ADA Depot Too - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear

Non ADA Gear => Rack Gear => Topic started by: rabidgerry on August 10, 2018, 11:47:59 AM

Title: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on August 10, 2018, 11:47:59 AM
Ok guy's, changed my setup to what I had said I was going to.

UK/Ireland Rack Rig:
Power Conditioner
Power Amp              (Rocktron Velocity)
Noise Gate               (Boss NS-50)
Pre-amp                  (MP1 or Rockmaster)
FX Unit                    (Boss GX700)
Midi Control             (Behringer FCB1010)

Took me a very long time to program the FCB1010 the way I wanted to.  I go on tour next week and I was hoping to get it all sorted so I could take the new setup on the road with me.  Spent most of this week battling the FCB1010.  Had it pretty much programmed they I wanted but I had issues with the god dam expression pedals.  To summarize they were acting totally broken and as though they needed calibration.  They did not.  The way they were behaving also seemed as though they were suffering from a known issue where the optical sensor that operates the expression pedals was too sensitive and basically screwing up.  I spent a long time trying the few fixes that are out there but to no avail.

It turned out I had programmed a little bit of conflicting instructions into the 1010 that was causing haywire behaviour but I had a eureka moment last night and got it sorted!

Tomorrow I test it all out in the live / rehearsal situation.

Few question for you all and any help is appreciated.

Should I try my best to isolate my gear to prevent ground loops?  The reason I ask, is because now I've added another piece of rack gear to my rig and another power supply I am getting a hum.  It can barely be detected with noise gates etc working, but I'd like to try resolve it or reduce it as best I can.

Should I use my ground isolator (ART Clean box II) which has sorted the issue in the past by having my send from FX unit run through it first before going into my pre amp?

also should I do any of what this guy is doing on this website?

https://aperioguitar.com/2012/02/23/grounding-fizz-and-cable/
 (https://aperioguitar.com/2012/02/23/grounding-fizz-and-cable/)


Any advice is appreciated.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on August 11, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
No one got nothing to add on isolating units within racks to eliminate hum then?
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MarshallJMP on August 11, 2018, 02:28:50 PM
It sometimes helps and sometimes makes it worse. Some of my rack units are isolated, some are not.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: Kim on August 11, 2018, 03:23:12 PM
I just screw everything in without isolators initially.  If there's a problem after that, then I determine which unit or units need to be isolated.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on August 11, 2018, 10:45:21 PM
Hey RG, it also depends on what's causing the hum, isolating works (I suspect) with ground loops which can be very tricky to pin point.  But it can also be caused by gain structure issues, and as is the case with my IPS33, mechanical vibration from the transformer into the case/lid.
The link you posted is a good one, he makes lots of sense and provides good advice.  Seems I'm lucky with my rack, I haven't done anything special, some of my cables are good quality, some are just the multi colour ones you buy in packs of 8 (or whatever), these are ok in the rack coz they don't get connected/disconnected, with these cheap cables, the plugs aren't soldered, the cables attachment is held in place by the plastic molding.  I do my best to keep power leads away from signal leads.  Once I have everything plugged in, I tidy the leads with cable ties.
Maybe to track this hum down you should turn the noise gates off ?
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on August 12, 2018, 07:56:52 AM
I'm pretty sure my hum is coming from the fact that two units are powered by a wallwart/power pack.

I'll give you an example, before I dropped the floor unit for FX I got hum going into the rockmaster.  I was able to determine that this was because I had a ground loop being cause from running a pre in fx unit loop.  I did this by detaching the earth in the rockmaster plug.  Hey presto no hum.  So the solution to this was use the Art Clean box II.  Yes worked a treat.

Toward the end of the floor unit use I started running a different way,  I was going direct into the pre and then having the pre out go into the return of the fx unit.  This sacrificed the use of front end effect from the fx unit but also eliminated the need for clean box II which is a ground loop isolation box.

So moving onto where I am now.  I use two unit loops, one for noise gate and one for FX.  Using the clean box gets rid of the hum and basically the noise gate keeps it 95% unnoticeable.  However there is still a bit of hum.  And it's because there are two loops being used.  The noise gates loop and the fx units loop.  I could run the clean box in both loops I guess since it has two separate transformers for decoupling earth loops but I was just wondering if there are any other things I could try instead hence the question about isolating on the rack itself.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MarshallJMP on August 12, 2018, 02:16:24 PM
Can you give a bit more info about those 2 loops you are using, maybe a schematic of the routing?
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: van Sinn on August 13, 2018, 02:52:40 AM
Some devices have everything internal fully insulated from ground, with only the earth pin in the power cable acting as ground.
This is the preferred way of ensuring single-point grounding, in order to avoid ground-loop [hum], because the builder can now use ordinary jack cables, and arrange single-point grounding for each device at the common mains summing point.

