ADA Depot Too - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear

Other ADA Gear => Speakers & Cabs => Topic started by: trader144 on January 08, 2014, 03:44:59 AM

Title: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: trader144 on January 08, 2014, 03:44:59 AM
So since cabinet simulators are a big deal these days, it would be great if someone like MarshallJMP would share some thoughts on what makes the best (including his Monstercab).

I bought the new ADA GCS-3 due to (a) the mic placement feature and (b) price. The Celestion and closed back sounds are really good, and the mic placement is critical....however....you only get one mic so you miss out on the other mic positions that are quite common in a studio. I thought ADA would have seen this and offer dual mics.....

Anyway it is decent as a DI box, still has a little direct clipping to the sound.

Any others?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 08, 2014, 01:22:07 PM
The monstercab doesn't alter the sound of the microcab,the advantage is that you will have a build in power supply and dual 100W loads.This way you can capture the sound of the power amp too.

Another great cabsim is the ampulator,too bad it's so hard to find.Palmer also makes good cabsims.

But,for me personally,nothing can beat a true amp,cab,mic setup.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: trader144 on January 08, 2014, 04:37:22 PM
thank you. there were a few ampulators on ebay recently for $700.

what makes them so good?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on January 08, 2014, 05:14:19 PM
But,for me personally,nothing can beat a true amp,cab,mic setup.
I'm with MJMP here, however, I've made good use of and been very happy with the cab emulated outs on my MP2
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: trader144 on January 08, 2014, 07:18:08 PM
thank you. i agree that the actual speaker cabinet is the best sound.
it is getting harder to justify one on stage as people use DI more and more.

still wondering what qualities separate the best cabinet simulators from the average.
for me the celestion, closed back, 12", and mic placement features are a must have.
but it gets me to 80% of the way there. i can add low end with an EQ and recapture
some of the mic placement miss but it moves closer processed.

someone has to be 90% or more.


are people getting better sims by plugging into a computer?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on January 08, 2014, 07:54:37 PM
People are doing all sorts of stuff with computers but it's all DSP and tone cloning.  While these are valid they still don't sound as good and also PC based DSPs vary markedly (the free DSPs are usually pretty ordinary).  Dedicated outboard gear (effects etc) generally have much wider (sometimes 128bit) back planes and just do what they are there for, also you can mix them in with the analogue signal and not digitise everything.
For me, the more analogue I can keep the sound the better (that said, the gap is narrowing).  The MP2 cab sims give you closed/open back options but no mic placement variances.  I've used the cab sims of my MP2 for the majority of recordings for over 10 years now and they do rather well, no additional eq required and the convenience of recoding in your lounge room.
I've no direct experience with the ampulator but it looks like a good solution if you can get your hands on one.
For recording, the AxeFX seems to be up there, it uses fractal algorithms and a dedicated DSP CPU.  Not so great live according to some.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on January 09, 2014, 08:44:35 AM
Best?  I think it's a matter of taste...

I think the Torpedo Two Notes is about as "realistic" as you can get with a TON of options... however, I personally LOVE the cab sims on my Lexicon MPX-G2 and Rocktron Xpression the "best."  I hated the Palmer PDI-09, but I only used it with a line level from a preamp, never from a tube amp speaker out.  Same with the Behringer unit, the H&K Red boxes... yuck.  I did like the old DMC Voodoo Labs Cab Tone... very similar to the ADA Microcab.

There's so much IR stuff out there now, I just don't like fiddling with it on my computer...
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: Sparker on January 09, 2014, 09:27:53 AM
Are there any "cheap" standalone IR boxes available yet, not PC based?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on January 09, 2014, 12:37:33 PM
Are there any "cheap" standalone IR boxes available yet, not PC based?

Yup... search on ebay for "cabinet emulator" "cabinet simulator" "speaker simulator" or "speaker emulator" and there's all sorts of stuff... right now there are three or more ADA Ampulators, a Microcab, the new ADA box, Palmer units, a couple of Behringers, an old Ibanez Parrot, a bunch of Two Notes rack and box units, an old Groove Tube unit (can't do line level), a couple of Marshall SE100 that I've always been curious about, and a few others like the new H&K... some $80 Micro boxes...

ooops... you meant just IR boxes?  The Two Notes is the only one I know about...
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on January 09, 2014, 01:30:52 PM
thank you. there were a few ampulators on ebay recently for $700.

what makes them so good?

Well it's not just a cab sim but also an amp sim with a real tube in it and alot of dials to finetune the sound.It's my favorite cabsim altough my palmer is also good.

I also have the new ADA GCS-2 lying around (from the other guitar player in the band) and altough not bad i prefer the microcab (monstercab) and the ampulator.

What i usually do is use both micing and cabsims and mixing the sounds,a cabsim usually gives a better bottom end.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on January 09, 2014, 02:14:07 PM
I wish I could go all out and record using a loud amp and mics... but for convenience and at least as a starting point I want to use cab sims to record videos and post them on youtube, so I will start using the Torpedo Two Notes software (but I need to buy a decent interface/sound card first).
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: trader144 on January 09, 2014, 09:00:17 PM
McLeanAB

I listened to some demos online, and the Torpedo sounded the best to me....it could have been the demo but it still sounded like there was some digital clipping.

So....maybe a better idea is to get a cab simulator to get the cabinet sound and address the sound squeeze with some sort of tone shaping effect (for those of us who don't want to fork over $700 for an ampulator).

Any ideas on a tone shaping effects (probably not a standard EQ, but something analog that contains guitar sound shaping attributes like presence, resonance, etc)?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on January 10, 2014, 07:15:43 AM

I listened to some demos online, and the Torpedo sounded the best to me....it could have been the demo but it still sounded like there was some digital clipping.

So....maybe a better idea is to get a cab simulator to get the cabinet sound and address the sound squeeze with some sort of tone shaping effect (for those of us who don't want to fork over $700 for an ampulator).

Any ideas on a tone shaping effects (probably not a standard EQ, but something analog that contains guitar sound shaping attributes like presence, resonance, etc)?

Read up on the Two Notes Torpedo stuff... I believe there are tons of that in the software... even my trial/demo version had EQ and resonance and some other stuff... it's quite detailed.  I hear the Peavey Revalver stuff and the LEPOU POULIN plugins are fairly sophisticated too.

Again, can't say enough about the Rocktron Xpression, Lexicon MPX-G2 cam sims and the Microcab.  They won't give you as much of that "realistic" sound, but to each their own...
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on February 09, 2014, 09:20:44 AM
I don't know about anyone else on here, but having had the Microcab I and II (although I never used the load, it was all preamps in), and now years with the Rocktron Xpression and that being stomped by the cab sims in the Lexicon MPX-G2, I really REALLY want to try out the AMPULATOR... $700 is steep, but...

Anyone on here had/have an Ampulator?  How different from the Microcab does it sound?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on February 11, 2014, 02:06:23 PM
...AND/OR...

Has anyone tried the new ADA GCS-2 or GCS-3 and compared them to the Microcabs?  I know Michael Thompson (who demoed the Carl Martin Chorus in the vid I posted a few days ago) digs the snot out of the new ADA Cabinet Simulators... just curious how they stack up against the old Microcab and how different the Ampulator is to all of the above...

