ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear

Non ADA Gear => Basses => Topic started by: rnolan on March 21, 2014, 07:58:51 AM

Title: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on March 21, 2014, 07:58:51 AM
Well the SUB 5 string finally came today.  :whoohoo!: (the pic below is from their web site but this is what it looks like (actually, even better in the flesh)). Price point $500 AUD
So got it home on the bench, B string was wrapped around the machine head shaft top down (not bottom up (never seen that before)) so very little string break over the nut and it had a bit too much neck relief (not surprising). Tried to adjust the neck relief but it didn't want to turn mmm, neck off time. Whipped off the strings (kept them to measure where to cut the new ones, and who knows they might come in handy, normally I'd cut them near the PU so they are easy to pull through the bridge plate holes and chuck them).  Took the neck off to adjust truss rod/neck relief, very tight but got it to loosen (went that way first  ;) ), then managed (with much more force than I would have liked) to give it a 1/4 turn more than it came with.  Put the neck back on and gave it a good drink of fretboard oil (3) also gave the frets a quick gentle 1200 rub between oilings.  Next a set of DR 45 - 125 Fat Beams, had a bit of trouble getting the last bit of the B through the bridge plate hole but didn't have to ream it (the hole) in the end.  Neck relief was good, did the action/intonation, sounded great through the Carvin BR510 although the 10"s were struggling a bit with the low B (E up was awesome), may need to get the Carvin 18" cab (or similar) to cope.  I've now got this bass on a stand next to me, and it's beckoning me to play it.  So I did and lowered the action as far as I could (~went from "a bit high for me" to silky smooth, mmmm), I'm a guitar player, and this bass is great to play  :thumb-up:   At this price point, with a good setup, what a bass.

(http://www.sterlingbymusicman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ray5-ws-lrg.jpg)
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: Peter H. Boer on March 21, 2014, 08:48:01 AM
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice  O:-)
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on March 21, 2014, 09:23:52 AM
Hey Peter, Now I really wish it was mine, I just plugged it in through my TLA Ivory (hybrid) valve pre amp and into the Behringer Truths with truth sub, all flat, little bit of tube warmth from the TLA, this bass is amazing, very much like it's expensive versions, you plug them in, they just sound great.  And this ones really got character, kept me captivated all night.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: Peter H. Boer on March 22, 2014, 12:55:41 AM
Hey Peter, Now I really wish it was mine, I just plugged it in through my TLA Ivory (hybrid) valve pre amp and into the Behringer Truths with truth sub, all flat, little bit of tube warmth from the TLA, this bass is amazing, very much like it's expensive versions, you plug them in, they just sound great.  And this ones really got character, kept me captivated all night.
You got a TL Audio Ivory? A VP5051 by chance?  8)
I use a TLA VP5051 as clean channel for my bass with recordings also (and run the MB-1 parallel on a distortion patch.
Highly Modable the TLA Ivory range, Machinator modded mine and they became even better ;D
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on March 22, 2014, 04:53:08 AM
Hey Peter, I've got a 5001 quad valve preamp (bit of a misnomer as it's a hybrid where you can wind in some tube (2 x 12 AX7s using one triode per channel and each channel is completely discrete, no mixing available).  This, and a bunch of other gear (including a Focusrite Platinum Penta stereo compressor, 2 Rode NT5s', TC M One XL (I've been using this), a Roland DAW (still in the create)) was given to me by a friend who's wife wanted it out of the garage.  :whoohoo!:
Last night was the first time I'd turned the 5001 on, sounded very nice on the SUB ray5, all flat, little bit of tube wound in, so I can hear why you'd use it as a clean channel for recordings, I was enjoying it so much (the SUB and TLA together) that I didn't even turn on the record (had protools up and left it sit there as I was enjoying just playing the SUB through the TLA), then ahh 4.30 am time for bed (and by now I'm playing in B).  I'd read some not so great reviews about the 5001 but my ears told me immediately they were wrong/on drugs whatever.. The TLA is very (very) nice on bass (and I suspect on other signal sources).  Next I want to try the NT5s' through it on acoustic guitar and my Rode NT1 on vocals, I recon it will be very good, take the edge of that slight metallic-ness that Rode mics have by adding a bit of tube warmth.
Must try to catch up with Machinator, he and I were working on an idea for a 2 RU 8 channel valve line mixer (with 6 pre/post sends), perfect for ADA preamp users to bring your rig together properly, I've designed the front panel layout, now the idea needs a good clean tube circuit.

