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Non ADA Gear => Effects => Topic started by: rabidgerry on December 12, 2017, 10:40:00 AM

Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 12, 2017, 10:40:00 AM
I would love to have heard that Richard!  I reckon it would have sounded excellent.

How did Blackmore do it live?  John lord Harmonize with him?  The only had one guitar so I doubt he could do it all live unless the Keyboards filled it out.

I aint never tried IPS33 without using the loop, you think it will track the same for me?  I play clean enough so I think my tracking would be an issue.

Why is the so called better 33B not so good?  Ruined the purchase for me if I am honest.

As for the tranny, I'd rather see if I could switch the existing ones wiring around for 220v (you know the 220-240 region).

See attached photos Richard.

I've one more gig that involves traveling this year and when that's out of the way (London this weekend) I shall try and mod it. 
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: MikeB on December 12, 2017, 11:47:17 AM
I would love to have heard that Richard!  I reckon it would have sounded excellent.

It did! The best one I witnessed was when he was in a band called Debbie Does.   Picture a mid-thirties Richard and a bunch of teenagers. The other guitarist did the keyboard solo.   They were on fire that night!   :banana-rock:
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 12, 2017, 12:25:53 PM
That sounds excellent!!!  :thumb-up:

Mid thirties Richard, jeeez that's my right now!  Mid Thirties Gerry  :lol:
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 13, 2017, 01:10:48 AM
Debbie Does was a great band, me in my 30s and the other guys 17/18, we were playing Mr Big and Skid row etc, stuff I hadn't played before... lots of fun.

Mike gave me the transcript from Guitar Player mag, it's one of only a few solos I ever worked out, I usually play my own interpretation.  Live (think made in japan), Blackmore just played the one line without harmonies, same for smoke on the water but he played that very differently on Made in japan, and it's what I base my solo on for that song.  I did learn the studio version later but I always seem to revert to the live version when I play it.

Well looking at the pics, I'm pretty confident you can rewire the tranny (MJMP will know better and how to do it  :thumb-up: ).  My guess is it has something to do with the numbered contacts just next to the writing, so I recon your on the money there  :whoohoo!: .

Funny how the little rubber feet are stacked up on top of the tranny to contact the top plate, mines the same, I put more of them in at one point to try to quieten the tranny hum, which is quite audible when not playing. I found the hum stops when you take the top off.  The extra rubber feet didn't help, so I'm going to try just removing them and I've put some foamy stuff around the case edges where the top screws go, don't know if it will work  :dunno: but it seems the top plate vibrates and you hear the hum.
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 13, 2017, 06:06:01 AM
This is what MJMP said to me a few months back about the transformer switch

"yep it seems like you can get it to work on 230V.From what I can see you need to remove the bridge wires on 1-2 and 3-4 and place a bridge wire between 2-3."

MJMP I'll probably take some more pictures of the other side of the transformer and hopefully get you to elaborate a bit more  :thumb-up: before I do anything.

Richard, so you think the hum can be eliminated by a buffer between the lid and the tranny?
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: MarshallJMP on December 13, 2017, 12:09:29 PM
Well there is an easy check you can do, measure the resistance on the mains plug, then convert it to 220V and the resistance should be 4 times higher.
So for example if the it's 30 ohms on 110V then it should be 120 ohms on 220V.
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 14, 2017, 01:07:08 AM
Well there is an easy check you can do, measure the resistance on the mains plug, then convert it to 220V and the resistance should be 4 times higher.
So for example if the it's 30 ohms on 110V then it should be 120 ohms on 220V.

