in the first place.

Thank you Rnolan. #2 is on the way.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 04, 2014, 01:02:17 AM
No worries, hope you like them as much as I do  :thumb-up: Are you using the log plates ?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rabidgerry on October 04, 2014, 06:01:54 AM
I know I was discussing tubes else where about what to try, it seems more apt to chuck some of my findings on this thread.

I tried  two JJECC83S in my MP1 today and I did not like.  Before that I was running the cheap ass rubbish Chinese thing I got with the unit along with an Electro Harmonix in the first slot.  I was looking for more gain with the JJ's but they definitely lacked something.  They were clear but gain certainly felt lost.  I put the EHX back in number one slot and kept a JJ in the two slot.  See how this goes.

Quick question, if I installed the tubes wrong or there was a problem would I get sound?  Would Over drive 1 and 2 still be controllable or would they simply not work?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 04, 2014, 06:58:36 PM
Rnolan - I am using 12ax7's; long plates.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 04, 2014, 10:48:04 PM
Hey David, good choice IMHO.

Hey Rgerry, without bending the pins they only go in one way (slightly larger gap between first and last pin). You still get sound if one tube is blown depending on the slot, I think if V1 is blown but V2 isn't you get sound but much softer and less distortion. MikeB managed to play the night last Sat with one tube, the tone was still quite reasonable but he wasn't using really high gain lead tones. I put a mic on his cab and gave him enough volume through the PA to keep up with the band.
A pair of high gain JJs should sound good in MP1, albeit a little tighter and less 3D than the mullards.  JJs also have very nice controlled feedback, best I've heard.
So with EH in V1 and JJ in V2, if this gives plenty of signal and distortion and sounds ok then it could mean one of the JJs is blown ? If it is working this way, you can then try swapping the JJ in V2 and if no sound or very reduced, then definitely blown tube (JJ).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rabidgerry on October 05, 2014, 06:20:32 AM
Is there no other way of testing for blown tubes?  Na those JJ's make a weird noise as well.  It's quietish but like f**king police car wearing sound.  I think it's quiet because I have noise reduction on.

Going to make some sound clips of the difference and the JJ's weird noise.  Noise could have been from an appliance switched on next door perhaps but I will not know until I put them back in again.

Yeah then I fit my tubes correctly, pins match up of course, I was concerned perhaps they weren't in far enough.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 05, 2014, 07:01:19 AM
Hey Rgerry, push them in as far as they go, better contact with socket.  There are ways of testing blown tubes but needs a tube tester.  But if it works, it works, i.e.  you can swap them around and work out if they are blown.  Through in a pair of new Mullard long plates, if they don't cook for you I'll be surprised (and as I've said before, I'll buy them from you if you don't like them  :thumb-up: ).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: George I. on October 05, 2014, 09:27:31 AM
Quote
too round sounding to MY ears, and not spikey enough in the upper registers (i find my ears want those higher high later in life! LOL ).  i like an edgier, crunchier distortion...

Hey George, given your preferences, I think you may like the long-plate Sovtek 12AX7-LPS.

~ Rick

thanks man!

im looking for a more edgy, spikey paul gilbert-ish type distortion. i will def give the LPS a spin...i have a literal SHIT TON of 12XXX preamp tubes so once i have a chance i will be rolling tubes in my MP1.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rabidgerry on October 07, 2014, 05:52:39 AM
Hey Rgerry, push them in as far as they go, better contact with socket.  There are ways of testing blown tubes but needs a tube tester.  But if it works, it works, i.e.  you can swap them around and work out if they are blown.  Through in a pair of new Mullard long plates, if they don't cook for you I'll be surprised (and as I've said before, I'll buy them from you if you don't like them  :thumb-up: ).

ok man tested them again, the jj's went back in, no weird wirring sound this time.  But not a lot of gain!!  I changed one out in the 2nd slot for the EHX.  Rubbish!!!  I noticed as well the EHX did not glow at all were as the jj in slot one did glow.

I swapped the EHX out for the cheap chinese tube I got with the unit.  Better sound for sure, bit more gain.  Then I took the JJ out of the first slot and put back in the other chinese leaving the two chinese in both slots.  Sounded a bit better again.

I'm leaving the chinese tubes in, there is definitley more gain (not tonnes but enough to do in the mean time).  Both lit up as well, I had the cover off to check.

I will have to sell on my jjs I guess and EHX
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 07, 2014, 08:57:17 AM
Did you try to adjust T2 for more gain?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rabidgerry on October 08, 2014, 11:06:31 AM
is this the trim pot?  Beside the switch for line/instrument level switching?  Haven't looked at it at all.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 09, 2014, 03:59:06 AM
Hey RGerry, theres a trim pot (as in circuit board mounted variable resistor, adjust with small screw driver) in each MP1 gain stage (not sure where they live on the board but they will be near the (or on the tube board ?)).  MJMP/others will fill us in (or check the schematics).  These (sot of) control gain levels in the in the V1 and V2 circuits (as does OD1 and OD2 levels so they work together). I think this is what MJMP is referring to.  There's another post where MJMP explains exactly what they do. Changing these trim pots will change the amount of gain in either the V1 or V2 circuits so you can match up the tube gain to taste (I assume that's what they are for ?). Never had to touch them myself.  So from MJMPs post, my take is he's suggesting you crank up the T2 trim pot (open top, locate T2, adjust with small screw driver) to get some more gain in the V2 circuit (but now I'm assuming T2 is in the V2 circuit, it may be in the V1 circuit ? but whatever, will add gain by turning up).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 09, 2014, 01:10:08 PM
T2 will give you more OD1 gain.There's a trimpot layout pic somewhere on the forum,just do a search for it.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 10, 2014, 09:41:51 PM
So 2nd unmatched mullard 12ax7 long plate arrived and I got a chance to test it out.

Before I put in the 2nd mullard, I had 1 mullard in V1 and the original Chinese tube (which is awesome) MP-1 in V2.
In V1, I had intense color and a very fat tone from the Mullard and I enjoyed using El Chiguete's settings (putting V2 close to zero).
Basically I could get the fat sound and then add more distortion with V2 when I wanted it. Really, really nice.