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on February 12, 2014, 10:39:33 PM
I haven't tried either, a friend is talking about getting a GCS3 to run in his MP1 loop (thus maintain stereo without having to buy 2).  Apparently the GCS3 is around $160 AUD and the GCS2 about $140 AUD.  Given the GCS 3 has a couple of additional features it's probably the one to go for.  If they perform anywhere near a good as the MP2 cab outs they will be great  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on February 13, 2014, 04:15:24 AM
I Hope some of the guys here go and test the GCS3 ir GCS2 soon and give reviews. They would be a great simple solution for live playing and recording... and ir the come out with a rack stereo version I know a lot of us will consider it too!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on February 13, 2014, 09:10:30 AM
I Hope some of the guys here go and test the GCS3 ir GCS2 soon and give reviews. They would be a great simple solution for live playing and recording... and ir the come out with a rack stereo version I know a lot of us will consider it too!

I would MUCH prefer a rack version ala the Microcab, but I bit the bullet and got the GCS-2... it has a line/XLR level switch, which is nice.  I'm going to run the effect loop out of my Theta Combo into the GCS-2, then into my Carl Martin XII Chorus, then into the Lexicon MPX-1... a switch or two and I can run heavy gains or cleans...

The Theta Preamp will now only run with the MPX-G2 for direct recording...

I'll let you guys know how it goes!  I'm busy as snot all day tomorrow (when it arrives) but should have a moment or two to hook it up and try it out...

Michael Thompson loves his... he tried out the Torpedo Cab and couldn't get a good sound right out of the box (started a HUGE fight on the Huge Racks Inc forum... ugh) and praised the GCS-2.  If it's anything like the Microcab, it should be great... we shall see!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on February 14, 2014, 01:59:36 PM
I would like to get the GCS-3 so I can run it out of the power amp to get that added tone!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on February 14, 2014, 08:58:56 PM
Well, it's late and I've been pulling 14 hour days, so my brain and body are weary... BUT, the new ADA GCS-2 sounds like a cleaner, slightly tighter version of what my memory is of the lovely old ADA Microcab!

I've only had it for an hour, but I'm comparing it to the Lexicon MPX-G2 simulators and it's easily holding it's own.  It's more "naturally" compressed than the Lexicon's Cab Sims, but those are close to the slightly "flubby" sound that was so great about the Microcab.  It's tighter for sure...

Excellent so far!

More later after I get some sleep!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on February 15, 2014, 07:21:32 AM
I think this deserves a video review!!! O0
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on February 15, 2014, 07:45:30 AM
I think this deserves a video review!!! O0

Ha!  I wish I had the time and resources for that!!!

I just recorded a bit with it, but it's not really a "demo" of the unit, just me noodling around.  It sounds pretty damn good so far.  Comparing it to the Lexicon MPX-G2 cab sims, it's tighter and not as flubby (which is what the Microcab sounded like to me).

I will say that I would recommend it... the Modern mode recorded on one side with the Vintage mode on the other playing the same thing gives it a huge sound in a mix. 

If you need a cabinet simulator, go get it!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on February 15, 2014, 09:32:42 PM
Here!

Love it... fond memories of the Microcab...
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on February 16, 2014, 07:11:53 AM
https://adammclean.bandcamp.com/track/ada-gcs-2-quick-demo

It's not a demo in the traditional sense... just me noodling around and trying out the different modes of the ADA GCS-2.  I have it on 12 inch Sealed Back. The first chunk of the tune is Modern (Celestion Ceramic), then it switches to Vintage (Jenson Alnico), then to Modern. After the key change, it's Modern on one side, Vintage on the other. The lead is Modern piped through the Carl Martin XII for a wide stereo chorus and delays added in Reaper. The Edge/Center knob is dialed all the way to the Edge. The cleans are bypassing the GCS direct out of the Theta Preamp.

It's a quick and dirty experiment, not a demo intended to show all the features. Just to see how it fares with the ISP Theta and some high gain tones.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: lylerasputin on February 17, 2014, 11:47:33 AM
I LOVE my Ada Ampulator…. Have loved it since 1996 or 7 when I got it.  Recently moved,  and had it boxed up for a bit…. The pots are getting scratchy and whatnot…. How would you guys recommend cleaning it?  Also,  is it worth switching out the tube?  I usually use it with a Marshall JMP1 pre going in….
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on February 17, 2014, 02:18:37 PM
Maybe you should consider selling it, those scratchy pots are imposible to fix... I can buy it to help you out  >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on February 17, 2014, 06:02:19 PM
I LOVE my Ada Ampulator…. Have loved it since 1996 or 7 when I got it.  Recently moved,  and had it boxed up for a bit…. The pots are getting scratchy and whatnot…. How would you guys recommend cleaning it?  Also,  is it worth switching out the tube?  I usually use it with a Marshall JMP1 pre going in….
Not that I've seen inside an Ampulator but generally to clean pots use some decent contact cleaner (I use CRC CO contact cleaner), use the small tube that comes with the cleaner and spray into the pot where the contacts attach, there's usually a small gap, and turn the pot full up/down a few times while spraying to clean the tracks inside, also give the sockets a spray to clean their connectors.  It's probably worth changing the tube since it's so old.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on February 19, 2014, 02:08:01 PM
Stay away from CRC contact cleaners,these are the worst cleaners for pots.Get some kontakt 60.Now usually this helps for a while but it will come back as soon the cleaner is dryed up.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: lylerasputin on February 22, 2014, 03:18:34 PM
 Thanks so much for the advice gentleman,  I sincerely appreciate it. 

  What tube would you recommend swapping it out for?  I have opened the box yet (in a rack),  so i forget the OG tube installed…  I cover a variety of tones in my work,  from heavier to clean etc… so need advice on a decent jack of all trades tube,  and perhaps some warnings about ones that ARE NOT good! :)..

  All that said,  I am not an electrical engineer or anything,  but am pretty good at user servicing my stuff,  is opening the box a pain?  and is there anything to be aware of in that process…?  Just want to know if it is worth it before going through the hassle of pulling out of a large rack….

 thanks again for your advice!

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on February 22, 2014, 04:20:13 PM
To swing this back to the GCS-2 (since talk of the Ampulator makes me jealous), here's another fast sample...

ISP Theta Preamp>ADA GCS-2 for rhythms.  ISP Theta Preamp> ADA GCS-2> Carl Martin Chorus XII for leads (in stereo).  Clean guitars have no cabinet emulation on them.  Delays are added in Reaper.

Enjoy!  I am digging this toy!

https://adammclean.bandcamp.com/track/ada-gcs-2-again
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: lylerasputin on March 03, 2014, 01:56:24 PM

bump?

Thanks so much for the advice gentleman,  I sincerely appreciate it. 

  What tube would you recommend swapping it out for?  I have opened the box yet (in a rack),  so i forget the OG tube installed…  I cover a variety of tones in my work,  from heavier to clean etc… so need advice on a decent jack of all trades tube,  and perhaps some warnings about ones that ARE NOT good! :)..

  All that said,  I am not an electrical engineer or anything,  but am pretty good at user servicing my stuff,  is opening the box a pain?  and is there anything to be aware of in that process…?  Just want to know if it is worth it before going through the hassle of pulling out of a large rack….

 thanks again for your advice!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on March 04, 2014, 04:00:26 AM
Hey lylerasputin, I've moved/copied this to it's own topic (http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=293.0)
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: finstah on March 04, 2014, 11:29:03 AM
For recording, the AxeFX seems to be up there, it uses fractal algorithms and a dedicated DSP CPU.  Not so great live according to some.

I use mine to record direct with custom cab sims from Red...something ugh!. A couple of guys on the old Fractal boards (javajunkie) helped me configure it for FOH live. The thing sounds just as tits live as it does direct. The key is knowing what you are editing cuz there are ALOT of parameters for everything. I have never had an issue recording or using it for a show.

'stah

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: shreddingjoris on March 19, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
Just bid on ebay for 50 dollars on a microcab I.
Looks like i can just plug in my monitors in this thing, so no interface needed.
Can't wait to hear this with the MP1!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on March 21, 2014, 09:37:42 AM
Just bid on ebay for 50 dollars on a microcab I.
Looks like i can just plug in my monitors in this thing, so no interface needed.
Can't wait to hear this with the MP1!