SUB ray5 went home today (smiles all round), probably just as well, it and I were bonding big time, much longer, I may not have been able to let it go, (and only got it on Friday arvo)
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: Peter H. Boer on March 22, 2014, 06:46:01 AM
5001, then you probably have an Ivory 2 series, as the original 5001 (which I also have, and which is also modified by Machinator) is strictly mic input.
The valve (on the original version) however is fully in the path though, not just mixed in.

Glad to see a guitarist fall for a bass  >:D
A well, I'm a bass player and have 5 guitars (2 homebuild) about as well  :D
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on March 22, 2014, 10:59:01 AM
Man I don't know what it is about that bass (it's got (big) personality, if you know what I mean), it just kept looking at me (am I being weird ?, play me, play me...), I'd done the initial set up, it was fine..., then I sat down and it kept beckoning me, so took all the string actions down one by one till they buzzed, and then back up 3 little turns, mmmmm by the end I couldn't stop playing it, then plugged it in through the TLA./monitors..and played it until I had to go to sleep (totally captivated).

TLA Ivory 5001, it doesn't say the series, but as you say must be 2 series, it's 4 separate inputs/outputs (1/4" instrument levels on the front; xlr mic ( phantom switch)/ or balanced XLR/unbalanced T/S mic/line in on the back) but no mix buss', sounds sooo nice though (mmm passes that test in spades).

(The valve (on the original version) however is fully in the path though, not just mixed in.), this I would prefer although this 5001 does sound good.

Man that SUB bass is great, only one I like better (to date) is one I made, Maton style EB4 body shape (all in sugar maple), straight through neck, 33" (the recipient, she's small), neck fender jazz dimensions...ebony board.... It came out well.

I do like to play bass, it's a bit hard on the fingers (sometimes), but I love how it sits in a song/feel/grove.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: Peter H. Boer on March 22, 2014, 01:21:01 PM
TLA Ivory 5001, it doesn't say the series, but as you say must be 2 series, it's 4 separate inputs/outputs (1/4" instrument levels on the front; xlr mic ( phantom switch)/ or balanced XLR/unbalanced T/S mic/line in on the back) but no mix buss', sounds sooo nice though (mmm passes that test in spades).

(The valve (on the original version) however is fully in the path though, not just mixed in.), this I would prefer although this 5001 does sound good.

Yes you have the Ivory 2, as I do not have 1/4" inputs available.
Looking up the manual, the block diagram does show the tube to be fully in the path though.
http://www.interstage.dk/Sider/Produkter/Brochure_manual/TLA/TLA_PA5001-2_man.pdf (http://www.interstage.dk/Sider/Produkter/Brochure_manual/TLA/TLA_PA5001-2_man.pdf)

Man that SUB bass is great, only one I like better (to date) is one I made, Maton style EB4 body shape (all in sugar maple), straight through neck, 33" (the recipient, she's small), neck fender jazz dimensions...ebony board.... It came out well.

I do like to play bass, it's a bit hard on the fingers (sometimes), but I love how it sits in a song/feel/grove.
Stop wimping about it being "hard on the fingers" try a 36" scale 6-string fretless with roundwounds  :lol:
We'll make a bassplayer out of you yet  :thumb-up:

Attached my Ivory-1 series 5001, which has a tube for each channel. The Ivory 2 series IIRC has only 2 tubes where each channel only uses hal a tube.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on March 22, 2014, 07:34:21 PM
In the 5001 manual it talks about turning down the output and winding up the input to get more valve involved, Very nice sound though.  I going away this week but when I get back I'll try the NT5s through it with acoustic guitar (the one I built).

Hey my fingers stood up ok, I liked that bass so much I played it quite a while (just not used to it).  A fretless 6 string 36" with round wounds (I don't like ground or blahh (no tone) flat wounds) would be lots of fun.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: Peter H. Boer on March 23, 2014, 01:39:14 AM
In the 5001 manual it talks about turning down the output and winding up the input to get more valve involved, Very nice sound though.  I going away this week but when I get back I'll try the NT5s through it with acoustic guitar (the one I built).
Aha, that's why you thoughtit's wired parallel. No it's in series and upping the gain just lets the tube work harder, and thus colour the tone more.