So, in goes the 2nd mullard in V2.
Day 1: Might be too much of a good thing. Plenty of distortion and it is very British but far beyond a Beatles British but more like a thick Marshally British. It takes articulation to an extremely higher level....you have such HD sound it is like hearing Angus' vibrato scraping the frets on that Gibson SG type of articulation--not something you hear in today's amps. And if you make a mistake, you guitar will scream it out. It is hard to explain in a convincing manner, how much of your playing it projects....I heard Rnolan say it was HD and I thought "sure, maybe"....but it is a lot for me and I am big into articulation. Huge difference between tubes.

With 2 mullards, I did not get very good sound at  El Chiguete's settings. Not sure why, maybe the Mullards do not work well at low levels?
Also, with 2 mullards, the color changed to where it seemed like V1 and V2 were competing for who will color the sound the most.

I will keep trying it out but my first thought is that I might prefer the Mullard in V1, an original in V2, and El Chiquete's settings. Reason is I get the thick sound, Mullard distortion, and basically  clean to overdrive pedal from V2 with the Chinese tube.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 10, 2014, 10:09:50 PM
Hey David, more 3D than HD lol, but hard to describe until you hear it.  The way they track your playing is amazing, every little nuance comes through.  Sounds like Mullard in V1 and Chinese tube in V2 is the go for you  :thumb-up: .  The original Chinese tubes the MP1/2 came with are great tubes and lasted for years, much longer than expected.
I believe Angus's guitar is a Les Paul Jnr but they look exactly like an SG.  I assume they custom make them for him these days, and I've seen the Angus model in shops.
Anyway glad you like the Mullard, as you say they really suit an articulate player.
Cheers Richard
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on October 11, 2014, 07:44:55 AM
Wow my crazy idea is liked by people!!!!!!!!!! jeje. When I get the chance I think I will buy 2 Mullars and try them out too (maybe I will get the same results as you trader144). But remember that the idea of my settings on the OD1 and OD2 is that you set OD2 to the maximun gain that you want to create (think of like the top shelf/ceiling of overdrive/distortion that you can have) and then use OD1 to achieve that maximun gain when you have it set high or to clean it up when you have it low...

For example: if I want an old AC/DC sound I would probably use (deppending on how high the pickups are on your guitar) a OD2 set around 4.0 and then set a lower OD1 for rhythms and a high OD1 to get a good drive and sustain for the solos. And if I want a higher NWOBHM or higher gain tones I set the OD2 like at 8.0 and then do the same as before on OD1.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 12, 2014, 02:37:08 AM
Hey El, nothing wrong with crazy ideas, particularly if they work  :thumb-up: It's good that your inventive and like to experiment (and share !!!), it's also a good way to learn how it all hangs together, there are many variables and also everyone's taste / playing etc is different. I haven't tried the Mullard short plates yet, from all reports they are very good so I want to hear how they go compared to the long plates (which I love), but then they really suit my playing style.
So thanks for you "crazy" contributions  :wave: :whoohoo!: , keen to know what you think of the Mullards (long or short plate) when/if you get some.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MikeB on October 13, 2014, 12:08:55 AM
Since I blew one of my (well, rnolan's) Boogie STRs and have a brand new tube board on the way from Belgium, I thought I better get around to buying a new tube. So I have ordered a Mullard short plate to go with the on remaining good STR.  I will have hours of fun trying it in both slots and playing around with EC's crazy ideas.  Can't wait to get stuck in.   :whoohoo!:
This is to go in my stock mp-1
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 13, 2014, 03:29:39 AM
Hey Mike, from what David was saying using the Mullard in V1 and Chinese tube in V2, I started thinking of a set up with STR in V2, so you get the lovely 3D of the Mullard in V1 but maybe preserve the fantastic feedback of the STR ? Cool so we (you and I) get to check out the short plates  >:D
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 13, 2014, 08:09:36 AM
I ran across a software program called Bias by positive grid.
Check out their YouTube videos.

What a great education in how different amp components change the sound.
Less expensive than 1 new tube.

Not suggesting to use it live but more about narrowing down the sound components before you spend money on them and end up with unused inventory.

David


Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on October 13, 2014, 08:29:40 AM
I ran across a software program called Bias by positive grid.
Check out their YouTube videos.

What a great education in how different amp components change the sound.
Less expensive than 1 new tube.

Not suggesting to use it live but more about narrowing down the sound components before you spend money on them and end up with unused inventory.

David

http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=636.0 (http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=636.0)

http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=674.0 (http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=674.0)

 8)

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on October 13, 2014, 10:42:35 AM
Since I blew one of my (well, rnolan's) Boogie STRs and have a brand new tube board on the way from Belgium, I thought I better get around to buying a new tube. So I have ordered a Mullard short plate to go with the on remaining good STR.  I will have hours of fun trying it in both slots and playing around with EC's crazy ideas.  Can't wait to get stuck in.   :whoohoo!:
This is to go in my stock mp-1

Will you buy just 1 short plate Mullard or 2? That way you could try them on both at the same time.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MikeB on October 13, 2014, 12:59:13 PM
I have spent a lot of money on the this amp and the rest of my rig lately. I don't really have the income to be able to justify confinued spending so at this stage i am going to stick to just the one .  Certainly can't afford to get into tube rolling. 
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 14, 2014, 08:06:32 AM
Hey El, I'll probably grab a couple of short plates and chime in with Mikes tube rolling, I want to try a few variations in both MP1 and MP2 (fortuitously Mike and I don't live far apart  :whoohoo!: ).  I must say however, 2 long plates in MP2 really sing....  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 15, 2014, 11:00:05 AM
Another Mullard down

Accidentally left my mp-1 turned on after practice overnight and during work for about 17 hours and no sound came out.

Are these inherently weak tubes or should I expect to blow one like this if I leave it on for an extended period of time? The Chinese tubes still work.

This mullard one is from a different vendor than the past one.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 16, 2014, 04:31:44 AM
Hey David, you should be able to leave them on 24/7 without issue, the on/off hot/cold spikes is normally what kills circuits/components over time. I've been flogging the Mullards in both my MP2s' for quite a whi;e now and they are fine.  We've had a few tube losses in MikeBs MP1 of late (but they were expensive fully tested Boogie STRs not Mullards), he's installing a new tube board from MJMP, it may just be the tube sockets are due for replacement ?.
So no they are not inherently weak tubes (from my experience anyway).
Cheers R
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: darthphineas on October 16, 2014, 03:45:32 PM
put this over in the "tubes" area, but since this is more active, I thought I'd drop it here as well.   :wave:




when it comes to the total best QUALITY preamp tube for the original MP-1, and when you take cost out of the equation, which tubes are the best for the ORIGINAL, out-of-the-box ADA MP-1 tone?...that are currently available?  lol!