I loved my MP-1/Microcab combination... sounded awesome with all the knobs in the "out" position.  Didn't care for the other settings, but to each their own..

Keep us posted!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on March 21, 2014, 03:03:55 PM
Yep the "all buttons out" is also my favorite setting.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: shreddingjoris on March 23, 2014, 02:23:47 PM
Just heard about the ISP STEALTH. Looks like a decent transparant poweramp. Anyone has exp with these?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on March 24, 2014, 10:46:53 AM
Just heard about the ISP STEALTH. Looks like a decent transparant poweramp. Anyone has exp with these?

I don't have the Stealth, but I do have the ISP Theta Preamp (no poweramp) and the ISP Theta Combo which has a great built in power amp... I can only assume the Stealth is a similar design (in concept).  And if it isn't, then I'll vouch for the quality of ISP guitar gear... the Theta Preamp and Combo are two pieces of incredible high quality gear.  I can only imagine the Stealth is of similar quality.  I've yet to hear anything bad about it...

They are about to release a rack version...
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: finstah on March 25, 2014, 08:16:28 AM
+1 on the company.

I had an ISP Decimator and wrote the owner one time to ask about a mod for it. He not only gave me a detailed tutorial of how to do it by calling me personally, he sent the parts for free.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on March 28, 2014, 10:29:21 AM
what did you mod?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on March 28, 2014, 10:01:48 PM
+1 on the company.

I had an ISP Decimator and wrote the owner one time to ask about a mod for it. He not only gave me a detailed tutorial of how to do it by calling me personally, he sent the parts for free.
Now that's service  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: McLeanAB on April 10, 2014, 04:03:15 PM
http://adammclean.bandcamp.com

Here's another one in the making... no leads and no vocals yet, but you get a good idea of the ADA GCS-2 in action.  Cleans, as always, are not using the GCS-2.  Rhythms are all ISP Theta Preamp right into the GCS-2 run direct.  Love it!  Enjoy....
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: trader144 on July 08, 2014, 06:45:55 PM
Depends on how you plan to use it.

I have a GS3.

Wanted it over the GS2 for the powersoak + headphone amp, and price of course.
I don't use the powersoak or headphones as much as I had planned, since I want to mix against a backing track but the headphone amp does help me hear my mp-1 when I want that feature. The main out is pretty weak when I run it through my computer and mix with a backing track (using the stock HP mixer).

The GS-3 is significantly better than the MP-1 straight to the board, but of course nowhere near as good as a real speaker cab.

I would put it at 75% of a real speaker cab at best. The 25% comes from the filters removing some of the articulation.
Feedback/gain is pretty good....not sure how they get it to do this but I am very picky old school and really prefer to feel and react to the sound and air pressure from the speakers.

For reference, I play live through an Iso cab, and would say an Iso cab is 90% vs having the real stack behind you where you control what people hear and the vibrations circuit through your pickups.  The 10% comes from the mixer guys opinions on what it should sound like based on whatever experience they have, and it is probably not the same sound as you want.

So this means if you play live through a simulator, you should expect less than 75% of a real cabinet unless you are also the mixer guy. Things sound very different when you hear yourself on the internet post mix so it is alot of trial and error.

I haven't tried other options...
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on July 09, 2014, 05:25:21 AM
Hey David, have you tried the GCS-3 in the MP1's loop, works a treat and then you have stereo cab simmed outs.  I posted about it in a few other spots, also used the Art split mix to parallel loop my mates TC Gmaj, much better sound than chaining through it keeping MP1 analogue all the way to the I/O and mix in the digital FX.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: trader144 on July 09, 2014, 06:42:15 PM
found the other posts, thanks.
I have heard about doing this from the loop...what makes it different other than stereo?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on July 10, 2014, 01:54:50 AM
Stereo is the main difference, so MP1 is stereo and you can also use stereo effects before the recording I/O.  Also the Art split mix (or equivalent, I use a small mixer with 3 aux sends with my MP2) lets you keep analogue all the way to I/O which sounds distinctly/quite noticeably better with the TC Gmaj (as the first thing the Gmaj does is A/D the input)
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: RobbHell on July 23, 2014, 03:15:44 PM
As much as I rant about Modeling, when I do wanna pull out the MicroCab I will run the ADA Direct to the interface and load a few Impulses of my liking for fast quick Demoing. Nothing Id ever use on the final product. Fractal uses similar methods with their Impulses and I also believe Fractal allows you import Impulses as well.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on July 24, 2014, 06:19:57 AM
Pardon my ignorance, Impulses ? not familiar ?? some sort of effect ?
I've had good results with MP2 cab sims into protools digi001 (but I still use a small analogue desk and mix in the digital effects) for recording, which lets me record at home with no traffic noise etc.
Back in the old days, I used to use a Rockman XL100 with some voltage dividers (resitors) in the output leads to bring the headphone output back to guitar level and plugged it across 2 Marshalls' for a lead sound (very compressed but prefer it to cloning).  I rewired a peavy amp switch pedal to be A/B A+B so I used the Marshall 50 (1972) for rhythm and the Marshall Artist and the 50 for L/R Rockman lead (no master vols on those Marshalls so this was my lead boost).  The I got an MP1 ahhhh, then later my MP2 (even better).
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: RobbHell on July 24, 2014, 10:43:17 AM
Like modeling but not quite....Too make a Impulse you need a Guitar head or Preamp and Cabinet and Mic. Using your computer you send a Sine Wave thru your amp and record the Sine Wave that has been sent through through the amp. The end result is a Impulse. A Impulse is the Altered Sine Wave. So the altered Sine Wave is now an interpret of how the Poweramp,Cabinet and Mic interact to produce the sounds they do.
Now you get any Impulse Loader as a FX plugin. Record direct then load any given combination of Impulses. Hence how Fractal can run a Marshall sounding amp on one side and a Mesa sound on the second channel and now your blending Tones. Youtube or Goggle Guitar Impulses. Impulses allow us to make our own clones and combinations and pull them up to be used for  most given situations.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: RobbHell on July 24, 2014, 11:08:53 AM
A pretty good example is a Guy from Canada made some killer Metal and Metallica and Panteta Impulses for free download. There a youtube video Blackened Guitar Impulse. All digital and is pretty spot on to the original. Check it oit and see what you think. Its pretty damn cool and FREE.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on July 25, 2014, 06:36:18 AM
Hey Rob, thanks, interesting. Ok so you could make ADA rig Impulses then by pumping a sine wave through your rig (what frequency ?).  It's a cool concept but I'm still an old school use a tube kind of guy. So had a listen, not a bad sound, a bit lifeless/clinical though ?? does that make sense (compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIr9nZ4aJfo, I play all the frilly bits and 3rd guit solo, MP1 mixer Quadverb IPS33 smart shift B200 stereo cab mics desk to 2 track DAT), the first guit solo is overdub by bass player singer's mate (was a key board solo (better IMHO)), 2nd solo is a sans amp direct (his preference), squeeze box solo, go Anton, 3rd solo me...  This was recorded live (and no rehearsal) (except the new first guit solo Barry got his mate to play over the keyboard solo..).
Zilthys posted a link to one of my songs (http://crystalcrayon.com/ada/Little_Memory_Extra.mp3 (http://crystalcrayon.com/ada/Little_Memory_Extra.mp3)) this is MP2 mixer Quadverb cab sim outs > desk > protools digi 001
Here's an idea, storing Impulses of your fav sounds/gear gives you a kind of backup for if/when they die.
I agree its pretty good sonically, I'd have to play with it and see how it tracked my energy (that I pump into the guitar), I think that is down side with this technology at the moment, yeah it sounds perfect etc but has less life.  e.g. the thing I loved about the Mullard new sensor reissue tubes is how 3d they are, I change the presure on my left hand (so slightly) and it tracks it beautifully. Recommended BTW.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: RobbHell on July 25, 2014, 09:20:49 AM
I.agree it does lack a bit of Life. Whats interesting is the sound of your fingers sliding across the ridges of strings gets lost as well. Also check Lou Poulin amps.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: RobbHell on July 25, 2014, 09:29:28 AM
Right On! That's the Classic ADA that got me hooked in the beginning.Awesome job.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on July 26, 2014, 02:36:48 AM
Thanks  ::) I got to play the first MP1 in Australia (I was doing guit repairs for the importer pro audio at the time). Owner (Nunzio) said try this out, sound 1, Marshall, blown away, and I can have 128 of them at different volumes/tones, got to get me one, the start of a long friendship with ADA gear.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: dudleydorightdad on September 18, 2014, 03:05:48 AM
  My ADA gear is an MP-1 and a Micro Cab that I have set for a portable recording lightweight rig but live I use a Boogie MKII-C+Simul and either a single evm12L in an open back cab with another in a closed back cab or a 4-12 with boogies black shadows open and celestions closed back. I have tried, experimented, fiddled, listened and listened again through my Tannoy main mons and Sony MDRV6 and MDR7506 phones and other than standing in proximity to a mechanical reproduction(IE a speaker is actually an electric motor of sorts reacting and responding to the electromotive force being generated and then being further enhanced by the effect it has upon the way the strings vibrate which I do not think, to my brain will never equal a motor moving air(spkr) reacting with the axe and pickups and taking into account things like the Fletcher Munson curve and various other anomalies of physics and the room to feel like a cab, 57, just loud enough to let things settle in the sweet spot. All we can hope for is sort of. My pop was an electrical engineer and thought I was insane in 79 buying my first boogie and in his defense design world made the statement that he could do anything with a transistor I could do with a tube. A long running casm, until one day in the late 90's or so he flopped down one of his trade rags explaining why guitar players and audiophiles still used the disappearing tubes. Is it real or is it sort of real. Want a steak, what, fry ground turkey, not that way for this dinosaur. 8)  (also prefer my 201 echo and rack mxr flanger doublers {1 set flange 1 set double})
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on September 18, 2014, 05:30:22 AM
I use the MP2 cab sim outs for recording and have always got great results (Truths with sub and also QUAD Fred ESL63s (man talk about articulate mids from the Freds  :thumb-up: )).  My dad was a mining engineer and also audiophile, so our stereo back then was QUAD 22 tube preamp and 2 x 20w Mullard tube power amps.
I'm happy to use transistor stuff for some tasks (e.g. PA poweramps) and I've used an ADA B200s most of the time I've had ADA MP1/2, unfortunately my B200s needs some work so now I use a Carvin TS100 all tube power amp (love it, but I also love the B200s).  Preamp though, I want/like/prefer tubes, more particularly MP1/2.  I've still not heard anything that works for me like the MP preamps.
Does your boogie have a poweramp in jack ? if so you could try your MP1 into it ?  I think Dante is running one of his MP2 rigs into a boogie combo for stage.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: finstah on October 09, 2014, 10:02:52 AM
what did you mod?