Hey my fingers stood up ok, I liked that bass so much I played it quite a while (just not used to it).  A fretless 6 string 36" with round wounds (I don't like ground or blahh (no tone) flat wounds) would be lots of fun.
See, you're getting there. Next SUB purchase will be for yourself  >:D
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on March 23, 2014, 09:55:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7UzSt-viPM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7UzSt-viPM)

How does it compare to my old Stingray?  I haven't played any of the SUB's but I noticed new stingrays aren't as deep and percussive.   Great looking bass BTW!

(Fixed the link)
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on March 30, 2014, 06:00:55 AM
See, you're getting there. Next SUB purchase will be for yourself  (http://adadepot.com/Smileys/default/evil.gif) :D
Very (very) tempted (when I get a job...  ahh the vagaries of the ICT security contracting market).  Then I'll need an MB-1, get my B200s going, I've got 2 new Altec 15" so just need some cabs for them...  :whoohoo!:

How does it compare to my old Stingray?  I haven't played any of the SUB's but I noticed new stingrays aren't as deep and percussive.   Great looking bass BTW!
Looks even better than the pic (pic is probably rendered), and it's got "attitude" >:D  Not sure about comparison to older Stingrays, it's been quite a few years since I recorded one (just sounded great direct, no eq).  IIRC I'd agree, not as deep, not sure about percussive (it wasn't shabby when I whacked it a bit).  But for $500 AUD, what a buy, sets up really well, looks great, only complaint was the neck relief adjustment, way tight, nearly broke the alen key I was using (well felt like it).
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 04, 2014, 05:36:34 AM
Minor update, the Ray5 got it's first run (that I got to hear) through the Fender Rumble 30 (these are very cute/great sounding amps, impressive (and I'm a bit hard to impress) and punch well above their weight).  Mike and I played acoustic, all sounded very good.  Tomorrow night the Ray gets it's first run in full band/volume anger  >:D
 :whoohoo!:
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on April 04, 2014, 06:39:23 AM
 :homer:

Nothing like breaking in new gear.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 04, 2014, 08:09:03 AM
Hey BDS, Absolutely  :whoohoo!: , I'm, trying to get Matt (the owner) on here just to talk bass stuff with you dudes.  In the fullness of time (well it's my plan  >:D ), he'll probably get a MB1 (I know I will...), I'd not heard the MB1 until your post (youtubes), I was very impressed with the sounds (variety of, (and great playing BTW)) it makes me want to buy one  :thumb-up: Hey, not that the Carvin (or Fender Rumble 30/grab one if you can!) he's got is shabby, it's a great combo amp (and 500w!), but in the same way, I'd struggle to go back to a Marshall (which I loved in its day), I'm now (after more than 40 years guitar, 25 ish with ADA) an ADA MP1/MP2/MPx/MB1 devotee  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on April 04, 2014, 01:39:37 PM
+1 for the MB-1.

Being able to swap EQ settings on the fly is just hugely important.  Don't know how I got along without it before.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: kawai2g4b on April 04, 2014, 11:16:32 PM
+1 for the MB-1.

Being able to swap EQ settings on the fly is just hugely important.  Don't know how I got along without it before.

I know right?  Unfortunately my MB-1 is still in line awaiting cleaning and minor repairs, and has been since I got it on Ebay.  However, tax return should change that soon.

On the subject of Stingrays, I will say that the Stingray Classic that came out last year sounds a lot fuller than a lot of the recent standard-line Music Man branded ones.  The Subs and Sterlings really outplay their value and feel effortless.

Sidebar: Attn: BrokeDownSouth and Peter H. Boer
I need to get a 15" speaker to fill in my ported Music Man cab to use next to a 600W Carvin 4X10.  Any recommendations?
Note: Setup is active 4,6 strings->MB-1->B500S.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: Peter H. Boer on April 05, 2014, 12:31:45 AM
I'd not heard the MB1 until your post (youtubes), I was very impressed with the sounds (variety of, (and great playing BTW)) it makes me want to buy one  :thumb-up:
For live in bandsetting MB-1 sounds, with 6-string fretted & fretless, as well as with stick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cv01-9JdYg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cv01-9JdYg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nudp1g36qR0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nudp1g36qR0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnOG9cAfiI4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnOG9cAfiI4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-ERLa7VBAg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-ERLa7VBAg)

 :banana-dance:
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: Peter H. Boer on April 05, 2014, 12:32:48 AM
+1 for the MB-1.