--- note, this is about a QUALITY product and the ORIGINAL tone, and not about cost savings ---


brand?
JJ? Tung-Sol? Groove Tubes (or Groove Tubes Gold)? Ruby? Mullard? Sovtek?


model?
12AX7?  12AX7A?  ECC82S?


other specs?
short plate?  long plate?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 16, 2014, 08:05:43 PM
darthphineas,

It depends on the music you want to play and what type of sound you need to pull out of your instrument.
Tell us what type of music you are going for and what amps you prefer.

For people like myself and Rnolan, we like highly articulate, thick, round, 3D sound (bluesy, ACDC, Malmsteen, and/or classic Marshall) where you can extract extreme tonal variation; Mullard is where it is at for us.

For others who may like death metal or hard core....probably something else.

On my other post - the software bias by positive grid allows you to swap out different tubes, power supplies, etc to hear what they will do to your sound for a total cost of about $20. Its a great learning tool for all the factors that go into preamp and amp sound.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on October 16, 2014, 11:10:18 PM
The Original MP-1s came with Chinese (no spec brand) 12AX7A tubes in them.
The best current production Chinese 12AX7A is (imho) the TAD 12AX7A-C (RT001).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 17, 2014, 01:12:27 AM
I really liked the original Chinese bottles (short plates IIRC) in both MP1 and MP2, while I'm now a Mullard convert for all the reasons trader144 says.
My first tube change in the MP1 when I had one was to Boogie STRs (tested, picked JJs).  Whatever you pick you want high gain, low noise, low micrphonics.  They all sound different so as trader says depends on your music preferences and how you play.
Mullards and Tung-Sol are re-issues by New Sensor (who bought a bunch of brand names) and are Russian made.
JJs and I think Sovtek are Slovakian IIRC
GT, Ruby, Boogie etc buy various tubes from different manufacturers and select the best, e.g. MJMP likes Ruby JJs.
But to answer what sounds the closest to stock, I'd say probably JJs based on my experience with the Boogie STRs.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: darthphineas on October 17, 2014, 04:13:05 AM
Looking for the closest thing to the original tubes for the closest thing the original voicing.  I built my patches around the original tunes and would like to keep it that way.

More recently, I've tried the JJ ECC83S and found that after a couple of year of hobby-level playing that they are needing to be replaced. This is the only tube preamp I've had, so it seemed unusual to me when previous tubes lasted many, many years. If it is just how tubes are made these days, then that's fine and now I know.

But for now, I'm looking for the best and most durable and longest lasting tubes that are like the original voicing...and if it's $20 each instead of $10 each, that's fine.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on October 17, 2014, 04:37:29 AM
....
But for now, I'm looking for the best and most durable and longest lasting tubes that are like the original voicing...and if it's $20 each instead of $10 each, that's fine.

>> TAD 12AX7A-C RT001 (US) (http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/vacuum-tubes-tube-amp-doctor/TAD-12AX7A-C-Vacuum-Tube#.VEEASofB4UU)

>> TAD 12AX7A-C RT001 (Europe) (http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Premium_Tubes_TAD_Pre_Amp_Tubes_SELECTED/12AX7A_C_ECC83_TAD_Premium_Selected_7025_12AX7WA_E83CC_391)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: darthphineas on October 17, 2014, 05:34:31 AM
....
But for now, I'm looking for the best and most durable and longest lasting tubes that are like the original voicing...and if it's $20 each instead of $10 each, that's fine.

>> TAD 12AX7A-C RT001 (US) (http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/vacuum-tubes-tube-amp-doctor/TAD-12AX7A-C-Vacuum-Tube#.VEEASofB4UU)

Thanks. I've been peeking around their site.

Does the C at the end have any relevance to the tone. I picked up some 12AX7 tubes about 20 years ago with the C on the end. I think they were Ruby Tubes. I seem to remember they were higher gain in a way that made even the clean settings grainy and scratchy. I've always thought that had something to do with the C on the end. Or is that a flavor of the Ruby brand?

The V1 and V2 combinations are interesting. probably my biggest concern is risking that grainy/scratchy quality again. has anyone tried this TAD in the suggested V2 with the suggested RT010 (  http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/vacuum-tubes-tube-amp-doctor/TAD-7025-E83CC-Highgrade-E83CC-Highgrade-Cz-Vacuum-Tube#.VEEO8N08KK0 ) in V1?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 17, 2014, 05:36:35 AM
Ok so I didn't read the question well sorry.

I agree the original tubes lasted very long probably because quality control in china was higher back then.

Systematic chaos, How would you characterize the tubes in your link?
I remember them to be pretty round and dynamic.

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: darthphineas on October 17, 2014, 05:40:57 AM
Ok so I didn't read the question well sorry.

I agree the original tubes lasted very long probably because quality control in china was higher back then.

Systematic chaos, How would you characterize the tubes in your link?
I remember them to be pretty round and dynamic.

A-ha!  Then I feel better. Those original tubes last a VERY long time and I seem to remember finally changing the, out just because they had worked so long and I figured ID better change them before they suddenly crapped out. I have a few sets of older tubes setting around, and a few are totally unmarked and I sadly neglected to mark them in anyway to know if they might be the old original ones. lol!

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on October 17, 2014, 11:31:23 AM
....
But for now, I'm looking for the best and most durable and longest lasting tubes that are like the original voicing...and if it's $20 each instead of $10 each, that's fine.

>> TAD 12AX7A-C RT001 (US) (http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/vacuum-tubes-tube-amp-doctor/TAD-12AX7A-C-Vacuum-Tube#.VEEASofB4UU)

Thanks. I've been peeking around their site.

Does the C at the end have any relevance to the tone. I picked up some 12AX7 tubes about 20 years ago with the C on the end. I think they were Ruby Tubes. I seem to remember they were higher gain in a way that made even the clean settings grainy and scratchy. I've always thought that had something to do with the C on the end. Or is that a flavor of the Ruby brand?

The V1 and V2 combinations are interesting. probably my biggest concern is risking that grainy/scratchy quality again. has anyone tried this TAD in the suggested V2 with the suggested RT010 (  http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/vacuum-tubes-tube-amp-doctor/TAD-7025-E83CC-Highgrade-E83CC-Highgrade-Cz-Vacuum-Tube#.VEEO8N08KK0 ) in V1?