I shall do this when I make the switch, it's a good way to test without having to turn the plug on and blow it up.  I really need to see what it is I'm going to be doing first of all.  I guess I will need to un-mount the transformer and gain access to wires on the other side?
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 14, 2017, 03:51:51 AM
Hey RG, I think it's more simple than that, in the pics you posted it's a bit hard to see as that set of 4 solder points is under the wires but it should be easy like MJMP said.  Though between 2 of the points (1 & 4) there seems to be a capacitor currently  :dunno: not sure what that's for. So if you look under the wires (which block the view in the pics) there should be a connector wire between 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 (for 120v) maybe it's underneath ?  So you need to remove those connector wires and wire one between 2 & 3 only for 220v. Again don't know about the cap (which is mounted from on top of the PCB between 1 & 4).  So it seems that the tranny power input coil wires are connected to those 4 points on the PCB to make it easy to change voltage for different regions.  You could also wire a switch to the 4 points so you could switch between the 2 power inputs and put a jug socket on it (IEC).

As for hum, currently we both have a bunch of rubber feet stacked on top of one another which seems to connect the tranny vibration to the lid, which doesn't help, taking the top off solves it so I think the rubber feet is a bad idea, as I said I put more rubber feet in and it didn't help at all.

So my idea is to insulate the lid from the case a bit, as in run some foam packing or whatever (door jam seal ??) i.e 1/4" strips between the lid and the case edges that the lid attaches to, then the lid screws go through that into the case edges, so the lid is buffered from the case a little bit
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: MarshallJMP on December 15, 2017, 02:30:55 PM
Should be like R says, but if in doubt Jerry, mail me or post it here.
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 19, 2017, 01:51:42 AM
Well there is an easy check you can do, measure the resistance on the mains plug, then convert it to 220V and the resistance should be 4 times higher.
So for example if the it's 30 ohms on 110V then it should be 120 ohms on 220V.

Ok tried to do this last night and failed.

What should I be doing with my multi meter?  And using the usual setting I use for measuring say guitar pickups resistance didn't seem to work.  I was using the left and right pinc on the US plug fitted to the IPS.  But I got no reading.  I must be doing something wrong.

I want to check the reading obviously before I mod anything.
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: MarshallJMP on December 19, 2017, 07:37:14 AM
Maybe a stupid question but before the ohm testing did you turn the switch to the on position?
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 19, 2017, 07:58:48 AM
may be a stupid response!

No I didn't turn it to the on position  :facepalm:
 :facepalm:
 :facepalm:
 :facepalm:
 :facepalm:
 :facepalm:

But I will now   :thumb-up:


EDIT******************
So I put the switch into the on position and got a reading off 67ohm I think, it's the lowest setting for resistance my millimetre has.  So providing I know what I am doing with when it comes to wire switching and soldering I should get a reading of 268ohm or there about's once successfully modified right?
sorry didn't realise  :lol:
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: MarshallJMP on December 20, 2017, 05:44:36 AM
Ah okay :thumb-up:

That should be correct, although 68 ohms is quite high.
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 22, 2017, 03:27:26 AM
Ah okay :thumb-up:

That should be correct, although 68 ohms is quite high.

Well as you know, I succeeded with the mod.  Got a reading of about 245 on the plug after doing soldering the new jumper wire.
Tested out the unit after I wired a new UK plug to it and hey presto!  It works.

Buy that tranny is noisey Richard.  I get a loud hum in the signal if I turn my noise gate off.  I hope this is normal!?
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 22, 2017, 05:04:58 AM
We need to start a new topic for rewire IPS33 voltage (120v <> 230v), maybe Kim can work out how to split the specific posts out  :dunno: as this is useful in it's own right and we are getting a bit off topic.  I had a look and couldn't work out an easy way...

Hey RG, no, hum in the signal isn't normal, the hum I have is purely vibration from tranny into the case/lid, not in the signal at all.  As I posted earlier, when I take the top off it's quiet as a mouse...

Now I did ask before what the purpose of the capacitor between 1 & 4 is for, this may have something to do with your current issue  :dunno: .
Ok I pulled the "bottom" lid off my unit (as this is how you access it), and you need to use a T15 (6 pole star) screw driver bit to get the one front screw out  :facepalm: , I'd forgotten about that, but fortuitously I have one  :whoohoo!: .