older Decimator's would leave artifacts before cutting the signal. Buck sent out a new resistor to fix the problem.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: trader144 on December 13, 2014, 10:50:48 AM
For my GCS-3 I just started going out from my microtube into the GCS-3 and it sounds much better and I like it a lot more as it doesn't kill some of the character.
 Before I was going direct from the mp-1 and it was ok but not great.

I guess the cab sim is only as good as the input signal.


Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on December 14, 2014, 03:48:06 AM
That may be because the charter the microtube added to the patch was part of the patch (if that makes sense).  You may get just as good results with GCS-3 in MP1 loop > direct record but have to tweak the patch a bit (to un-microtube it) ? Just a thought....
(I guess the cab sim is only as good as the input signal) applies to everything, your fingers being the first (and most important) input LOL
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: trader144 on December 14, 2014, 09:24:35 PM
Yes, adding the microtube made a huge improvement to sound quality through the GCS-3 headphones.

I am trying it by exiting via the FX loop instead of output A, which is basically removing the output op amp from the signal chain.
It is very good...although I am not sure which I like better yet.
There is a different character when I hook up things to the Output A of the MP-1 rather than exiting out the FX loop.

It may be just me but playing through headphones is a poor (but sometimes necessary) substitute for live through a cranked celestion split stack.
Cab simulators are simply filters....and it is so easy to filter out the definition.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on December 15, 2014, 03:35:35 AM
In my experience, head phones have their place, good for overdubbing in studio (particularly vocals), and interesting cross reference for mixing (more so these days with the way everyone is using crappy ear buds and smart phones), but they were always a good cross reference, (not to mention not annoying anyone  >:D ).
Best set up with MP1 (which MikeB and I have prototyped to good end) is to use GCS-3 in MP1 loop, program loop when you want to include it, then MP1 outs in stereo are cab simmed, we used ART split mix to mix in digital (TC GMaj) in parallel to rec ins/or B200s with loop out, or into my studio monitors when he's here.
In the end there is no substitute IMHO for playing loud and live, not always easy though I know LOL
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on December 16, 2014, 01:41:15 AM
Stay away from CRC contact cleaners,these are the worst cleaners for pots.Get some kontakt 60.Now usually this helps for a while but it will come back as soon the cleaner is dryed up.

I have never had any issues using CRC's servisol super 10.  What's so bad about them?

I've used this stuff on pots well past their sell by date and always worked a treat.  Same thing happens that you describe with the Kontakt 60 though, it dries up eventually.


On another note, has anyone seen or heard or read about or used this?

http://amtelectronics.com/products/fx-pedals/amt-electronics-chameleon-cab-cn-1-speaker-cabinet-emulator/ (http://amtelectronics.com/products/fx-pedals/amt-electronics-chameleon-cab-cn-1-speaker-cabinet-emulator/)

There is a video on youtube with some australian guy doin a review.  Sounds ok, but wondered what you fellas thought?

ALSO

What is the main diff between Microcab 1 and 2?

I have a few analogue speaker sims, including a Condor speaker sim kit that I have yet to build lol  Anyone ever used the condor?

http://www.runoffgroove.com/condor.html (http://www.runoffgroove.com/condor.html)
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on December 16, 2014, 04:31:23 AM
I get a blank page from condor.
I remember someone mentioned the Chameleon (here I think, try a search). I like the name but haven't played with one.
I'll leave MC 1/2 to others, One of (the many) reasons I wanted MP2 when it came out as the sims are built in and work great, so I've been happy there.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on December 16, 2014, 07:12:55 AM
no way the condor link works for me.  Your browser must be a wanker lol

http://diy.thcustom.com/rog-condor-cabinet-simulation-diy-v1-0/
 (http://diy.thcustom.com/rog-condor-cabinet-simulation-diy-v1-0/)
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on December 16, 2014, 07:32:41 AM
Ok got it now (my browser must have come LOL).. looks interesting, best build it an tell us how it goes !!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on December 16, 2014, 09:33:54 AM
 :lol:

Ok got it now (my browser must have come LOL).. looks interesting, best build it an tell us how it goes !!

I like that you can swear on this board, it's refreshing lol

wanker browsers eh?  fuckers!!  :nono:
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on December 17, 2014, 08:15:26 AM
Well so far we like to keep it clean(ish) so swearing gets other symbols e.g. f#$k, LOL
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: Casey_Butt on December 19, 2014, 06:33:08 PM
What is the main diff between Microcab 1 and 2?