The letters attached to Chinese (Shuguang) 12AX7 refer to different stages in design.
The first ones were the A, then followed by B and C. In the 80s and 90s these were highly regarded go-to current production tubes.
The techs at Tube Amp Doctor simply took the (in their opinion) best bits and pieces of all 3 variants and combined them in their 12AX7A-C. This specific tube is manufactured to TAD specs for them by Shuguang in China. TAD then further selects them to their specs.
The TAD 12AX7A-C is indeed a very dynamic and articulate sounding tube, in direct comparison way less compressed sounding than e.g. the JJ ECC83....and less forgiving (in terms of playing)
I liked the TAD in the MP-1 in the V1 spot so as to set the overall tube sound/character and a different warm sounding tube (RT030, JJ ECC83) in V2 to further saturate the initial V1 character....
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 18, 2014, 02:38:29 AM
The main reason tubes don't last as long these days is they are not pumped as long (see tube article post here somewhere).  In the old days tube makers had their own metallurgy sections also to play around with different alloys etc for cathode anode etc.  But longevity (as long as the tube is used within specs) is more about the vacuum (like a light bulb, they can make them last forever (ish) and do for ships by pumping more/better vacuum to handle the vibrations). Also on/off hot/cold cycles have an effect (not just on tubes, but all components). The amp makers (the biggest consumer of tubes) have no reason to have tubes last a long time, for them it's good if they can sell you some new tubes every year or two.
Original ADA tubes were specked (in ADA manuals) IIRC to be changed MP1 ~ 2 years, and MP2 ~ 1 year. Also the manual notes to let your tubes cool down before you move the unit.
My personal experience, the original Chinese tubes in bot MP1 and MP2 lasted for ages (so very well pumped, well made), the Boogie STRs I put in the MP1 we only just changed out recently (though it spent some years in storage while MikeB was in London), although the old ones still work fine.
Also tubes go off slowly so you don't really notice until you put in a new set (e.g. MJMP changes his 3TM tubes every couple of months or so to keep the sound/edge he likes).
An interesting point SC makes is the more articulate tubes are less forgiving (as in track every little nuance of your playing), I like this aspect, others may not.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: darthphineas on October 18, 2014, 04:20:08 AM
The difference in quality over the past 25 years makes total sense. As does any company that wants people coming back all the time....as seen by lack of fuel efficient cars, disposable razors, etc.  lol!

I've been getting vibes from the preamp for at least a week, but it finally got to the point of it really affecting things. I'm not certain about some of the spare tubes I have sitting around, but I did pull the Sovtek from my spare MP-1 (those tubes came with it when I bought it pre-owned last year) and it livened things back up.

Crapping out this soon was a bit of a surprise at first, as the rack is stationary and doesn't leave that room. I also let things warm up for a few minutes before playing and let things set for a few before turning off.   Suppose it's just the times we live in. lol!

It was suggested to me that the tubes in a preamp like this are hot-swappable. I've never done that. I can understand if it might save the power cycle wear on components, but is that safe for the tubes?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: darthphineas on October 18, 2014, 06:36:28 PM
Grabbed a few pairs of new JJs at the guitar show today. The same booth had the TAD RT001 as well, so I thoigt I'd try a pair of them. And holy cow. Thanks for the recommendation of the TAD.

First off, it seemed to make the amp louder. Not more gain, just sounded like the volume knob went up.  Sounds like the same voice, but better. Am liking these so far. Not slamming the JJs by any means at all, as I do like the JJs, but the TAD RT001 sounds like someone too a blanket off my cabs. Definitely appreciate being directed to the TAD.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 18, 2014, 10:51:39 PM
Cool good to know, go SC your the man LOL.
(like someone too a blanket off my cabs), same with the Mullards when I first put them in my MP2
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on October 19, 2014, 12:09:53 AM
This is what´s in my MP-1:
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/MagnusBausW/MP-1Mul.jpg)

TAD 12AX7A-C in V1
NOS Mullard (Blackburn) ECC83 in V2

...also notice the new tube board (the ones from MJMP) with the slightly bigger size Orange Drop 716P caps.
Large Orange cap on the right is also a tiny mod that made the overall sound more "breathing" like and extended the lower freqs somewhat
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on October 19, 2014, 08:05:34 AM
First off, it seemed to make the amp louder. Not more gain, just sounded like the volume knob went up.  Sounds like the same voice, but better. Am liking these so far. Not slamming the JJs by any means at all, as I do like the JJs, but the TAD RT001 sounds like someone too a blanket off my cabs. Definitely appreciate being directed to the TAD.

So where did you put the TAD? V1, V2 or both? Also how did it sound with the OD2 at 0.0? Did it go clean or not? Trader144 mentioned that the Mullard didn't liked ¨my settings¨ idea of working at low levels in OD2.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Dante on October 19, 2014, 08:57:14 PM
I'm pretty sure I use a TAD in my MP-1 Classic too, the other one is a Sovtek or a JJ...can't remember right now. The TAD is for the clean stuff, the other tube is for your gain stuff. (I think)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: gtmm on October 22, 2014, 09:31:36 PM
Great thread! I'm oblivious to the subtleties of tubes, so it's nice to read all the opinions and ideas.

Good stuff!
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 23, 2014, 04:38:30 AM
Hey gtmm, Absolutely, and I'm seriously considering a TAD for my MP2, time to roll some tubes lol (thanks SC  :thumb-up: ).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 23, 2014, 05:50:10 AM
Hope this isn't confusing, this thread kind of belongs here... :banana:
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on October 23, 2014, 08:34:49 PM
Can't wait to see what Marshall says of the Mullards after he tests them!
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 24, 2014, 02:43:40 AM
Hey El, I suspect he will like them for what they are (a "very" articulate high gain low noise tube), it depends allot on what and how you play if they suit you, also his fav Ruby JJs are not shabby tubes. But I'm with you  :thumb-up: very interested (as I'm sure are others) in what he has to say (pressures on MJMP lol).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on October 24, 2014, 07:33:15 AM
What I want to hear more is his direct comparison of the short and the long plates individually and together in different settings of V1 and V2.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 27, 2014, 12:50:55 PM
Ok I have been playing around with the bias software and it is really cool for learning.
One thing that I overlooked is first defining the function of the tube before selecting a tube

So let's say for example I wanted an SRV sound (and I do not plan on using a tube power amp which is important). I would think that most of today uses of the MP-1 are not relying on distortion and compression from a loud power amp as in the past so I am using the MP-1 differently than in the past.