So in mine, there is a jumper wire between 2 & 3 (soldered from on top as you look at it in your pic as the board is mounted upside down).  The cap (ic .01Z 500v) is soldered across the 2 power leads where they attach to the board (so the white and black leads at the top right hand corner of your pic, where they attach to AC INPUT).  So remove the cap (currently between 1 & 4 as now it does nothing), and, if it's the correct value (ic .01Z 500v), wire it between the white and black power input leads where they attach to the PCB (i.e. AC INPUT).  I suspect this will fix it, but then  :dunno: .

@MJMP, can you ratify (or otherwise) my thinking here please.

Herby may be interested in that, I couldn't find anything memory battery related on the PCB at all  :dunno: , maybe they wrote the presets to EPROM or similar  :dunno: (the only went from 1 to 99, not the usual 127/8).
To get at the underside of the PCB seems you have to take it out of the unit, so I didn't, but I couldn't see anything coming through to the top of the PCB from underneath that could be for a battery.

I also removed all the little rubber feet that were transferring vibration to the bottom lid, shall let you know if that helped with the hum I get.

Edit, it didn't make it worse, maybe sightly better ?  Seems the fix is remove bottom lid. Or maybe a new tranny ??
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 22, 2017, 09:25:28 AM
Hey Richard,

I was taking the hum to be a ground loop actually.  That's what it sounds like to me.  I bet is I isolate the ground or don't use the loop in the IPS it will be quiet like it was before. At least that's my theory.

You think the cap is causing the noise. Attached some pics of my mod

btw Herby was talking about owning an IPS33B not sure if you have been looking for a battery in your IPS33 or not but just in case you are mixed up.
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 22, 2017, 07:50:16 PM
Hey RG, yes I was looking in my early model IPS33, seems there isn't a battery in it anywhere.

So mine has a connector like you have done it between 2 & 3 but the cap currently between 1 & 4 in yours is across the AC INPUT connectors instead in mine. This makes sense as now 1 & 4 are not in use so having the cap there does nothing. But putting it across the AC INPUT (now you've rewired it) does the same job as it did when you had it wired for 130v. 
Title: Re: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 23, 2017, 04:39:29 AM
Hey RG, yes I was looking in my early model IPS33, seems there isn't a battery in it anywhere.

So mine has a connector like you have done it between 2 & 3 but the cap currently between 1 & 4 in yours is across the AC INPUT connectors instead in mine. This makes sense as now 1 & 4 are not in use so having the cap there does nothing. But putting it across the AC INPUT (now you've rewired it) does the same job as it did when you had it wired for 130v.

Ahh I see, so do you think that cap was filtering something?  And you think I should literally strap it across here (see pic)
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: MarshallJMP on December 23, 2017, 01:33:47 PM
Leave the cap like it is, 1 and 4 are still in use !!! No need to change it because the result will be the same.

Also putting it across the AC input and the cap shorts out then the fuse won't blow because you will have put it before the fuse. So leave it like it is.
It's there to filter out some EMI noise.
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 23, 2017, 07:27:42 PM
Thanks MJMP, in mine it is across the AC input as in the last pic RG posted, so maybe I should move it to be across 1 & 4.
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 24, 2017, 04:42:42 AM
Ok then I shall leave the cap where it is.

Strange though that Richards is over the AC.

A little something about the use of the IPS:
Richard, as I thought the extra noise was down to ground loop issue, I decided to leave the loop out as you had suggested.  Yes the unit seemed to track ok.  However, I then took the guitar signal and used the distortion loop send as the input.  This tracked even better for me.

My signal chain would have been this:

Guitar > EXAR OD-4 > MP1 > ROCKMAN EQ > ROCTRON HUSH IICX > IPS33 SEND > IPS33 STEREO OUT > BOSS SX700 STEREO IN

Worked a treat.