Other devices have their in/out jacks grounded to chassis.
This not preferable, as there's the possibility of ending up with grounding through both the mains prong and simultaneously through the signal cables - because of the chassis-grounded in/out jacks.

As Kim said, the builder can start with simply mounting and connecting the whole shebang, and see if all is ok.
If hum is present:
* either disconnect everything, and then reconnect one device at a time, until hum appears.
* or, disconnect devices one by one until the disappears.

Hum most often develops when using, say, external processors in send/return loops, simply due too signal cables carrying ground in a loop-structure, while this external device is also being grounded through the mains prong.

When the hum-hum device has been found, a usual remedy is to isolate it from the rack rails using insulated bolts and washers and maybe a strip of gaffer on the rails to avoid chassis contact.
Sometime it's possible to use custom signal cables having the ground flex connected at only one end - best option is to leave the open-ground end of the cable connected at the Send jack.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on August 13, 2018, 05:12:27 AM
Hey RG, a thought, it may be a dud wall wart ?  There were posts previously about the wall warts to phantom power the ADA midi pedals causing noise.  Worth a try  :dunno: .BTW, most of the ADA jacks don't earth to the case, eg Mike had really bad hum on his B200s when he changed the output jacks to standard, to fix he changed them to the plastic collard jacks that don't contact the case (as they came with).
At the end of the day, isolating each unit from the rack rails etc seems a good idea (though good quality units "shouldn't" need it).
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: Soloist on August 13, 2018, 06:13:55 AM
Hey RG, you might want to isolate the velocity. In my experience the Rocktron equiptment is usually the culprit. Great gear, shitty ground loop hum. My old Pirhana pre amp was the same way.  :headbanger:
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MarshallJMP on August 13, 2018, 08:28:33 AM
Also use different wall warts for different fx stuff, don't use one and split it up.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on August 14, 2018, 03:01:27 AM
I shall post a diagram later of how I have everything hooked up.

Ok so most of my power is coming from the Furman, I have one walwart for the NS-50 plugged into it.  I noticed this power supply has a plastic ground pin, not sure if that's relevant.

Then the power supply for the GX700 has a separate power supply.  I have no more adapters to plug this into the furman so I just have to connect it to the mains.  The plug on this also has a plastic earth pin.

Richard, no dud walwarts mate, just think it's to do with my setup.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on August 15, 2018, 03:36:04 AM
Hey RG (Richard, no dud walwarts mate, just think it's to do with my setup), good to hear, can you split the Furman feed (output) so it does both wallwarts off the same Furman outlet ? use a double adapter or small powerboard ? Then all the earths are off the Furman.  Obviously the plastic pins mean the wallwarts don't earth that way (as most wallwarts don't (haven't come across the plastic pins before, here they just have 2 (active/neutral), however, the units will join the ground via their jacks and/or through the rack rails (which I hadn't considered until the article/blog you posted the link to).  Having one WW outside the Furman earth chain "may  :dunno: " be causing the hum ??
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on August 22, 2018, 02:24:09 PM
Hi all,

just back from a week long tour of England.  Dam tired!

Anyways before I went I randomly isolated the GX700 using tape on the rack ears and also the same with NS-50.  Then used washers with the rack screws and one little rubber tab on top of the ns-50 to separate it from the gx700 above it in the rack.

The outcome, well the whole tour I heard no hum.  One place had terrible noise, but that must have been down to either the lights or the wiring as it was that horrible buzzey noise you get.  It musta have been bad because I have a shielded guitar and also a noise gate which did silence it, but you could hear it if I didn't have hand on strings.

Anyways the earth hum seems to have gone.  And I only isolated the two units using walwarts.  I will be able to tell properly if there is hum once I am back in the rehearsal room.  I didn't use the Art Clean box once the whole tour to safely remove an earth.

Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: Dante on August 22, 2018, 07:07:19 PM
What a GREAT tip  :thumb-up:

Thanks Gerry, now I'm going to take all my racks apart and put a thin piece of rubber behind all the ears. Wait, better yet, I can just plastic-dip the rack rails and then reinstall.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on August 23, 2018, 02:39:10 AM
Hey RG good news  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: van Sinn on August 23, 2018, 03:15:44 AM
Hehe, that's what Harley (IIRC) wrote about years ago - isolating all devices from the rack rails (as I reproduced above).
Hum is damn annoying; good for you it's gone.
WRT lights possibly causing hum.. this will only happen if something in the rack is subject to receiving the electro-magnetic radiation/interference produced by those lights. Again, ground loops, incorrect shielding, unbalanced cables...