They reconfigured the input circuit on the MicroCab II so you can plug speaker level (power amp) inputs into it.  With the MicroCab I you can only use preamp level inputs.  The components in both units are actually the same, they just rearranged the input so the level pot and limiting diodes are in a different order in the MicroCab II, allowing you to turn the input level down low enough to deal with speaker level signals.  If you`re handy with electronics you can turn a MicroCab I into a II by cutting a few traces and using a couple of jumper wires.

Other than that, they`re essentially identical.  They sound the same.

If you`re not handy with electronics or not into modding, then the MicroCab II allows you to plug your power amp output directly into it, the MicroCab I is either limited to preamp level signals or you can use a direct box between your power amp and MicroCab I input.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on December 20, 2014, 04:13:48 AM
Hey Casey, good tips Thanks  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on December 22, 2014, 05:30:46 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I got one of these the other day and I am astounded!!!  I feel like I am set for DI recording for life!!

The Logidy EPSI!!

http://www.logidy.com/?pid=1 (http://www.logidy.com/?pid=1)

A more affordable Torpedo Two notes!!! (way more affordable)

this thing is the shit!!!  I think it's an amazing cab sim.  Works of Impulse responses.  Not sure if that is the same as the two notes.  I have the stock ones so far and I haven't even checked them all out because I've encountered so many good ones within the first 25 cabs!!!

So happy about this unit!!  I have redwirez cab suite now also, dunno if I will ever get around to checking them out though, not enough time in the day!!!
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: idouglascs on February 10, 2016, 11:35:29 AM
Digitech GSP1101 with C63 Firmware also can use IR for Cab Sim.

It can store up to 10 user cabinets and process any input thru Impulse Responses.

It's not as advanced as Torpedo or Logidy because it has a IR sample length limit, but is still great and it's also a Preamp and Effects unit.

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on February 10, 2016, 03:33:14 PM
BTW anyone here using the two notes wos III plugin?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: van Sinn on February 13, 2016, 08:45:49 AM
I think the Torpedo Two Notes is about as "realistic" as you can get with a TON of options... however, I personally LOVE the cab sims on my Lexicon MPX-G2

Yup, will be difficult to obtain a better IR-based sound than with the Torpedo's.
Note that the Torpedo CAD is much more than just a cab sim; it features separately selectable emulation for amps, cabs and mics.
Amps aren't amp models, but rather four different tubes in triode or pentode couplings, gain, sag et al.
Cab IR's can be installed, mic selections are fixed, but with adjustable distance, angle.

Didn't know you have an MPX G2..  I also dig it's analog cab sims. Only a few seems a bit too bright, but that's the graphics EQ are there for ;)
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on February 15, 2016, 06:20:00 AM
I think the Torpedo Two Notes is about as "realistic" as you can get with a TON of options... however, I personally LOVE the cab sims on my Lexicon MPX-G2

Yup, will be difficult to obtain a better IR-based sound than with the Torpedo's.
Note that the Torpedo CAD is much more than just a cab sim; it features separately selectable emulation for amps, cabs and mics.
Amps aren't amp models, but rather four different tubes in triode or pentode couplings, gain, sag et al.
Cab IR's can be installed, mic selections are fixed, but with adjustable distance, angle.

Didn't know you have an MPX G2..  I also dig it's analog cab sims. Only a few seems a bit too bright, but that's the graphics EQ are there for ;)

Sorry the Torpedo is only as good as the impulse fed into it.  And besides it's not stereo.  I said it before and I'll say it again.

http://www.logidy.com/?pid=1 (http://www.logidy.com/?pid=1)

Save a couple of hundred with a EPSI and then use the best impulses available such as

http://www.redwirez.com/ (http://www.redwirez.com/)

EPSI is a impulse reader built in the shape of a stomp box, and allows stereo in and stereo out.  I'd never have bothered buying a device like this had they not been half the price of the torpedo, I'm so glad I did.  I might be another before these guys go out of business due to lack of interest.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on February 15, 2016, 07:32:21 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I got one of these the other day and I am astounded!!!  I feel like I am set for DI recording for life!!

The Logidy EPSI!!

http://www.logidy.com/?pid=1 (http://www.logidy.com/?pid=1)

A more affordable Torpedo Two notes!!! (way more affordable)

this thing is the shit!!!  I think it's an amazing cab sim.  Works of Impulse responses.  Not sure if that is the same as the two notes.  I have the stock ones so far and I haven't even checked them all out because I've encountered so many good ones within the first 25 cabs!!!

So happy about this unit!!  I have redwirez cab suite now also, dunno if I will ever get around to checking them out though, not enough time in the day!!!

I remember reading about this when this came out and forgot about it. Now I would really think of getting one if I cando my own IR of the speakers I use. I use Scumback H75-LD-8-65w speakers and this speakers are part of the total sound that makes my rig.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on February 15, 2016, 04:01:47 PM
Well i'm looking for a plugin cab sim,Two notes has it and also redwirez.Any comments which i should get?
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on February 15, 2016, 06:22:13 PM
Radbidgerry correct me if Im wrong but to answer the question of Marshall I would say this:

- Two Notes ($495): lets you use use multiple IRs at the same time and lets you have a bit more manipulation on your overal sound (poweramp simulation, etc)

- ESPi ($125 + $9 per IR or $125 for 49 IRs + $49 for pluggin software): one IR at a time and fix options to customize your sound... Question: do you use this software to mix multiple mics settings in to one IR and use it in the ESPi unit?

Pros:
If this is true maybe the ESPi is well worth but not sure how you combine the options of speaker/cab, mic, position, etc in to one IR that you save in the memory card.

Cons:
The ONLY thing that the Two Notes makes a real difference to me over the ESPi is that it has MIDI connection so you can change your cab simulations with different patches of your rig connections.

Wishlist:
I would just preffer if the ESPi  had a built in memory so you coulds store IRs straight in to it and use the memory card just to add aditional ones or be a quick way to test IRs of other people.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on February 16, 2016, 02:54:35 AM
El it can take home made impulses.  They just have to be the correct format.  I think 44.1khz sample rate and 24bit is the maximum.  You can make your own impulses if you have the software etc and ability to send a sine wav through your rig etc.

Radbidgerry correct me if Im wrong but to answer the question of Marshall I would say this:

- Two Notes ($495): lets you use use multiple IRs at the same time and lets you have a bit more manipulation on your overal sound (poweramp simulation, etc)

- ESPi ($125 + $9 per IR or $125 for 49 IRs + $49 for pluggin software): one IR at a time and fix options to customize your sound... Question: do you use this software to mix multiple mics settings in to one IR and use it in the ESPi unit?

How do I answer this?

First of all let me address the two notes.  Personally I have no need for the extra functionality it has and sure that makes it great but honestly simplicity of the EPSI for me is the winner.  So everytime I will save myself some money and buy an EPSI if I was starting from scratch.  I don't actually know why I would want two impulses at a time, I would record one, then record another if I wanted to hear two types together.  May be I'm old fashioned but one take and one sound at a time is best for me.  It never seems to work out trying to get more than one sound that blends perfectly at the same time.  I believe mixing should be done elsewhere and good old trial and error to find out what make the best combos is the most effective way.  Sure I could make an IR that combined two good impulses that sounded great together, but I would rather record one take using one IR, then another take using the other IR, sounds best for me.

Ok to actual question El, I have made my own impulses? actually sorry I'll say that correctly, spliced my own impulses together using two different kinds of IR in a DAW programme such as one with the mic in one place one with the mic type different and different distance etc.  Yes I have and it worked fine after a bit of jigging about.