Sound goal: My OD1 would be a tube screamer that I kick on and off, but OD2 would always be set to sound like a Fender Vibroking at stage level volume (please ignore the equipment specifics)

What this means in the above example is that I should find a tube that sounds perfect in OD2 when it is set at very high levels (say 9.0) so I am maxing that tube out and getting my primary Vibroking stage level sound (round thick articulate with stingy distortion).

Then, I add the extra tube screamer sound via OD1. At low levels OD1 is basically clean and at high levels the thicker distortion kicks in.

But it doesn't seem to work this way because the distortion from OD2 gets really thick at low levels. OD2 of course is a preamp but it does have a different type of saturation than OD1.

So it seems like I should put something fat round and articulate in OD2 that stings only at high levels but does not provide a lot of distortion at 9.0.  This way I always drive OD2 at one consistent high level. If the mullard is the right color but too much distortion should I go with an 12AT7/12AY7/12AV7 so that I get the color but only stingy distortion at say 9.0 on OD2?

Found this interesting comparison:
Gain Factor of common 12A*7 tubes.

12AU7 = 20
12AV7 = 41
12AY7 = 45
12AT7 = 60
5751 = 70
12AX7 = 100

David
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 27, 2014, 01:22:51 PM
Can't wait to see what Marshall says of the Mullards after he tests them!

Have,'t got the time yet.I need 48 hour days  :lol:
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on October 27, 2014, 08:35:42 PM
Should I consider a mullard with a red jacket to achieve this in OD2?

What's a red jacket?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 27, 2014, 09:10:31 PM
it was a mistake; i modified my post
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on October 28, 2014, 06:01:49 AM
Hey El, MJMP will get to it LOL.
Hey David, interesting conversation, and I get where your coming from.  Kind of ties in with what SC is doing with a TAD in V1 and NOS Mullard in V2.
So far I've gone for 2 Mullard long plates in my MP2s (and very happy with them BTW), after the posts of late though and playing my Epihone SG (Gibson 57 re-issue PUs) through them the other night (they are so huge), I'm considering going for 2 different tubes.
I think IIRC from what MJMP explained re the way the MP1 tube stages work, that you thoughts are generally correct, OD2/V2 is kind of the master vol (ish) and the main tone is set in OD1/V1 (= tube screamer ish).
Now SC is using the TAD for initial tone/distortion and using the very open 3D Mullard to follow. I was thinking (also based on other posts) to go the other way, Mullard V1, TAD or maybe tight 2d Boogie STR (JJ) in V2. However SC's idea is better gain structure (2D > 3D) will allow the sound to expand.  I'll give both a go and let you know.
MikeB and I are coming up for a tube rolling session (his MP1, My MP2)
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on October 28, 2014, 06:51:39 AM
MikeB and I are coming up for a tube rolling session (his MP1, My MP2)

This should be a live webcast for all of us to see and hear! jeje
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 28, 2014, 03:17:59 PM
Well the signal flow is a bit different,so it goes like this;

Input to input buffer then into a SS preamp (the famous U4 opamp ,gain of this opamp is controlled by OD1 and T2) then for clean tube the signal goes to the first tube unaffected but in dist tube a mid filter is applied,so you have a clean boost (clean tube) or a mid boost (dist tube).The signal from V1 to V2 is controlled by OD2 and T1.T1 and T2 are the trimpots that set the range of  OD1 and OD2.

V1 has 2 modes,in clean tube ,only the high frequencies are boosted,in dist tube it's full blast  >:D

A tip;try to replace C16,C12,C7 and C6 on the tubeboard with 10µF caps,this will lower the hum and it cleans up the sound a bit.Best is to use panasonic NP caps (non polar).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on October 29, 2014, 12:43:26 AM
Good that MJMP mentions the U4 opamp.
IIRC part of the standard noise-mod is to replace the "standard" TL072 dual opamp that comes in the U4 slot with a socketed BurrBrown OP2604AP.
The OP2604AP is well known amongst DIY'ers to give a more "tube-like" warm sound/response when used in OD stages.
If you´re after a more clean/hi-fi/open yet tube-like kinda character, the OP2134 is a good alternative.
I´ve used that IC when modding some OD stomps (TS, Marshall Jackhammer,...) in order to provide a more transparent sound when used on the front end to boost/tighten up tube amps.
YMMV.....
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 29, 2014, 06:12:05 AM
Great info thank you for sharing

Given SC's post on the TAD 12AX7A-C RT001 and the description on the site, I ordered one and will try this next to a Mullard.
I also listened to many 12AX/AY/AU/5751 videos on youtube and all were good, especially the 5751.

It will be interesting to see if there is a big difference between the new TAD and the original MP-1 tubes that still seem to be good.

I really like the Mullards, but after having 2 of the 3 mullard reissues I have bought from different vendors go bad I am a little hesitant on their reliability.

David

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 29, 2014, 07:17:04 AM
IIRC part of the standard noise-mod is to replace the "standard" TL072 dual opamp that comes in the U4 slot with a socketed BurrBrown OP2604AP.

Small correction,the original U4 opamp is a NE5532.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 30, 2014, 01:58:31 PM
My 3rd Mullard Reissue quit working today; it was in V1.

Anyone have any ideas why the Mullards keep dying?

The original tubes still work.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 30, 2014, 02:16:35 PM
Is your mp-1 modded?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 30, 2014, 02:58:05 PM
no it is all stock.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 30, 2014, 03:19:29 PM
Ok i know tha EH's die alot in a 3TM and i tought since both are russian tubes,maybe these fail too.But since it's not modded...
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on October 31, 2014, 12:22:12 PM
Given that other tubes work, I guess the Mullard reissues either have quality issues, or they do not survive against my stock board components.