Joke: Audiophiles are unbalanced, single-minded people, because they're using single-ended, rather than balanced, cables..  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on August 23, 2018, 04:49:13 AM
Now bare in mind I did not isolate everything.

So items that were not isolated where my Furman PC, and my Peavey Rockmaster preamp.  I think I noticed on observation that the preamp and furman don't seem to touch although could be easily isolated if they were.  Regardless if they are touching via top and bottom panels is irrelevant anyway as I didn't put tape around the rack ears, so for what ever reason, those two units don't seem to have an issue, where as the GX700 and NS-50 which both use separate walwarts do have an issue.

I will send a few pics and also post how I have wired everything up.  I had an idea about how to run things a bit differently (by not using the ns-50 loop for tracking the guitar) and hopefully reduce the hum but in practice, when I tried this in London the noise I was getting from lights/poor wiring was so bad I just continued with my original method of

Guitar > Ns-50 Guitar in > Ns-50 Guitar Out > GX700 In > GX700 Send > Rockmaster In > Rockmaster Out >

Ns-50 In > Ns-50 Out > GX700 Return >  GX700 Stereo Out > Rocktron Velocity
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on August 23, 2018, 03:16:45 PM
diagram
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on August 24, 2018, 04:08:29 AM
Hey RG it seems (my guess) the wall warts caused issues because they don't have an earth, so the unit will earth other ways ie connectors/jacks and rack rails. So when you isolated them from the rails they now earth through the jacks only. 
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on August 26, 2018, 04:07:42 AM
Now I don't know exactly the details, but what you are suggesting Richard, makes sense.

And to think when I was running my rig using a floor FX unit I had to use the ground loop isolation box to get rid of the hum  :lol: and of course I had those really long cable runs.  My set up time is a lot quicker now as most of the cabling is contained in my rack cases and I only really have to plug a few things in now and run a guitar cable, speaker cables and midi cable (using the FCB1010 controller which initially I thought was broke but turned out it was a conflict in my programming of the expression pedal A).

I don't know whether to isolate any of the other units,  should I or should I just leave it?

I played a show last night (night my best performance) in Belfast and noticed no hum what so ever.  Bare in mind this hum I'm talking about wasn't blatantly coming through as I have the noise gate, but you would catch a bit of it before the noise gate would shut off the sound or when the strings where un muted.  Now I detect none of that.  Where I noticed the hum most was in our practice room, so I can be sure this has really worked once I get my rig back into that room.

Looking forward to that test.  This is my first fully rack mounted setup.  Sure I can't take it abroad with me but it's nice to do all the uk shows with this setup.

See pics attached.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/imziqlmyo01ag6t/WP_20180826_12_34_29_Pro.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/imziqlmyo01ag6t/WP_20180826_12_34_29_Pro.jpg?dl=0)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/10h95dg97xs3x86/WP_20180826_12_34_55_Pro.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/10h95dg97xs3x86/WP_20180826_12_34_55_Pro.jpg?dl=0)

sorry I cannot rotate these pics in shit dropbox!
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on August 26, 2018, 06:05:35 AM
Hey RG, unless you get hum when you do the practice room test, then I suspect you've got it nailed for now  :thumb-up: .  I don't get any hum in my rack and nothing is isolated at the rails (SKB 8 RU rack).  I have one long power board (velcroed vertically to the rear right hand side) which just has one overall on/off switch.  Everything plugs into it.  The Quadverb and Midiverb 4 both have Alesis power adapters, wall wart for MXC foot switch phantom power, MP2, MB1, Carvin DCM 200L and mixer all plug in directly.  Like you, I just plug in 2 speaker cables, the 7 pin midi cable and a guitar lead... nice easy setup.  And mostly I just use 1 ADA Slant split stack wired stereo.I have a small wheely case (aka plane carry on style) which I carry the MXC, expression pedal, Quad switch, leads (guitar, speaker, midi, power extension), tuner, sweat bands, capo, slide, towel and small triangle guitar stand, and sometimes a few mic leads.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 03, 2018, 03:48:03 AM
Not sure I added this part in about programming the FCB1010 the way I liked, but here goes.

So I had the issue of not being able to get things to switch on and off like I wanted without having to create separate patches for everything due to the limits of the FCB1010.  Well it turns out I was able to get what I wanted to happen by having FX controlled by the same CC message.