I think not using the loop I got less hum, not sure, I shall A/B it and compare without noise gate on.

Sounded great this way.  My only issue now would be, when you hit bypass on the IPS to take it out of your fx chain, the bypass signal is always louder than when the effect is on so therefore to balance you need to reach for the output knob.  This is where the IPS33B has a lot better flexibility to balance that out.

Got to be a way around it though.
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 25, 2017, 03:12:37 AM
Hey RG, interesting way to patch it, I wouldn't have thought to use the send as an input and seems doing that you bypass the IPS's input gain knob ?? i'd need to see a schematic to understand better how the signal flow works this way. So without input level control it's harder to set the wet <> bypass balance (or so it seems).  I used to use a bypass foot switch with mine. I'd set the IPS on the patch I wanted for the song and then turn it in or out with the bypass switch.  Also all my MP-1/2 stage patches are in bank 11 (110 - 119), the IPS only goes to 1 - 99, so in between songs I'd bank down to an IPS patch (e.g. 82), then bank back up to my MP-1/2 patches which the IPS didn't recognise so it would stay at 82 and I'd toggle it on when I needed it.  If the song needed multiple IPS patches, I'd make a MP-1/2 bank down in its range and have some IPS patches as bypass and map with the MP-1/2 patches.

So my patch setup back then:
Guitar > MP-1/2 > desk ch 1 & 2, (desk aux 1 & 2 > Quadverb > desk ch 3 & 4, desk aux 3 > IPS33 in, IPS A & B > desk ch 5 & 6) desk L/R out > B200s > ADA split stacks.
I'd send MP-1 A (ch 1) > aux 1 (QV L) and aux 3 (IPS in), MP-1 B (ch 2) > aux 2 (QV R) and aux 3 (IPS in) and IPS out A (ch 5) > aux 1 (QV L) IPS B (ch 6) > aux 2 (QV R). Each ch pair panned hard L/R.  This way I can balance all the levels with the ch faders and also have the IPS out in the fx/reverb.


Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 27, 2017, 02:10:15 AM
Hey Richard,

this might seem strange but if you plug into the return socket, the input level control still functions!!!!!  It's can turn it right down until nothing comes in, but will only increase it a certain amount.  Put it this way if you turn it up full, the signal will not got into the red, all greeen lights are lit.

Even with normal use I cannot balance the signal between bypass and wet.  The only way to do so is to turn the effect mix control all ther way up to full.  This however means you have more effect than you perhaps wanted in the output.

Here is another question, when you turn the unit off did your IPS resturn to patch 1?  Like say I'm on patch 33, when I power the unit off and then on again I will start back at number 1.
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 27, 2017, 08:01:21 PM
Hey RG, so are you patching into the return or the send ? previously you said the send.

I've always used it with a desk on full wet so bypass balance isn't an issue.  And yes, just checked, it reverts to patch 1 on power up regardless of the patch it was on when I powered it off.
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 28, 2017, 01:17:23 AM
Hey RG, so are you patching into the return or the send ? previously you said the send.

I've always used it with a desk on full wet so bypass balance isn't an issue.  And yes, just checked, it reverts to patch 1 on power up regardless of the patch it was on when I powered it off.
Hi Richard,

that was a mistake mate, send isn't an input lol  it's the return I plug into on the distortion loop.  Doing it this way though means no tuner.

Dam that's annoying it keeps going back to patch 1.  Wonder are their mods to change that???  Must have a look online.
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 29, 2017, 06:43:08 AM
Cant find any mods for the IPS.

I found this which might be an answer for the studio

http://nobels.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/mix-42c_ownersmanual.pdf (http://nobels.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/mix-42c_ownersmanual.pdf)

I was thinking I could hook it up like this

Guitar > Boost > MP1 > MP1 Out > Rockman EQ > Rocktron Hush IICX > Nobels Mini Mixer In >
                                                                                                                             > Nobels Mini Mixer Stereo Out > Other FX
                                MP1 SEND > IPS Return > IPS Stereo Out      > Nobels Mini Mixer In >

This would not suit me for live application, however studio I would say this would work.