Since I gotta have the Mullard sound, but can't change tubes every month, I will try an alternative: Groove Tubes GT-12AX7-M Mullard-style ECC83 Preamp Tube

David
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on October 31, 2014, 12:58:44 PM
Yeha but I'm no expert on tubes... but is it normal to have tubes go bad after a month??? I don't think so.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on October 31, 2014, 03:06:48 PM
Well i had new tubes fail within a minute,so yes it can happen but 3 times is alot.Maybe the problem is the low heater voltage that destroys these?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MikeB on November 02, 2014, 01:57:38 AM
Having just replaced my old tube board that was blowing up tubes I have bought a mullard short plate and put it in V1.  Surviving Boogie STR in V2. I now understand what is being said about the mullards. I have to admit that this tube is totally exposing my sloppy technique!!  :facepalm: I can clearly hear every little nuance in my style (intentional or otherwise). In the short term this will be frustrating but I'm hoping that in the long term i will be forced to sharpen up my playing.  It has only been in for a week or so,  so i can't vouch for its longevity. Fingers crossed that i get more than a month out of it.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 02, 2014, 02:29:29 AM
Hey David, 3 in a row from different suppliers is very strange, did you tell the suppliers ? Maybe there's a bad batch which didn't get the vacuum sealed properly ?? Particularly since the other tubes don't have an issue. SC's had one in his MP1 for ages though his is a NOS so they pumped the vacuum better back then.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Systematic Chaos on November 02, 2014, 02:36:15 AM
Well i had new tubes fail within a minute,so yes it can happen but 3 times is alot.Maybe the problem is the low heater voltage that destroys these?
+1

Isn´t the MDRT taking care of this? (Higher and way more stable).

Also, I been using Mullard RIs (long plates) in my Triaxis since 2011 and had never one to fail. That specific rig was also transported in various rapid changing temp and rough environments (C130 Herc, C160 Transall,...)
No issues 
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 02, 2014, 03:21:44 AM
I think Davids MP1 is stock, but it shouldn't be blowing tubes where others work fine. Seems more like a bad batch to me, as most experience (and mine) with the Mullards is they are a very solid tube, like SC (well not quite the same  ;) ) mine get a good shaking down some country tracks very regularly (and some times my wall warts shake loose).  If there was a bad batch from the factory, many suppliers may have a few of them.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 02, 2014, 04:55:24 AM
Thanks all
Are you guys using mullard NOS or reissues? I was using reissue long plates in a very stable temp environment.

Maybe they can't handle the shredding  ;)

The vendors all warrantied them and took them back or replaced it.
Not sure if this matters but my battery just died yesterday after 35? years of faithful service.

I am going to try the noise and battery mod (on the way from marshalljmp) with the groove tubes and see what i get.

If not good enough I will probably go with the mdrt (anyone want to get rid if an uninstalled kit?)

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 02, 2014, 03:32:31 PM
FWIW, I have tested the tubes SC recommended: TAD 12AX7A-C RT001

I agree with SC, they sound very, very close to the original MP-1 tubes. Hope they last as long.

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 03, 2014, 01:54:06 AM
Hi David, I've got 4 x long plate reissues, 2 in each MP2, they haven't miss a peep/beat and they've been in a few years now and get regular use. Also they go up and down to the coast from Canberra 700 metres down to sea level and back, and also get a nice bump down a dirt track in the back of a ute (pick up in US ?)
Unfortunately no new tubes (that I'm aware of) will last as long as the old Chinese bottles, they were pumped much longer back then, better vacuum = longer life. In this throw away age, they don't have much incentive to make them last more than maybe a year or 2. That said, these Russian tubes are still going strong and still sound great. I still think it was a bad batch from the factory.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MikeB on November 03, 2014, 02:17:57 AM
Well now I'm all concerned that there's a bad batch of mullards around. Trader, were yours the long or short plates?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 03, 2014, 03:59:52 AM
Long plates.
My MP-1 is all stock and I will be doing the noise/battery mod soon.

I am really thinking about MarshallJMP's comment about the transformer....it is 34 years old.

David
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MikeB on November 03, 2014, 11:56:58 AM
I've gone with a short plate. Up until last month, mine was completely stock.  Now has a new MJMP mod shop tube board and noise mod.  Now that there is this heater voltage issue, i will definitely go the MDRT  transformer mod....just as soon as he gets some more in stock.  I also worry about the age of this thing.  I'm pretty sure i dont own anything else that old, and if i did i probably wouldn' t be expecting it to still be performing perfectly every day.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 04, 2014, 03:10:20 AM
They are amazing preamps, and as you know MikeB, that MP1 has done allot of gigs, as has my live MP2.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 06, 2014, 06:25:50 AM
Tube question:

When I listen to artists and the MP-1, it seems that there is some sort of a distortion curve and a compression curve in a tube.
To get the right "sound" you need to drive your tubes to an intersection of these two curves that you prefer. Further to maximize the sound quality your tube choice needs to operate well at this intersection.

For me, I want this from my mp-1 and microtube/gcs-3 at bedroom levels:
1. OD2 to have full driven tube compression with a little sting at all times (like a clean setting on a tube amp that is driven too hard to be clean)
2. Kick in more distortion with OD1.
3. Mullard sound

I can get 2 and 3, but #1 escapes me. I have a mullard 12AT7 on the way to try because the 12ax7 and 12at7 combo sounded great on the bias software.

Anyone been able to do #1?

David


Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 07, 2014, 02:34:29 AM
Hey David
Interesting question. First is a bit of how you use the word compression, tubes have a very wide dynamic range and, as such, don't compress in the same sense that compressors do (i.e. reduce dynamic range of a signal).  However, clipping a tube (as we do to make distortion does make the softer parts of the signal louder comparatively, so from a guitarist perspective they dynamic range is flattened (not that tubes can't be used in a compressor circuit, the better ones do, but not to compress (in a pure audio sense))). So I'm not sure about a compression curve as such.  The distortion is caused by clipping, feeding in more than it's designed to take (the design of these tubes comes from making them as clean as possible), fortuitously for us guitar heads, tubes clip giving off even harmonics which sound nice (as we all know and use). So any distortion curve will relate to how a tube reacts to being over driven into clipping.
Re 12AT7 (there are some other posts relating to this model and how it reacts after a 12AX7, and also used as a phase splitter in a tube power amp).  12AT7s are bright (a bit harsh), less gain and higher current than 12AX7.  Better choice may be 12AY7, more rounded than 12AT7 but similarly less gain than 12AX7.
Personally, I'm really liking the 2 Mullard 12AX7 long plates in my MP2s.
But let us know how you go with the 12AT7  :thumb-up:
Cheers R
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 07, 2014, 05:14:08 AM
Thanks I was sure I was describing it wrong
There is something that limits the sound when fully driven and for the more classic tubes you can hear some of the frequencies seem to hit a wall and the sound seems to compress. Maybe this is the rounding but I got an excellent round sound with a mullard at low levels.

At this wall the tube gets overdriven, the frequencies barely push past and the distortion is more of a stingy unplanned type, not fuzzy or digital. It's Like the tube is sweating.

I am getting too much digital and not enough cleaner round from my mp-1.