So for example, I thought I would need three separate CC’s to do what I wanted, which was to turn an effect on whilst turning another effect off and also boosting the volume.  However I was wrong.  I didn’t realise that I actually just needed assign the same CC to the three assignable parameter changes.

So by having (for example)  CC1 programmed into turning Chorus module off, also to turn Delay Module on, also boost Output a little I was able to get the three functions all to happen via the press of one switch.  Then to reverse the changes, press the switch again to turn the Chorus back on, Delay off, and lower Output.  This is totally perfect for my needs.  Now some of you guys may have thought of that already but to me it took a little time for the penny to drop on how to achieve my goals.  So if any of you ever need to do more than one thing at once with the press of one midi switch and haven’t thought about it before, remember, if you can program in one of your patches effects to come on and off or parameters to change using the same CC message, you can pull this off.  Apologies to anyone of you who have already thought of this and think it’s plainly obvious to do that.

Hopefully this can help someone in the future.

Now my FCB1010 is programmed how I like and my GX700 is programmed how I like I have a fully functioning rack set up that has already completed two and a half mini tours.


Mikeb, do you know how to use the Switch 1 and Switch 2 outputs on the FCB1010?  I was thinking it would be cool to implement these as well.  Any advice would be very welcome.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on October 03, 2018, 05:37:06 AM
Hey RG, Glad you got it working the way you wanted it  :whoohoo!: . And good info for those playing around with their FCBs or similar.  The main thing is working out what you want to happen (requirements) and then how to implement them.  Different gear has different capabilities and possibilities and there are generally a number of ways to achieve the outcome (requirement).  ADAs implantation of CC was early days and various units have limitations compared to more recent bits of kit.  Your FCB can do so much more than my MXC but a MP1 ignores everything except patch changes, so you have to map what you've got to the other stuff you've got.  Often that involves multiple patches to achieve the result (one way to go), what one can do with one CC toggle message depends on what the receiving gear can respond to, or what it has to be set to as a starting point.  E.g. the MB1 has to have some on/off parameters (like chorus on/off) on in the patch so then you can toggle it.My "limited" understanding of the FCB from chats with Mike is pressing 1 button can do a bunch of stuff (good news for modern man) and you can program it from a PC interface, the main thing though is working out exactly what you want (which you've done  :thumb-up: ) which is the plainly obvious bit to me.  How you achieve it then depends on what you have and understanding what it can or can't do.  E.g. like Mike having a FCB, MP1 & GMaj2.  So the MP1 is just going to respond to patch changes, the GMaj2 however, will respond to lots of stuff from the FCB including various CC messages including 2 expression pedals.Anyway it's never really plainly obvious (well maybe sometimes if it's really simple), while what you can do may be obvious if you know the gear well, what someone else wants is what they want.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: Chip Roberts on October 03, 2018, 12:02:08 PM
Sort of co-opting the topic of foot controllers and continuous control, does anyone know a good resource to go to for programming this stuff?  I'm trying to get my ART unit to talk to the pedals on the ART X15 controller and the manual is very cryptic.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 03, 2018, 02:06:58 PM
Mikeb, do you know how to use the Switch 1 and Switch 2 outputs on the FCB1010?  I was thinking it would be cool to implement these as well.  Any advice would be very welcome.  Cheers.

Hi Gerry,
The switch outputs are intended to interact with gear that uses a simple switch to change settings rather than midi. For example, if you had a midi effects unit and an amp head,  the fcb can be switching your amp channels as well as sending midi stuff to your effects unit at the same time without you having to tap dance. All my gear is midi, so I have never used them. The tc g-major 2 has an output like this as well,  so I could control three switched devices at once if I had them and if I wanted to.
Just realised that I'm telling a lie. I have a Marshall combo that I could control like this if I ever used it.
Hope that helps.
Cheers.
Mike
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 04, 2018, 11:16:23 AM
I get ya now Mike.  Perhaps I could wangle it so I could change channels on my Peavey Rockmaster, it has a three channel, one foot switch input socket and using the right kind of pedal you can switch between clean, crunch and ultra.  A stereo lead does the trick.

Mike do you know how to programme the FCB so that pressing a preset patch will also send 2 CC messages and two different values, but then pressing the same preset will send alternating CC values?  I feel like I have managed this myself but it's not doing what I want on my unit.  It does nothing at all actually.

It's in a section on the Uno manual called "CC toggling".  Any ideas how to pull this off would be great.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 04, 2018, 01:45:49 PM
I'll have a play around. I know you can send multiple cc messages, but I haven't explored all there is to it.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 04, 2018, 02:07:39 PM
thanks man that would be great.