However, I quit all this f**king about because I realised it's nit picking and you spend hours and hours wasting time doing all this stuff and forget about playing and recording the actual songs properly.  It's two distracting.  The red wirez suite I got (I'll not say how I got it........for free) has so many options it's just insane.  I never got through probably 2/3rds of the impulses as there is so many.

For me I found a few I liked and stuck with them.  I use it like I use my live rig, so the same few cabs over and over, not constantly changing shit around.

If you want more distracting options to sit and pay with for hours on end go with the Two notes.
If you want to turn your rig on, and go through a selected IR - hit record - get a good take - then move onto the next take - and may be use a different impulse so as you can mix later in DAW, then EPSI is what you want.

EPSI has an EQ on it to adjust the IR's futher which is useful and you know what?  It's pointless if you have a billions IR's to choose from like in RedWirez, because you can just pick a different impulse with the mic a little close or further away or in different position.  Why bother with the extra EQing when you could twist the dial and be on a new different umpulse in a matter of seconds?

Ok I'll will admit the biggest con for the EPSI is not display that tells you what impulse you are on!!!!!!

You know what?  I can live without that, why?  Because I just flick through and use my ears until I get the right one.  I basically use the EPSI as a substitute for my FX units onboard speaker sims.  I very rarely adjust it now I've found IR's I like.  I should really delete off those I don't use so I can flick to the ones I like a lot quicker.


It's depends on what you want to do with your time, spend hours messing about, or plug in, pick an impulse you like and play and hit record!!!

Epsi is also awesome to play live without cabs!  I nearly thought about taking it on tour with me!  As it's just a little pedal! 

But I confess, nothing like a wall of cabs behind you making your intestines shake!!!!!     :metal:  However if I was pushed I would take it on tour.


PLEASE NOTE: I have the redwirez.  If you guys need it...........................PM me  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on February 16, 2016, 04:38:38 AM
I don't actually know why I would want two impulses at a time, I would record one, then record another if I wanted to hear two types together.  May be I'm old fashioned but one take and one sound at a time is best for me.

Well all I'm saying is that some people use different mics on a recording (either by recording at the same time or at diferent times) and if you did that on the recording maybe you want to recreat it live too... so that would be the reason why I would see the use of two types together. Also the beauty of saving stuff in to presets is that once you set it up correctly you just have to open that preset and you will have the sound you wanted. Anyway its not for everyone but some people might use it.

For me I don't really need the screen to see what I'm using since probably I would only use a couple of different ones and that I could easily remember what number they are on. What bothers me more is that there isnt a MIDI conection to have let you change those sounds at the same time you change your entire presets of you rig in a LIVE situation.

Still I would probably use one if I was doing home recordings or playing live more often.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on February 16, 2016, 07:24:25 AM
Oh I get what you mean for sure  :thumb-up:, I just wouldn't do that.  I prefer the layering approach.  I have not had much success to be honest mixing and matching different IRs to sound like two different speakers or mics or mic postions and I don't have the time to sit and play about with the stuff for ever.  Songs don't write themselves  :facepalm:.

Well if you where to use it live and you really needed to switch cabs sims the absence of midi I guess would be a bummer.  But then I don't think in the live world it is common for anyone to do this either with actual cabs so it's no loss to me.  The flexibility of having it at the end of your chain and hooking up to the desk at a gig is still very much real.  I'm sure some person somewhere likes to switch cabs mid set but for the vast majority of people one cab and one mic position per show usually is the case.

I only use mine for recording so I don't really think of it's live potential, it just sets there, ready to go, no hassles no fuss, turn it on and away I go.  For the price compared to the Two Notes it's a bargain.

El I may have imagined this, but you have the Two Notes right?

What surprises me is the EPSI has not done as well well as it perhaps should have. I mean it's a much cheaper alternative and equally effective.  They'll probably quit them in a couple of years.  Shame as a Mark II might have been nice.

I got mine second hand of a polish guy who dare I say didn't really use it to it's full potential.  So I got mine even cheaper than what they are (about £50 less    :lol:)

It changed the way I record and the quality.  The danger of getting lost in IR hell exists though and is very real!  I had to stop looking through them all and splicing two IR's together like DR Frankenstein hahahhahaa!

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on February 16, 2016, 09:42:44 AM
Jaja no I dont have the Two Notes unit, I do have their pluggin software and bought 1 additional cab to try it out once. It was cool but I havent used it again becaus I want to actually have a sound that I can replicate like LIVE instead of having an EXCELENT tone in a recording and then sounding like shit because the rig used in the recording is not what I'm playing live. So I focused on buying better gear and improving my "live" sound even tho I dont play live that often.

PS:
There is a need for people to change cabs in a live situation, if there wherent then you wouldnt have products like this http://www.tonebone.com/cabbone.php (http://www.tonebone.com/cabbone.php). Also the other way to do it is to have different amps and cabinets all set up on the stage and change thru them... I'm sure you've seen people with multiple different amps and cabinets on stage no?

Check out Aerosmith live rig http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Rig_Rundown_Aerosmiths_Joe_Perry_and_Brad_Whitford (http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Rig_Rundown_Aerosmiths_Joe_Perry_and_Brad_Whitford)

(http://www.premierguitar.com/ext/resources/images/content/2014-10/FEAT/Aerosmith/JoePerryAmps_WEB.jpg)
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on February 16, 2016, 04:16:00 PM


PS:
There is a need for people to change cabs in a live situation, if there wherent then you wouldnt have products like this http://www.tonebone.com/cabbone.php (http://www.tonebone.com/cabbone.php). Also the other way to do it is to have different amps and cabinets all set up on the stage and change thru them... I'm sure you've seen people with multiple different amps and cabinets on stage no?


Oh yeah, Tonebone man like that is A MASSIVLEY used product.  You're joking right?

How many bands have you ever watched change cabs per show?  You're just looking to validate your point about the two notes capability.  And that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, so because they make a product that can do this (which is nice if you really need it) you're saying to me that it's the regular done thing or at least implying it is?  No way mate.  Some people might do this but it's not common to do it.

Put it this way, have you ever saw your beloved Iron Maiden switch cabs in a show? Well I sure as hell haven't and no live shows I watched of them did they ever switch cabs.  Amps yes, in the early days though, same amp whole show.

I've saw more than one amp on stage and preamps and pedals but I've never ever saw anyone switch to an alternative cab during a show.  I've played with many big bands and I've yet to see one change to another cab during a song.  Not even an acoustic amp!  When I see one switch cabs, I'll tell you about it.

And at the level I play it, no one does it because it's overkill and not practical. 

Does your band switch cabs all over the shop mid set? :???:

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on February 17, 2016, 05:15:05 AM
Me personally i would never use a cabsim live,i never had problems with getting a good live sound with my amps and cabs.
But it is very interesting to use for recordings,so i'm only after software plugins,no hardware needed.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 07, 2016, 01:44:38 AM
No nor do I have issues with using real cabs

however getting on a plane with 4 guitar cabinets is an issue, getting on a plane with a stomp box is not.  So what I'm saying is that it would be a viable alternative without any shortcomings.  This is why I would consider it not because I have problems with real cabs. 

But then all my backline will be provided at the gigs I'm playing this year in Europe although I would really consider this or certainly always have it as another possibility.

If you would use it (a cabism) for recording but would never do so live is almost contradictory is it not?  Imagine you could just turn up to a gig without guitar cabs, it would be amazingly convenient.  Just my thoughts on the matter.

Superficially I like the idea of cabs behind me though  ^-^  buts that’s down to the image I have imprinted in my mind of bands with wall of cabs behind them,  I can't erase that.



Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on March 07, 2016, 05:59:06 AM
A few including Dante went down this route combined with in ear monitors. I play regularly through my studio setup using the MP2 cab sims (as does Mike with his MP1 and GCS3), it works fine, and I've done it through a small PA in a bookshop cafe.... I've not doe it at volume but there's no reason it wouldn't work fine.  But there are 2 aspects that come to mind, it does sound different through amp/cabs (and I like being surrounded by it  >:D ) and the way the guitar interacts with the volume etc, the other is adequate monitors, I wouldn't use the in ear, I like to be surrounded by it. While decent monitors are possible, the guitarist is usually last on the list...  IIRC Dante also found that he needed an amp to have some stage sound for the people up front.
So it's really going to depend on the gig IMO, you could go out with a 2RU setup (MP2 and MultiFX in its loop & midi pedal), nice and compact, add poweramp and cabs as required or go direct with cab sims if the monitors are up to it. But I'm tailoring this to your needs RG coz you fly to lots of gigs, personally, I'd rather take poweramp and cabs of my own choosing, but they have to get there (and back)
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 07, 2016, 07:21:41 AM
OK Richard I hear ya.

You've assumed a few things here though from what I would I have said.  To begin, I am not thinking about doing this.  But the main thing you mention is the in ear monitors.  If I was going to do this I would not use in ear monitors.  I would use a few powered stage monitors.

One time I nearly considered going FRFR.  For this I was going to buy 4x powered stage monitors.  So if I was personally going to try this I would have monitors to give me my sound.  I pretty much did go half FRFR, by using amp modeler but with real cabs.  And now I've replaced the amp modeler with external pres hence arriving at this depot.

If I was going to try this abroad so as I had no need to take any form of speaker with me I would also rely on the in house monitors at the venus we are playing.

Two compare the old cab sims of MP2 or even the GCS3 to the impulse cab sims is a little bit unfair in my opinion.  These units to me are light years in the past when it comes to how real the impulse cab sims are.  So if you think those analogue sims sound good (and I don't doubt this) then you'd only be even more convinced by a Two Notes Torpedo or by the EPSI unit I use.  I mean I could have any cab any speaker any mic postion I desired in an impulse.  It's insane the possibilities.

But there you go I'm not going to do it just yet.  I'll wait till I can no longer carry my back line.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on March 07, 2016, 08:46:48 AM
Hey RG, I love the sound of the MP2 cab sim and Mikes MP1 GCS3 sim into studio monitors. If I could replicate that live, I wouldn't be unhappy (and with decent PA gear I could)). From what you say there are even better options available cab sim wise (I hear you), in the end it comes down to the PA and monitors (or in ear monitors) for how it will sound for you.
My fav mix was doing a Yass Bachelor and Spinster gig (lots of bands, drinks are free after entry...). Anyway the Monitor guy is a mate of mine, we're on the back of 2 semis, I get stereo monitors (each 2 x 15 & horn) and side fill, and what's more important 40 mins + to tune it.  So I've got stereo guitar behind me from my cabs and stereo monitors (incl guit in front), and side fills (more guitar). Melt me...

In the end though, nothing quite like cranking up some cabs... >:D
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on March 07, 2016, 11:35:31 AM
Well i like to use both analog cabsims mixed with the two notes plugin.But they just can't replace real cabs.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 08, 2016, 12:39:52 AM
Ok that's fair enough, but how can they not replace them when you are willing to use them on a recording............in place of them?

I personally think they could, sorry not replace them but substitute (is a better word) them in the situations I have mentioned above.  They could not replace them because without them there would be no impulses to begin with.

I've used a lot of analogue speaker sims in my time, and while some were good and totally usable none sounded anything remotely close to the mic'd speakers sound of impulse sounds.  Nowhere remotely close.  Basically analogue versions are a lot of EQing and how I would say "2d"  whereas impulse files for me feel more "3d" if that makes sense.

On a record I'm sure like you MJMP you could mix both, and hell people (like Judas Priest) have mixed direct signal (no speaker EQ cabs  or anything to tame harshness) to good effect with mic's sounds blended alongside so I can see a use for them if you really wanted to.

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on March 08, 2016, 12:48:09 AM
Given the choice, I'd still use cabs in the studio and go to the same trouble as drums to mic them up. But then you need a studio with enough space etc, not so easy at home.
In the end it's whatever makes the sound you want. And mix and match is one way to go.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 08, 2016, 01:15:11 AM
I would only use a mic and a cab if I had a studio to begin with, and a controlled enviroment in which I could record perfectly and a slave to move the mic about for me.

I'm not going to get into which is better quality because it will turn out like the tape vs digital arguement.  But all I can say is I'm not sure if I had both in front of me what I would choose.  It would be a toss up between manually moving a mic and recording vs the twist of one knob to get any speaker with any mic in any position I wanted.

And for the record I'm not saying anyones way is the right or wrong way.  All I'm saying is I think using an impulse is the method I prefer because it sounds amazing and it's ridiculously conveniant and I see no reason to ever return to trying to records using a mic on a guitar cab.

For live recordings, I mic up my live rig.  This is entirely different approach and style of recording I aim for when I do this.  I would probably not record for our album using my actual cabs. Might do if I had a studio, but I never will have a studio, well not a proper one.  I have a room in my house I call a studio, the EPSI goes well in this room  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on March 08, 2016, 01:19:23 AM
Totally understand  :thumb-up: I like to make the impulses for you to use, I've never had a chance to try them but they seem a very good idea.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 08, 2016, 01:49:05 AM
It's actually an amazing thing, I mean send a sine wav through a rig and get its "Flavour"?

f**king hell yeah!

If you ever do make an impulse for me I'll try it and let you hear what I sound like going through it.

I have nearly considered making my own, I will get round to it some time.  I have the software for it.

I'm not finished getting speakers for my cabs though.  They are so expensive it's taking me a while to afford another two Eminence CV-75's.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on March 08, 2016, 02:24:39 AM
Can you send me the software for it ?, I could do MP2 for you.
I know what you mean re speakers, I reconed 2 blown up EV 15s a few years ago, $400 each Ouch, apparently I got the last 2 recone kits in Aus (and postage kills you on speakers as they weigh so much).
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 08, 2016, 08:08:56 AM
this is it

https://www.voxengo.com/product/deconvolver/ (https://www.voxengo.com/product/deconvolver/)

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: El Chiguete on March 08, 2016, 09:08:41 AM
If I could use a IR to add my poweramp, my speakers and my mic "flavor" then I would have no problem to go out the PA System with just my preamp and effects rig.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 08, 2016, 11:16:20 AM
If I could use a IR to add my poweramp, my speakers and my mic "flavor" then I would have no problem to go out the PA System with just my preamp and effects rig.

You could El  :thumb-up:  if you have the capability try it.

I think I have now be inspired to try and make one myself.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on March 08, 2016, 12:45:44 PM
I think it's very difficult to capture a "sound".Don't forget you just taking 1 point.Amps speakers and mics are usually not linear so you will be missing like 100 other points.It will sound different at lower and higher volumes,it will sound different when you play with a lot of dynamics etc....

I've been playing around with a lot of plugins lately,my last one was positive grid.Now it sounds not bad when you're playing around with it but if i go back to my "real" rig then it's WTF,the real deal sounds a lot better every time.It's nice for recording maybe since you will do a lot of processing but live i would never use it.My 2 cents.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 09, 2016, 12:38:44 AM
I think it's very difficult to capture a "sound".Don't forget you just taking 1 point.Amps speakers and mics are usually not linear so you will be missing like 100 other points.It will sound different at lower and higher volumes,it will sound different when you play with a lot of dynamics etc....