Being able to swap EQ settings on the fly is just hugely important.  Don't know how I got along without it before.
Exactly optimising sounds between various instruments is a breeze ?
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: kawai2g4b on April 05, 2014, 12:59:20 AM
I have to say, excellent tone, even better playing!  That is going to motivate me back to the woodshed as I have neglected the bass for a couple years due to demands on guitars.:thumb-up:
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: Peter H. Boer on April 05, 2014, 02:36:43 AM
I have to say, excellent tone, even better playing!  That is going to motivate me back to the woodshed as I have neglected the bass for a couple years due to demands on guitars.:thumb-up:
O0
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 06, 2014, 05:39:14 AM
I have to say, excellent tone, even better playing!  That is going to motivate me back to the woodshed as I have neglected the bass for a couple years due to demands on guitars. :thumb-up:
O0
+1  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 06, 2014, 06:06:47 AM
Ok, so the new SUB ray5 and Carvin got their big night out, (#kin) awesome, for $1500 AUD (and a Richard  >:D setup on the SUB) you'd be silly not to buy them..
Live, we (Matt) just had to add a little more bottom end on the SUBs eq and it was fantastic. (and BTW I've been playing for ~40 years and heard quite a few basses, this combo is good  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on April 06, 2014, 10:06:03 AM

Sidebar: Attn: BrokeDownSouth and Peter H. Boer
I need to get a 15" speaker to fill in my ported Music Man cab to use next to a 600W Carvin 4X10.  Any recommendations?
Note: Setup is active 4,6 strings->MB-1->B500S.

What is the impedance of the Carvin 410? What's the minimum impedance of the power amp?
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 06, 2014, 11:10:03 AM
Hey BDS, don't know the impedance of the Carvin 410 (probably 8 ohm..)
these particular Carvin amps are very versatile, there's a 2 ohm switch on the back, so you can do a variety of speaker impedance's as long as it doesn't go below 2 ohms, so anything from 4 ohms to 2 ohms, this switch will accommodate.  BTW it's a F#kin great amp but the MB1 sounds better...
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: kawai2g4b on April 06, 2014, 03:40:46 PM
Carvin is 8 OHMS, the power amp itself is a bi-amp design, and I will have the 370W output going to the Carvin and the 130W output going to the 15W Speaker, I do not believe the impedance between cabs will not matter because of the bi-amp design.  I would just need to get an 8 OHM 15" speaker.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on April 06, 2014, 05:22:18 PM
Ok then you shouldn't have to worry about impedance other than (assuming the amp is solid state) you'll get some more wattage or of your power amp from a 4 ohm speaker. 

With bass, the cab itself makes almost as much difference as the speaker.  I'd look for a Bag End coaxial 15", but I'm a fan so I'm biased.   Tone is so subjective, hard to make a recommendation.   Eminence bass drivers have a good reputation.   
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 06, 2014, 09:17:56 PM
I you can find an EV 400w 15" (from their old TL box range), they are very good very heavy though, huge magnet.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: kawai2g4b on April 07, 2014, 12:33:22 AM
Fortunately, the Music Man 1-15 cab is superb (I used it with my Music Man HD 130 with the original speaker inside before the speaker off-ed itself).  I am familiar with Eminence stuff in the recent Fender amps and they really are good.  I have played the Bag End cabs before and I dig them...the only issue is cost and the fact that there in only one I can source in my area.  (I avoid shipping big items if I can help it)

Rnolan, I just remembered I asked you that same question a few months back... :facepalm:  I had kept an eye open but I was not finding any luck locally.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on April 08, 2014, 04:09:35 AM
I you can find an EV 400w 15" (from their old TL box range), they are very good very heavy though, huge magnet.

+1

EV is good stuff, and yes heavy.  Old school hi fi bass speakers if you want to go the used route.   Stanley Clarke used them back in the late 70's and early 80's I think.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 08, 2014, 04:33:55 AM
You could also try some Altec 15"s (I've got a pair not cabbed yet), they made/make? a musical instrument varient (which are the ones I have, haven't heard them yet though but Altec made/make great speakers), or some JBL 15"s
(I used it with my Music Man HD 130 with the original speaker inside before the speaker off-ed itself), can you get the MM 15 re-coned ?  I just had the 15" EV in my EV 3 way TL and another out of a EV TL 15" cab re-coned, wasn't cheap though got the last 2 re-cone kit in the country and $400 AUD each (ouch), they sound great though.