Is the send on the MP1 ok?  I seem to recall people saying it's loop is sh:t!??
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 29, 2017, 07:40:20 PM
Hey RG, the send on the MP-1 is fine and a good way to get the mono signal from the unit.  The send is always active and comes after the eq and before the chorus.  The main reason some don't like the MP-1 loop is it's a bit tricky to get the gain structure right as it uses the dual ganged opposing pot to set the send/return levels i.e. if you turn the send up it turns the return down and visa versa.  If the fx unit you are putting in the loop has input and output level controls it's not so hard to get the levels right.

So you patch idea should work fine although the signal going to the IPS will have no Rockman eq or hush
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on December 30, 2017, 02:43:48 AM
So you patch idea should work fine although the signal going to the IPS will have no Rockman eq or hush

Ahhh  :poop:

I forgot about that lol I'd need another way of splitting the signal again I guess but after the Hush.  It's getting a little complicated now I think.  Just after I went and spent some cash on that little mixer!!  It was a bargain anyways  :lol:
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on December 30, 2017, 11:37:50 PM
Hey RG, you could put the eq and hush in the MP-1 loop and also split the return signal from the hush's out into the IPS in (or loop return) as well as the MP-1 return, then IPS A/B and MP-1 A/B into the mixer. You then control IPS levels with the mixer
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on January 02, 2018, 01:53:51 AM
Hey RG, you could put the eq and hush in the MP-1 loop and also split the return signal from the hush's out into the IPS in (or loop return) as well as the MP-1 return, then IPS A/B and MP-1 A/B into the mixer. You then control IPS levels with the mixer

That would mean getting another box to split the signal and therefore I think i'm making things more convoluted.

However,  I could stick the EQ and HUSH in the loop, then send MP1 Out A to the Mixer, then send MP1 Out B to the IPS, and then the IPS to the mixer.  Is that an option or have I over looked something here?

Basically this whole issue boils down to the IPS not having a good balance between bypassed signal and the wet/mix signal.  It would all be resolved if the IPS output control did not affect the bypass signal.

So by that idea I mean, if I put it on bypass, the output knob has not control over the output.  However this is not the case and If I adjust the wet mix to my liking, (normally right smack bang in the middle for me), then adjust the output to suit, then go back to bypass when not wanting IPS effect and suddenly the bypass is a lot louder than the un-bypassed.  Where as if the output control only affected the wet/mix signal then you could control your mix to what ever you liked, and always match the bypassed signal using the output knob to control the un-bypassed.

Got to be a way of modifying that?

I thought of another way around this issue, use a loop pedal?
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on January 02, 2018, 02:06:48 AM
However,  I could stick the EQ and HUSH in the loop, then send MP1 Out A to the Mixer, then send MP1 Out B to the IPS, and then the IPS to the mixer.  Is that an option or have I over looked something here?
This would work but you would still have an issue in bypass as it will increase the MP1 B compared to the wet outs.  It shouldn't be giving you such a big difference though  :dunno: but I've never run mine like this.

You could just make a Y split lead to split the hush out to go to MP-1 return and IPS in.
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on January 02, 2018, 03:06:03 AM
However,  I could stick the EQ and HUSH in the loop, then send MP1 Out A to the Mixer, then send MP1 Out B to the IPS, and then the IPS to the mixer.  Is that an option or have I over looked something here?
This would work but you would still have an issue in bypass as it will increase the MP1 B compared to the wet outs.  It shouldn't be giving you such a big difference though  :dunno: but I've never run mine like this.

You could just make a Y split lead to split the hush out to go to MP-1 return and IPS in.