I have my unit set up as I want, however, I think if I could utilize the feature of pressing the preset/patch switch again to act as my control for solo boost/effect on/effect off then that would free up the stomp box switch that I currently have programmed to do this.  So basically I could hit preset 1 to switch to a patch.  Then hit it again to turn an effect on, an another effect off, and also boost the output volume.

Can't seem to crack it though.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on October 05, 2018, 01:20:29 AM
Hey RG, my understanding is when you press a button it sends a number of messages which you can program, I seem to recall Mike saying 5 per switch.  What those 5 are you can program e.g. 1 = patch, 2 = toggle, 3 = CC etc.  Pressing the same switch again will send the same messages again, so if say 2 of the messages are toggle, the 2nd press would reverse the toggle sent in the first press (well not really reverse as it is just a simple toggle message and the result will depend on the parameters state in the unit you are changing), e.g. if chorus was on to start with and delay was off and you sent them both a toggle, the chorus should go off and the delay on, probably send a 1 for on and 0 for off  :dunno: .  CC messages are a little different and you need to consider "latching", once the assigned CC is latched with its target it operates and sometimes (depending on the receiving unit) the target needs to be on to begin so the patch in the unit needs to have the target on (e.g. chorus on, loop in etc, the MB1 is like this) for the latch to work.  Similar with expression pedals, if say you are sweeping unit (not patch) master volume (as I do with MP2), I have to perform an initial sweep that at least equals what the unit is currently set to to get it to latch, after that it controls the parameter.  So each time I turn on my MP2 I have to sweep the pedal once to latch it, so I sweep full up then full off and it's then good to go. But this is MP2, other units may respond differently depending on their age as CC has evolved.I posted some detailed explanations for using CC with the MB1 and MP2 a while ago, they both respond a bit differently.  I had my head around it back then, it's a bit of a mind f@ck at first.  The later MB1 manual (or was it in the later EPROM upgrade notes ?) and the MP2 manual have detailed explanations which I tried to summarise and explain.
To get your Rocktron to play, you will need to send it what it wants to hear (probably a 2 bit binary number 00, 01, 10 or 11  :dunno: depends how it works).
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on October 05, 2018, 01:38:37 AM
Hey Chip, a good start is read the MB1 v2 release notes, the MP2 manual re CC and the posts I did about them http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=1563.0,
http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=1549.0.  That should help (or send you mad LoL) to get started as the concepts will be similar for other units.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 05, 2018, 05:38:16 AM
Hi Richard,

I shall take a screen shot of how I have the test preset programmed and let you have a look.

But basically I feel like I have programmed this correctly.

I have it as follows:

PC1 – 1   All other PC’s are off because I only want one PC a time and in this instance I want PC1 to switch a patch on GX700 that
corresponds to patch number 1.

                                On                        Off               Off                            On
CC’s –    CC1 – Value1  127      Value2    0      CC2 – Value1    0      Value2    127

CC1   Corresponds to Module block on FX unit
CC2   Corresponds to Chorus block on FX unit

Global Options are as follows:
Non Repeat of PC messages - On  – this means hitting the same preset PC will not send it again and interrupt the sound, so I figured this is a better option to have on whilst I’m trying to also utilize the CC toggling, it means pressing the Preset 1 over and over is not actually going to send the PC1 value over and over, but the CC’s will get through.

On my FX unit I have latch mode on for all FX blocks
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 05, 2018, 01:57:21 PM
Hi Mike and Richard, see attached

as far as I can see everything is perfect and yet it still does not do as it say's it should in the manual.

I give up now.  I spent all evening trying to get it sorted thinking there was something I missed and I haven't.  Toggling is enabled and that's all there is too it.  Even in the preferences it's enabled.

Thankfully I can get what I want programming one of the stomp boxes to send two CC's with different values with alternating presses.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 05, 2018, 05:10:15 PM
Ok. This is a functionality that I had not previously thought about. I'm a bit excited now because it opens up quite a few possibilities. I will get this working on mine and then we'll look at yours.   The gmajor2 can do a boost on each patch. I'm going to set it up so that I can hit the button to switch to a patch, hit it again to boost and then hit it again to bring it back down.
Unfortunately, today is a gardening day, so I can't get straight into it.
I'll be back...
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 06, 2018, 02:43:52 AM
 :lol: Yeah Mike see what I mean?  If I/we could get those cc's working using our preset/patch switches it makes for a neat and tidy little option built into a second press of the same preset/patch, and I personally think that would be nice little way to store a boost for solos

switch to change patch, then press again for boost/FX on, then press again to stay on same patch but turn boost/fx off.