I've been playing around with a lot of plugins lately,my last one was positive grid.Now it sounds not bad when you're playing around with it but if i go back to my "real" rig then it's WTF,the real deal sounds a lot better every time.It's nice for recording maybe since you will do a lot of processing but live i would never use it.My 2 cents.

It doesn't seem that hard from what I have read.  I'll give it a go and let you know.  Are going to try it Richard?  I imagine if you are only after the speaker sim in your MP2 then you will need to send a sign WAV through the input with all other effects off, and basically only the speaker sim engaged.

I can't comment on your experiences MJ but I find the sounds I have with my IR device sound great with nothing done to them.  Best sounds I have ever got.  The processing I used while making the bands single for example was minimal and was purely to get it to fit in the mix.  I used IR's on that project.  But is this not a normal thing to do?  It seems to be otherwise all the information I have read about mixing music is wrong.  So for example I stripped a lot of lo end off and hi end with Hi and Lo pass filters.  Had I recorded my speakers for real I'd have done the same thing.  In fact I may have done more to the real mic and speakers recording because I can't adjust as easily as I can with speaker IR where I can surf through hundreds of speakers and mic positions if I want to.

Yes I can see that if you made a speaker impulse you would get different results at different volumes.  Not sure I understand what you mean about the 1 point but missing 100 other points.

The way I see it is, set the volume to a volume you normally play at, send the sine wav through your rig exactly as it is when you normally play and record.  Make a few recordings with the mic moved and a few other variations if you want to and then create the IR's.  If the commercial IR's I use only take 1 point then I'm very happy with those one point IR's.  End of the day it sounds like I'm playing through speakers to me and that's all I want to hear.

I'll record my live rig at my normal at the weekend and see if my results equal my impulses.  Live righ sounding good these days but I think the IR's sound more "pro".  I use these mic's ES-57 on the guitar cabs http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/37-206.html (http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/37-206.html)

and before anyone thinks "he's using a cheapo rip off SM57" do your research on the mic.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on March 09, 2016, 04:32:30 AM
Well different points i mean a mic or cab will sound different at different volume levels.Even if you put the wave through it at your usual level there will be no dynamics involved since it's a freq sweep at the same level.Pff hard to explain what i mean i guess.Hope you understand. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 11, 2016, 02:12:22 AM
sort off understand.  How do they make commercial impulses then do you know?

Essentially I view cab sim speaker sim as a filter, to filter out crap and shape the sound to my pallete.

Will still post some of my real speakers sound after I rehearse on Saturday just for the hell off it.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on March 11, 2016, 03:57:58 AM
I think they use different points since with two notes you can move the mic around so you get different sounds.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 11, 2016, 07:09:49 AM
Move the mic around?  Sounds like an algorithym in what ever software it if you're using to me as opposed to one impulse that contains various points, I'm pretty sure impulses are made up of single points as opposed to multiple and that works fine from my experience as no one moves my mic about at gigs.

If I want a different mic sound I pic say the IR of celestion GT75 - sm75 centre 2 inches from grill or pic celestion GT75 - sm75 centre 3 inches

I don't have impulses made up of multiples impulses, this seems like an odd concept to me.  I'm pretty sure it's impossible actually unless you brough IR's into a daw and over lapped them but I have no idea why you would do this.  I know red wirez impulses are all individual impulses and any other IR i have used is the same, they contain one set of information for what the tone will be like at that moment.

Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on March 11, 2016, 11:54:39 AM
Could be,i actually don't know how they do it.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rnolan on March 11, 2016, 02:26:53 PM
Well MJMP that's probably the important aspect... how do/are the IRs made. It's a form of sampling basically (has to be), so you feed a sine wave through a rig and create some sample designed such that it can be used (how is it interpreted ?). RG MJMP raises very salient points, At the sampling end of town, one point isn't usually enough, (ie one sound one vol etc) there are just so many variables (with "real" sound). Hey I'm not saying using IR's is wrong.. Just trying to get my head around it to help those that want to do this (and happy to help BTW), I don't particularly want to do this (for me), I definitely prefer to just make the real sounds, but hey that's my way... as you all know I'm very old school.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: van Sinn on March 12, 2016, 11:10:27 AM
Move the mic around?  Sounds like an algorithym in what ever software it if you're using to me as opposed to one impulse that contains various points, I'm pretty sure impulses are made up of single points as opposed to multiple and that works fine from my experience as no one moves my mic about at gigs.

If I want a different mic sound I pic say the IR of celestion GT75 - sm75 centre 2 inches from grill or pic celestion GT75 - sm75 centre 3 inches

I don't have impulses made up of multiples impulses, this seems like an odd concept to me.  I'm pretty sure it's impossible actually unless you brough IR's into a daw and over lapped them but I have no idea why you would do this.  I know red wirez impulses are all individual impulses and any other IR i have used is the same, they contain one set of information for what the tone will be like at that moment.

Actually, impulse-based technology is basically merely a variant of Fourier transformation, or, in our case, inverse Fourier transformation.
As such it is simply a series of discreet measurements, fed to a filter with a large number of poles and zeros, or, on more practical terms, corresponding to a large number of filter steps.
Impulse technology is also used for calculating i.e. how a  suspension bridge handles varying loads in windy conditions.
Some, or, it seems to me, a few, use up to 2048 samples, and maybe at a high sampling rate, while others may use as few as 256-512 samples.

Now, it is essentially a series of discrete samples, it really isn't infeasible to 'simply' run calculations on several sets of samples, thus essentially merge them.
I don't have i.e. the Two Notes software, but it is my understanding they actually have software that allow doing this - or am I thinking about Kemper.. :dunno:
From this also follows that it really shouldn't be that difficult recalculating the captured impulse to mimick the effect of moving the microphone.

WRT generating the impulse file, anything can be used, actually, like a sine. a sine sweep, white or pink noise, a real guitar or actual music - I think Art of Noise or Heruntergestürtzenden Neugebauten (speeling?) or maybe even pr0n sounds [sic] might make for some interesting impulses :lol:
Jokes aside, Kemper actually starts the generation of capturing an amp's characteristics by running some sweep and other weird sounding stuff through it.
After this follows the finetuning, where you'll plug your guitar in and run actual guitar sounds through, this being for fine tuning the generated impulse to best match up.
How i.e. Two Notes does it, I don't know; only that they use 2048 samples at 96 kHz.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 15, 2016, 02:20:01 AM
Well this further supports my idea that I can make my own impulses as per instructions that are online (just type in a search and it comes up) and capture my own rig for example and get a pretty good clone of the sound.

I'm going to try it but only when I get the time.  I have the voxengo software that allows the sine sweep and all that jazz and I have the capability to play it through my rig and record out the other end so I don't see why not.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: MarshallJMP on March 15, 2016, 07:51:55 AM
There's no harm in trying it out,so keep us updated on how it goes.
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: van Sinn on March 15, 2016, 11:32:37 AM
Of course you can, that's exactly what the Voxengo software (and others) were made for.
It's basically the same setup as when playing and recording, only, you'll be using the weird sounds from the software instead of your axe.
Aaaaand, you'll be spending a nice amount of time testing and getting mics lined up just right, EQ set just right, and other sortsa fun :thumb-up: :lol:
Title: Re: Cabinet Simulators
Post by: rabidgerry on March 16, 2016, 02:00:35 AM
I still love speakers and actual cabs but isn't this impulse technology amazing?

I mean it's like stealing or copying equipments souls or something!  I'll really need to set aside a day to try make an impulse of my own.  I'd love others to try make some of their own also.  May be even make a reverb or two  :)  My speaker sim can play reverb impulse as well.