An important cosideration with speakers and cab combinations is the speakers resonant frequency (FS, Q etc) as the box needs to be designed (tuned/ported) accordingly so the res freq is phase cancelled (or the res freq is lots louder than the rest).  So getting the speaker the cab was designed for (i.e. re-cone it) will save you this grief (as will buying a 15 with the same res freq as the MM)

Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on April 08, 2014, 06:52:14 AM
An important cosideration with speakers and cab combinations is the speakers resonant frequency (FS, Q etc) as the box needs to be designed (tuned/ported) accordingly so the res freq is phase cancelled (or the res freq is lots louder than the rest).  So getting the speaker the cab was designed for (i.e. re-cone it) will save you this grief (as will buying a 15 with the same res freq as the MM)

+1 again.

I was going to bring this up but couldn't put it that eloquently.  Maybe you could find the original speaker on the used market.  Or email some of the manufacturers and see if they can recommend a replacement.  What is the original speaker?
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 08, 2014, 08:33:51 AM
If you still have the original speaker/spider, see if someone has a re-cone kit for it (they probably are available ?), when you fry a speaker (which it seems to be the case), it burns out the voice coil (the insulation on the copper coil windings brakes down (melts) and shorts out), the fix for a speaker is new cone (as it's attached to new voice coil  :thumb-up: ), you can fit it yourself (I'm sure lots of you tube clips on re-coning, but it is a bit of an art), re-solder connections from voice coil to spider,  :whoohoo!: away you go.  However, as I found out with my EV 15, the re-cone was expensive and I probably could have bought a new speaker for the same (if not less) price, but hey, it's an old school EV with a new lease on life, still sounds very good and is matched to the box/xover/power handling etc.

Hey BDS, unusual for an Australian to be described as eloquent  O:-) .  The original speaker (my guess) is likely to be Eminence (though not sure), Fender used Eminence 12s in Twins etc allegedly so when Leo went off to do music man he may well have continued with them ?

There's a mob in Australia (Melbourne) who took over the old Plessy Rola factory (http://www.melbournemusiccentre.com.au/auxpage_lorantz/), some of their offering would no doubt be similar (they could probably do the re-cone) but that's lots of heavy shipping, old school 15s way a tonne, big heavy magnets.....
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: kawai2g4b on April 10, 2014, 11:31:38 PM
I unloaded the original speaker frame because of the repair cost potentials.  At the time I had too much other gear trying to off themselves to consider speaker repair.  Also the original speakers, while great, don't have significant power handling...= no solid state for my active basses.  The HD130 is about as much as it could handle.  I definitely may look into Eminence speakers with the aforementioned proper specs.  Every time I have heard their stuff, the fundamental tones and mids really burst out with a controlled high end, even with their 10s.  Seeing as I will pair a 2 or 4X10 cab with tweeter, my treble reponse will come from there and not the 15.

Once again, I appreciate the additional input!  I definitely would not have put that much thought into those points otherwise.   ;D
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 11, 2014, 12:16:10 AM
No worries, good luck with it.
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on April 11, 2014, 08:51:19 AM
 :metal:

Let us know what you buy and how it turns out!

Here's the Eminence Speaker tech:

http://www.eminence.com/guitar-bass/bass-guitar/ (http://www.eminence.com/guitar-bass/bass-guitar/)
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: BrokeDownSouth on April 11, 2014, 09:08:06 AM
Not considering your cabinet geometry, this would be a good option for a 15" 'sub'.

http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Kappalite_3015LF (http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Kappalite_3015LF)
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: kawai2g4b on April 20, 2014, 10:30:35 PM
UPDATE: Well, cab dilemma is solved.  Ended up getting a ported 15" cab with a McCauley 6000 series driver in it for $99.  After testing, I have ZERO complaints about the results, has a nice booming but controlled bottem end with great mid clarity.  WIN!  Thanks for all your help again!
Title: Re: SUB ray5-ws First impessions
Post by: rnolan on April 21, 2014, 06:41:30 AM
 :thumb-up: glad it's worked out my friend!