As I say I can do that already using on of the stomp box switches but I'd love to utilize this extra functionality.

I don't seem to be able to get CC's to send properly from my patch switch.  The best I can get is a flicker on my GX700 as though it was going to turn fx on but then goes back to how it was.  And it's like every four presses I can achieve that flicker.

Hope you have more luck than me.  I have Uno 1.02 btw.

Watch out for those snakes and spiders you got over there man  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on October 06, 2018, 11:01:23 PM
Hey RG, I wonder if your GX700 has a midi monitor function lke the MP2 has ? when you turn it on you get to see the midi messages in the display for trouble shooting.
There will be lots of eastern brown snakes around as they come out of hibernation and have babies, fortunately it's unusual for us to get funnel web spiders in Canberra which are the thing to watch out for when gardening, particularly further north.  Kangaroos and to some extent wombats are the problem at the moment.  It's been so dry that they are coming into town looking for green grass or going for the food on the side of the roads.  The roos are very unpredictable when you are driving and tend to jump in front of you from out of nowhere.  There are so many dead ones by the road, the crash repair people are the only ones to do well out of it  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 07, 2018, 04:14:12 AM
Hey RG, I wonder if your GX700 has a midi monitor function lke the MP2 has ? when you turn it on you get to see the midi messages in the display for trouble shooting.
I don't think it does man.  I find it weird though that I have one of the stomp boxes programmed the exact same way and yet that works??? (stomp box in case you don't know is just a row of switches on the fcb1010 that are dedicated to turn things on and off and not switch patches)

There will be lots of eastern brown snakes around as they come out of hibernation and have babies, fortunately it's unusual for us to get funnel web spiders in Canberra which are the thing to watch out for when gardening, particularly further north.  Kangaroos and to some extent wombats are the problem at the moment.  It's been so dry that they are coming into town looking for green grass or going for the food on the side of the roads.  The roos are very unpredictable when you are driving and tend to jump in front of you from out of nowhere.  There are so many dead ones by the road, the crash repair people are the only ones to do well out of it  :facepalm:
  Yeah man Austrailia has a lot of interesting and seemingly dangerous wild life.  I see a lot of these on wildlife programmes.  I could not handle the spider thing.  Hate them.  Snakes are cool, but not if I could die from their bite  >:(
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on October 08, 2018, 02:24:40 AM
Hey RG, I remember Mike telling me about the stop box switches, I assume they work similarly to the MXCs Quad switch.  The QS buttons can be set to momentary (work while you hold down the button) and Latched (toggle on off with each press).  This latching BTW is different from the latching I referred to earlier (lets call it midi latching) as in CC controls have to "midi latch" onto their target parameter and in some units they wont "midi latch" unless the parameter is on initially in the program (eg MB1)), this may be why you are getting different results  :dunno:
The wild life are scared of us so you just have to be sensible and not corner them or they will fight back (try to bight you/kick you, hey they're scared).  If they can run away they will.  Funnel web spiders are a bit different, they are aggressive, but again, only if you disturb them.  The eastern brown snakes around Canberra are the 2nd deadliest in the world, but if you got bitten (and it would be your own stupid fault (well mostly)), you are unlikely to die unless you don't follow basic snake bight first aid and/or are too far from help (anti venom).
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 08, 2018, 03:12:14 AM
I'm wondering how Mike has gotten on with his  CC's?



Midi latching?  Jeeez I have not read anything about needing to do this.  Are you saying I might have to enable something on my GX700 then?  Or on the FCB1010?  I've combed through the Uno manual and cannot see what else might need to be programmed on the FCB to enable this CC ing from the preset switches.  It's sending something as I mentioned before, every forth press sometimes more, I see a lick flick on and off quickly on the GX700 as though it were turning an effect on and off.  But it's like a flash.  Holding the switch down also does not turn the effect on either so it's not momentary.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: van Sinn on October 08, 2018, 09:02:48 AM
Never flipped CC values, so no real help to offer.

Don't you have some gear with a MIDI debugger, like the MP2 has it's MIDI monitor?
You need to see what's going on on that MIDI link when flipping the CC's..
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 08, 2018, 01:01:44 PM
I'm wondering how Mike has gotten on with his  CC's?
Nothing yet. I've been focused on learning a couple of new songs. I'll have a look tonight.