Is getting to here simply trying 12ay/Au/5751?

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 07, 2014, 07:22:28 AM
Hey David, advice to me (audio file tube head Friend) is stay away from 12AU7s (they have their place but not for this), ATs and AY7s will work and may do what you want ?? The great thing with the Mullards (long plates) is they are so open (good clean linear gain), no fuzz or other crap (well that's my experience with them in MP2).
Whats the rest of your patch set up ? What/how are you combining EXs ?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 07, 2014, 02:03:25 PM
I would go for a 5751,AT and AY are not really suited for use in the mp-1 altough you won't damage anything.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on November 07, 2014, 04:27:04 PM
I would go for a 5751...

Can you comment more on this tube and in when would you use it for?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 07, 2014, 09:12:38 PM
Looks good (https://tubedepot.com/products/us-made-jan-philips-5751), not cheap though.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 07, 2014, 10:44:36 PM
I use these in my mp-2,since i only use it for clean sounds this is the ideal tube for it.It's actually a military version of the 12ax7 but with less gain (µ=70) and less noise and microphonics.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 07, 2014, 10:50:02 PM
Given how much gain the MP2 has they would probably work well for the distorted sounds as well.  These days I'm even finding I want to back off the gain on the warm vintage sound I'm using.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 07, 2014, 10:51:52 PM
Well there's a difference in sound,and you hear that these tubes have  lower gain.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on November 08, 2014, 07:17:21 AM
Yeha when I went to visit you you told me that you use your MP-2 for cleans only.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 08, 2014, 06:10:28 PM
Results of testing a Mullard 12AT7 NOS from the 60's in a stock MP1, V2 position with a Groove Tube Mullard spec tube in V1:

The 12AT7 had lots of power and was pretty clean right up to about 8.5. Really great clean chimey Hifi sound; I have never heard the MP-1 so clean.
It did what I wanted - dialed back the distortion and allowed me to push V2 hard and maintain a standard clean sound, then dial in V1 for distortion when I wanted some.

What I didn't get:
The fat round 3HD Mullard sound that RNolan has gotten me addicted to. I couldn't compensate for the lack of it with the MP-1 EQ - it just wasn't there.
When I did push the tube into distortion, it wasn't the type of distortion I wanted; the distortion was fuzzy, not purposeful.

So, exactly what MarshallJMP said...but you never really understand what it means until you try.

David
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 10, 2014, 06:51:28 AM
A question for the experts:

It seems that OD2 should the MP-1's primary sound coloring and OD1 should be used to drive OD2 into more distortion by pushing more power into it.

Under this, if I wanted a fat mullard sound I should put the mullard in OD2 and get my primary sound by finding a max setting for OD2 and keeping OD1 at a minimum.

This would make OD1 less critical for sound color and more critical for adding the right type and amount of distortion.

In the past I have been using both OD1 and OD2 for sound color by keeping them under 4.6 each and I think the real problem was I did not have the right tube in OD2 t get the real color so I had to back off of both to avoid bad sound.

Any thoughts?

Other questions:
1. how does the input pot affect OD1 and OD2? I noticed that some of the pictures on this site have it turned up all the way.

2. Does the master volume affect OD1 or OD2?

David



Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 10, 2014, 06:53:43 AM
On the groove tube mullard spec I tested:
I would put it at about 75% of the HD and color of a Mullard Reissue. Still a really good tube especially if you don't want the HD clarity of a mullard.

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 10, 2014, 03:24:43 PM
Other questions:
1. how does the input pot affect OD1 and OD2? I noticed that some of the pictures on this site have it turned up all the way.

2. Does the master volume affect OD1 or OD2?

David

The input pot sets a range on the OD1 setting.So for example,if you set the pot half way you have a range from 25% to 75%,all the way down it's between 0 and 50%,and all the way up from 50 to 100%.Now don't take these numbers too serious,just trying to explain what this pot does.

No the master vol doesn't affect OD1 or OD2.But some people say it does affect the tone of the mp-1.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 11, 2014, 04:21:20 AM
From my reading of the MP1 signal path/gain structure (thanks to MJMP :thumb-up: ) but also combined with some of Els experiments (e.g. OD2=0), you set your main tone and distortion/clip through V1. This is driven/effected by guit PUs, input pot and trim pot (coloured/shaped (2D, 3D etc) by tube), this then feeds the V2 circuit (where you can do as Little as possible e.g. OD2=0) or add more gain.  You've been on a path of keep OD2 circuit clean hence turn gain down with a lower gain tube, you can also lower the gain of 12AX7 by turning down OD2 BTW, and if Mullard long plate, keep the 3D..
All the different combinations and OD1/2/Voice settings will make a difference. One of the slight downsides to these sort of gadgets, is they are so adjustable, when do you say- stop- that's the tone I want  :facepalm:
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on November 11, 2014, 04:44:18 AM
I look at it like the OD2 is how much possible gain you can get (much like if you set it low you have a low gain amp and if you set it high you have a high gain amp) thats why you can go dow to OD2=0.0 and then OD1 is how much you can boost/overdrive the amp (like when you have a booster/overdrive pedal in front of a clean amp).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 11, 2014, 05:02:41 AM
Thanks Marshalljmp turning up the input pot makes a big difference to the sound I get from the tubes. I kept it at half way for leveling but more.

Rnolan. I thought that V1 was the input overdrive that pushes more power into V2. So to me it makes logical sense to reverse what you said. V1 and V2 have different types of distortion.  If I look at the tube in V1 as a pedal between guitar and preamp and V2 as the actual preamp tube, my V1 (pedal type distortion) should be less about color as V2 (tube preamp type distortion) because V1's job is to drive V2.

In a 4 valve amp, when you crank the distortion, are you cranking all tubes or just the input tubes?

I could be wrong and interested in everyone's thoughts.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 11, 2014, 05:39:25 AM
Hey David,  in a traditional guitar amp (which is combination of preamp poweramp) you can chase distortion in either. With ADA MP1/2 you want a clean transparent power amp. In an amp with 5 tubes (e.g. my Marshall '72 50w), so 2 x preamp tubes (12AX7s) 1 x phase splitter (12A??) 2 x EL34 output tubes, as per posted elsewhere here phase splitter makes the difference to output tube distortion (not my game BTW).
In the end, you need to change the the V1 and V2 settings to what "you" like (I run my power amps clean and tranpaent, and get all the tone I want from MP2 + FX through mixer). My personal experience is M long plates in both V1 and V2 (works for me).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 14, 2014, 05:19:57 AM
http://www.tgpwebzine.com/?page_id=83

Good article on tubes including a Mullard alternative
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 15, 2014, 04:55:50 PM
When I look at the schematics there is a definate difference in the size of the negative resistor between V1 and V2. This means they are biased differently.