Well it's enough difference that I need to turn down a few db on the output knob everytime I switch back to bypass mode.

If I set the mix knob %100 wet there is no difference between bypass and un-bypassed.

I generally run the mix control about 50% so I'm always having a difference between bypass and unbypassed and I have to constantly turn the output level up and down to suit which is annoying as hell.

BTW the difference is exactly same running the IPS exactly as the manual suggests (i.e having guitar running to input and a distortion device in the distortion loop) so the way I'm running it is not increasing the unbalanced output between bypass and mix signals.

If I was to do the loop idea I would need a stereo loop pedal (I only own a mono loop pedal  >:()
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on January 02, 2018, 06:57:28 PM
Bummer you get the difference with 50% wet  :facepalm: ..  I always ran 100% wet so I'd never noticed the issue.  I still recon the Y lead option would work for you

So MP-1 send > eq > hush > Y lead > MP-1 return/IPS in > MP-1 A/B > mixer, IPS A/B > mixer

And then you don't need a loop pedal
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on January 03, 2018, 01:14:29 AM
Yeah Y lead would work ok.  The reason I suggested a loop pedal would be because that way I wouldn't even need a mixer, it would act as my bypass and I could set the mix as I wanted and match the true bypass signal volume using the IPS output knob.  I wish I had the skills to mod the unit with a true bypass.  The bypass on the unit sounds good but obviously the volume issue is the problem.

I never run it full wet as I'm trying to have the original signal mixed in.  Obviously using a mixer you can do that at the mixer and duck the wet signal in and out as needed.

I generally make my own cables, could I make my own Y cable I wonder?  Or buy a decent quality cable?
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: MikeB on January 03, 2018, 12:18:23 PM
Hey Gerry,
I made a couple of Y cables for when I  was using my ART SplitMix. The hardest part is getting the two cables into the jack housing. You will need to strip them back to bare bones to get them in there.  I used a fair bit of shrink wrap to seal them back up.  It was a bit of a hassle although I am happy with the result. I would consider buying one if I had to do it again. Assuming I could find the right quality and length.
Mine are more of an insert cable than a Y cable but the principal is the same.
Mike

Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on January 03, 2018, 12:32:02 PM
Hey Gerry,
I made a couple of Y cables for when I  was using my ART SplitMix. The hardest part is getting the two cables into the jack housing. You will need to strip them back to bare bones to get them in there.  I used a fair bit of shrink wrap to seal them back up.  It was a bit of a hassle although I am happy with the result. I would consider buying one if I had to do it again. Assuming I could find the right quality and length.
Mine are more of an insert cable than a Y cable but the principal is the same.
Mike

Hey Mike thanks for the advise.  Been thinking about buying one actually but still holding to the idea of making one also.  I think I watched a video on how to make one before and I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it.  I've searched online and nothing obvious is bringing it up.
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rnolan on January 03, 2018, 06:27:33 PM
Easy to make one.  Use a guitar cable, cut it n half (so now you have 2 jack to bare end).  Twist the 2 actives together and the shields together and solder to a new jack.  As mike said, you need to have a decent amount of the inner cable and shield poking out so it can go into the rear of the jack as the jack will just have room for one cable
Title: Re: Digitech tech
Post by: rabidgerry on January 08, 2018, 01:16:54 AM
Ok I did not get a Y cable yet, but I hooked it up like so.

Guitar > Boost > MP1 > Rockman EQ > Roctron Hush > IPS IN > IPS OUT L             > Nobels Mini Mixer L         >
                                                                                   > IPS OUT R             > Nobels Mini Mixer R        >  Mini Mixer Stereo out
                                                                                   > IPS Unshifted Out   > Nobels Mini Mixer Centre >

When I sort out the Y cable I will then be able to forget about the unshifted output of the IPS and take my dry signal direct out of the hush, meaning I can turn on/off the IPS seperately if and when I need it.