(stomp box in case you don't know is just a row of switches on the fcb1010 that are dedicated to turn things on and off and not switch patches)
When the fcb is in stomp-box mode,  it doesn't actually alter the functionality of the buttons. You can still send a program change from a stomp-box button. The difference is that the led on the button stays on so you can see which stomp-box is currently active.  But that doesn't change the problem you are having. I will have a go tonight. Promise!
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 08, 2018, 01:41:35 PM
When the fcb is in stomp-box mode,  it doesn't actually alter the functionality of the buttons. You can still send a program change from a stomp-box button.
Oh I know man, but that is even more reason for the non stomp box switches to send CC's and behave the way the stomp box switch does if it's programmed the same way.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 08, 2018, 09:44:01 PM
Ok then.  My fcb is not in stomp mode.  I tried that once and didn't really use it much.  When I did it was too much like tap dancing and kind of defeated the whole rationale for using midi (in my opinion), so I went back to using the fcb pretty much as it was stock.  However, what I didn't count on was this toggling thing that I can now incorporate into my existing patch structure to make simple changes to an existing patch.  Previously I have talked about using this functionality for boosting a patch. 
The GMajor2 has a preset boost function that I can assign a CC value to, in this case "1".  On the fcb for my main rhythm patch I have set up the toggling to send cc1 as 0 and then 127.  This means that when I first select the patch, the boost is off.  If I press it again, the boost comes on. 
In the picture below, you will see that the first cc is value "80".  This is the tap tempo on the gmajor.  I left it in there but have since realised that it is going to cause chaos.  I don't really tap tempo on that patch anyway, so I'll remove that. 

TL;DR - It works!!

Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 08, 2018, 09:45:09 PM
And so now we have to figure out why yours is not working.  I'll have a think and come back with some ideas.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 08, 2018, 10:08:46 PM
First step would be to run the editor in simulation mode.  If you turn on midi monitoring, you will be able to see whether your fcb is sending what you think it should be sending.  Have a look on page 27 of the editor manual to find out how to do that.

If the fcb is sending what you are expecting then the problem lies in the destination device.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 09, 2018, 03:59:57 AM
Yeah I was using the monitor mode to check it already.  Seems to be doing what I want using that.

May be I have the values the wrong way around, I didn’t factor in the initial press of the patch preset switch and I have my value set to turn on “Mod” (Mod is CC1 and also output boost is CC1) from the first press, where as I should probably have it set to off (value 0) first, so on my second press It comes on whilst turning Chorus off (Chorus is CC2) and then third press will turn Mod off, turn output down, and turn back on Chorus.  I will need to check this.  I have attached a picture of how I have programmed the preset patch a few messages before, have a look at that and see what you think?

I like the stomp box idea myself.  I like being able to turn FX modules on and off.  It’s like “manual mode” on my boss GT5.  I get what you are saying about “tap dancing”  but then I don’t find myself doing that since I have multiple functions programmed into one switch.  And pressing one switch to do three things is not a lot of tap dancing to me.  I really like the FCB1010, it’s actually something Behringer have really got right.  It has to be one of the most useful midi pedals around.  They could do with making a smaller version though lol.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 09, 2018, 01:01:06 PM
The way you have it programmed,  cc1 is on when you first press the button, cc2 is off.
I really like the functionality of the fcb1010.  I just wish it was a little more robust. I've already had to have it repaired because the spring retainer on the buttons is a thin piece of plastic. Half of the buttons have a metal reinforcement, but the rest don't. And yes, it is pretty big.
I started to investigate rehousing it with more of a ground control type box and switches,  but it was going to be very expensive.

So,  it looks like you are going to have to look at how your gx700 is interpreting the messages.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 09, 2018, 04:00:47 PM
I rejigged the CC messages in the opposite order with values swapped.  It didn't fix the issue.  It just tries to turn on CC1 but just flickering more regularly when I swap the values around.

I dunno how my GX700 is interpreting them any other way than what "solo 2" is transmitting which does send CC1 and CC2 to turn things on and off.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 09, 2018, 05:23:57 PM
Hmm.  It's  puzzle alright.
The only thing that I can suggest is to go all scientific on it.  ie. put the values that you have in solo2 into Rock M Width Test.  Then go the other way.  Put the values from RockM Width Test into solo2.
Try another button.  Perhaps button 6 is faulty somehow.   
I would be finding this very frustrating.  I hate it when stuff doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 10, 2018, 05:35:52 AM
I had the values programmed exactly the same until I changed it last night and swapped it the other way around.

I'll try another switch programmed the exact same.