Based on the very small V2 resistor I would say it is probably near center biased. Based on V1 having a larger resistor than V2 I would say it is not center biased.

So consistent with the MP-1 user manual, V1 and V2 have different purposes as in V1 is for more distortion than V2. So different tube purposes..

Notwithstanding the above, most of the color comes from
V1 since that is the first place the sound is being duplicated/amplified.

David
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 15, 2014, 08:16:38 PM
trader,keep in mind that the kathode resistor of V1 is not connected to ground but to the -15V,so that's why the reistance is higher!
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 16, 2014, 04:15:31 AM
And also different EQ is applied in the tube circuits depending on voice setting.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on November 25, 2014, 05:44:23 PM
Rnolan can u explain more?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on November 26, 2014, 05:17:17 AM
Rnolan can u explain more?
My understanding, and MJMP knows this better than me BTW, is that part of the choice of different voices (MP1 - SS,Cln T. Dist Tube) or (MP2 10 tube voices) etc. changes  things in the tube/(and SS MP1) circuits. Some of the change is eq, e.g. the MP1 Dist Tube has mid boost (MJMP has posted about this elsewhere here). My understanding is that this eq is in the V1 and V2 circuits (apart from overall eq).
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: j4q0 on December 08, 2014, 07:27:19 PM
Took me a while but managed to read all the 12 pages, lots of interesting comments and questions.
So far mos of the preamp tube talk if for a stock MP1 aside from some mention about using long plates on a 3TM (which is the one I have)
I have been using a couple of Baldwin long plate tubes with good results but decided to change them for a mix of Boogies SPAX7A and Russian short plates.

I try to ride the volume of my guitar to play with different colors of overdrive and go to a quasi-clean tone but as MarshallJMP mentioned to me some time ago the 3TM has just too much gain to clean up nicely riding the guitar volume.

Though I like the way the 3TM sounds and has very low noise these tubes are old and I'm considering getting new ones, any other advise besides the Sovtek LPS long plates and the JJ to get a tight punchy high gain tone with enough bite but not thin sounding?

I like the description of Rnolan and the 3d of the Mullard, would this be a good idea for what I'm looking for? I like articulation and like that tracking of your every move like I've read this tube provides.

Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on December 09, 2014, 03:13:44 AM
Hey j4q0, Now I've heard a Mullard short plate (in MP1 V1 with Boogie STR/SPA in V2), the Mullards open up your sound and are very articulate and will suit volume riding but there's so much gain in 3TM as MJMP says. The Mullard long plates have more depth (but that's in my MP2), I found the 1 short plate in MP1 went the right direction. But as I run 2 long plates and love it, I wanted more  >:D . Theoretically the short plates should be less microphonic than the long plates, maybe at super high gain ?? but I haven't noticed. So an approach might be grab a few Mullard long plates and/or short plates, and try adding them one at a time from V1, V2, V3. You may find just one in V1 works for how you want it to sound ? The boogies are nice tubes , great feedback mmm >:D best I've heard BTW but a bit 2D, tight, not expansive. But the Mullard short plate in MP1 V1 with Boogie STR/SPA in V2 makes quite a difference. One comment MikeB made after he put them in was he had to be more articulate in his playing (as they track everything so well (good and less intended LOL)).
These are high gain tubes, but the articulation shines through even with copious distortion.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: El Chiguete on December 29, 2014, 07:52:48 AM
Can't wait to see what Marshall says of the Mullards after he tests them!

Have,'t got the time yet.I need 48 hour days  :lol:

No time for testing them still?
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on December 29, 2014, 09:33:04 AM
For me after spending some time with them the Mullards were very 3D but I am leaning back to the original MP-1 tubes. The original MP-1 tubes have better note separation although the distortion is more digital sounding and there is more useable distortion range.

The Mullards have more of a classic overdrive sound but I think I have to give up note separation which is not a tradeoff I can accept.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on December 29, 2014, 09:42:51 AM
Maybe do a hybrid of one Mullard and one Boogie STR/JJ, works quiet nicely in MikeBs MP1 (V1 Mullard short plate/ V2 Boogie STR/JJ). I agree though the original tubes were very good, hard to get these days though. And I do find the Mullard long plates an improvement, but that's in MP2.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on June 09, 2015, 06:18:29 AM
Based on input from SC, it seems the closest modern tube to the original Chinese bottles are the TADs, so worth a try if you want the original stock sound, (which is awesome  :banana: )
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: Dante on July 06, 2015, 04:07:08 PM
IIRC, I have a TAD in one position and something else in the second position of my MP-1 Classic. I can't remember the details, but the TAD is great for clean sounds with lots of headroom. The other tube (whatever it is) is more for saturated gains.

I'd have to take the Classic out of the rack to figure it out, but it's marked on the top of the unit, so I don't have to take it apart to find out.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: trader144 on July 23, 2015, 10:48:24 AM
Go with a dual amp setup: an original MP-1 thru one amp and a mullard Mp-1 through another amp.

The original mp-1 will retain your note separation and the second mp-1 will add in the mullard sound


Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: dmax on December 03, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
I see this is kind of an old thread but here's my 2 cents.

I put TAD's (Tube Amp Doctor) in my ADA MP-1. They work fine for me and I like them. I put the 7025/E83CC (RT030) in V1 and the 12AX7A-C (RT001) in V2.  I tried the 7025 WA (RT080) but it had more gain than the other two and it noticeably increased the noise level in the distortion voice (which is not normally noticeable).

There are probably some other combinations that would work well too.  The TAD and Humbucker Music websites have good descriptions of all the tubes.
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: rnolan on December 03, 2018, 09:53:41 PM
Sounds like a good combination  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: New Tubes Advice
Post by: van Sinn on December 03, 2018, 10:25:43 PM
I too use a TAD, though it's the RT001 (IIRC), as v1 in my MP-2, and a NOS Philips ECC83 in v2 pos.
The RT001 is a bit edgy and serves to brighten the pre-gain tone, while the Philips is more full-bodied and serves to round-off as a finalizer.
I would probably choose a Mullard reissue as v2 if/when the Philips goes to vacuum heaven.


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