So I noticed in your screen shot you have one CC with the value of 127 in both boxes, I assume this is to keep something switched on?  Why don't you just turn it off completely (assuming that what ever it is, is programmed on you FX unit to be on with that particular patch).  There is also the little boxes at the right hand side within program configuration that you can use to keep things switched on, but this is only in stomp box mode.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 10, 2018, 12:51:14 PM
Got it sorted.  Don't really understand why this fixed the problem, but it did.  Basically in the non stomp box switch (preset switch only for changing patches) you need to enable the stomps in the side menu.

The side menu allows you to switch stomps on as soon as you switch to the certain preset or else have no action at all, or else have them off.

So all mine were previously "off" except the chorus in the stomp menu.  So what I did was set them all to "neither on nor off"  (see screen shot of all the stomps in the bottom right hand corner and all the boxes high lighted blue, not ticked or unticked).

As soon as set them to this in between state the programming for CC's within the preset switch worked as intended (just like how I had Solo1 stomp programmed).  Now I have this extra functionality..............what the hell will I use it for?  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 10, 2018, 12:54:51 PM
So I noticed in your screen shot you have one CC with the value of 127 in both boxes, I assume this is to keep something switched on? 

The way it was before you opened my eyes to the toggling was that I was sending a tap tempo cc with each subsequent press of the button. I decided to to keep it in which meant turning it on with every press. I have since realised that this is just going to cause me problems if I try to use it,  so I'm going to take it out.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: MikeB on October 10, 2018, 01:00:53 PM
We posted at more or less the same time.
Congratulations!  :banana-jazz-smiley-emoticon:

You know,  all of this super-duper functionality can suck you into trying to use it just because it's there.  I fell into that rabbit hole and ended up with something that wasn't right for me,  because I felt like I was wasting the technology if I didn't use it all. Now I have simplified it and just use the bits that I  really want/need to.   Having said that, I am going run with this toggling thing.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 10, 2018, 01:57:33 PM
hahaha to think it was that and I actually considered it as a possible solution days ago but figured it shouldn't be the solution as I'm still turning things on and off with my CC's so why should I have to have the stomps in a neither on or off state?  Weird, but there you go.

I get ya on getting suckered into functionality.  No danger of that with me.  I will see if I still prefer having the separate solo stomp to the new way of doing the same thing but just by pressing the patch switch again and then chose between which I like best.  It's handy to have the options.  I always like to have FX blocks at my disposal even if I rarely use them, I just like knowing I have that level on control.  But practicality, well I usually need an effect going on and one off for solos and a volume boost and I now have two ways of doing this so all is good.  I also have Expression Pedal A dedicated as a volume pedal.  I plan on having patches though that have Expression B used for wah wah.  FCB is a great unit.  I feel full fledged on the midi front now.  Thanks for the help also, good to have people to share these kind of dilemma's with.  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 13, 2018, 11:00:37 AM
So as this thread suggest, it's about development of my rack.  So I have a annoying walwart I would like to keep in the back of the rack the whole time, so here is what I did.  Might not be amazing but I think it will work.

A few holes into the rack case, a couple of cable ties, securing that three prong plug adapter to the case then run the IEC C13 to the furman as usual.  Should keep the power supply in one place, and it will always be plugged in ready to go at shows.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 13, 2018, 11:07:40 AM
another few
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on October 13, 2018, 10:15:37 PM
Hey RG neat way to do it  :thumb-up: , I have a 6 outlet power board velcroed vertically at the back on one side, the velcro is letting go after a few years so I may try similar to secure it to the rack.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rabidgerry on October 14, 2018, 04:09:18 AM
I'm sure I could been more strategic in placement but I only have one other walwart to go in there, and I haven't made up my mind as to whether I'm going to secure it in the same way as well.

I forgot those particular walwart two weeks ago for a gig and it's because I left it behind in the venue from the night before, so I figured trying to keep everything in the case was a good way to go.  I ended up buying a replacement the next day which I was very lucky to get because it's not exactly a common power supply (14v 800ma) and that got me through the gig that night.  I couldn't believe the third music shop I tried had a replacement.  Anyways I have a spare now as I also got the original back from the venue where I had left it.
Title: Re: Rack Development
Post by: rnolan on October 14, 2018, 11:50:49 PM
Definitely the way to go, if it's all secured in the rack, then that's all you have to worry about.  The tricky on in my rack is the Quadverb power supply, it's quite large and I have it velcroed to the bottom/side wedged in between the mixer and the side.  It was all good for many years but the velcro comes unstuck over time (as it's done with the powerboard).You were lucky with that power supply, it's quite an unusual one, and good to have a spare  :thumb-up: