Pitch Shifty-ness

[Kim]

Just wondering how the peeps who use a Pitch Shift fx get it to sound as good as I've heard others do.  My Pitch Shift patch doesn't separate the two pitches very well IMO.  Sounds like it makes a "chord" by combining the two notes instead of sounding like two guitars playing the different notes if you know what I mean.  My signal chain:
           ADA MP-2
              l      l
           Xpression
              l      l
         ADA MT200
          l             l
Left Speaker    Right Speaker

Ideally, I think the original signal should be Panned to one side, and then the shifted signal Panned to the other.....or at least sound like two guitars playing at the same time instead of sounding like both notes being played on one guitar at the same time.  I keep checking the Xpression menus to see if I can fix my "problem" but I must be missing something.....anyone have this Xperience?  lol  Solution?   

[rnolan]

Hey Kim
So from you diagram, you chain through the Xpression ?, maybe try it in the MP2 stereo parallel loop, that will give better definition, then adjust send return/mix levels to suit. I have a very old Digitech IPS33 smart shift, and I use a mixer to combine it with the main sound (MP1 initially, now MP2), you can hear the pitch shifts reasonably well, but of course it's never going to be the same as 2 separate guitar tracks playing different notes (ala Blackmore Highway Star). Here's with the MP1, 3rd Guitar Solo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIr9nZ4aJfo)

[El Chiguete]

What type of pitch shift sound you are trying to get? a whammy 1 oct up effect or a harmony effect?

[Soloist]

For a chorusy type pitch shifter on my G Major 2 I set one side +12 cents the other -12 cents, panned hard right and left, 20ms delay, 0 repeats. I had an xpression but wasn't happy with it.

[Kim]

The Pitch Shift sound I'm looking for is either a Fifth up or an Octave up; I haven't decided which I like best yet.  I can't explain it very well other than what I said earlier....it sounds like the two pitches are being blended into a "chord" instead of being separate pitches.  I could understand it being like that if my fx was in FRONT of the preamp, but it isn't.

Maybe as an example....About 0:28 in this clip the harmony shift comes in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXLc3rmK10
I know it's done with studio sorcery, but I have heard this done with fx alone.  Finstah's solo in the We're Stars tribute vid featured this IIRC, unless I'm mistaken and he overdubbed that.

[Soloist]

Unfortunately to get that type of pitch shifting you need an intelligent pitch shifter and the one in the xpression is not. That is a big part of the reason I ditched mine. I have an older intellifex whose pitch shifter sounded better than the xpression. Don't get me wrong the xpression has some nice effects and tones just not in the pitch shifter, it's more of a detuner. If you have the $ an Eventide pitch factor if not a Boss PS-6 will do what you want.

[rnolan]

Also pitch shifting after the preamp can be problematic.  The tubes makes some lovely harmonics that pitch shifters can struggle to track, the IPS33 has a distortion send return loop so it gets the direct sound from the guitar which it uses to track the signal and then applies the harmonies to the distorted tube signal. So for a while I plugged the guitar into the IPS33 input, took the dist loop output into the MP1, then MP1 returns into 2 desk channels, then FX send 3 (of both channels) to the IPS33 dist loop return.  Worked fine but the IPS33's input is on the back (a hassle) so eventually I stopped bothering and just ran FX send 3 to its input, I didn't notice a marked difference so went with that.  But as Soloist said, an intelligent pitch shift helps (the IPS33 was one of the first, you can tell it what key your in and it adjusts accordingly).  Panning can also move the harmonies in you stereo mix (sound stage) to get more definition, while I used hard panning, with the small desk I use, I can do that also (but haven't needed to).

[Soloist]

OK Kim, I searched through some old notes I had for my expression/intellifex try these settings to start with. Adjust as needed...
Octive Guitar
Shifter           Pitch 1= -1200  Fine = 9  Level = -4.5   Pan = 50  Delay = 0
                     Pitch 2=  1200  Fine = 0  Level = -10.5 Pan = 50 Delay = 0
                     Pitch 3 = 0       Fine = 9  Level = -3      Pan = 50 Delay =0
                     Pitch 4= -1200 Fine = 0  Level = 0        Pan = 100 Delay =0                                           Mixer             Effect Level = 1  Left Dir Level = 3.5 Rt Dir Level = 3.5  Direct = post hush
                     Right and Left regen = 0 
Hush              In    Thres = -20  rel rate = 200ms     

Vai type shift
Shifter - Pitch1= 900  Fine = 0  Level = 0  Pan = 25  Delay = 180
            Pitch2 = 500  Fine = 0  Level = 0  Pan = 75  Delay = 360
            Pitch3 = 1200 Fine = 0 Level = 0  Pan = 50  Delay = 0
            Pitch4 = 1200 Fine = 0 Level = 0 Pan = 50   Delay = 0
Mixer -  Effect lvl = 2.0 R/L Dir Level = 0  Direct = Pre Hush R/L regen = -Iinfinity
Hush -  In  Thresh = -68  Rel rate = 200ms

These from my Voodo Valve

Drop 3rd        Level 2  Pan 23  Pitch -400    Fine -8 Speed med

Major 3rd       Level 6  Pan 31  Pitch 400     Fine -9 Speed slow

Maybe one of these can get you closer. Good Luck!

[El Chiguete]

  I could understand it being like that if my fx was in FRONT of the preamp, but it isn't.

Actually when placed infront is that it sounds the best, thats why the Whammy pedal goes in front not in the loop. And yes you need an intelligent shifter so you can tell it what key and what scale your are playing so it can shift the propper notes.

[rabidgerry]

Have never understood whammy pedals.  ALways sounded like nonsense to me.

On the other hand I use the Harmonist on my boss GT5.  It's the same Harmonist in the Boss GX700 only that has one extra voice.  The Roland GP100 which is famed for it's harmoniser (google it) has a 4 voice Harmonist.

I'll make a clip of some of the uses I have for it and post it.  I made my own user scales using the compose feature for certain things and I'm starting to use it more in places.

I don't know what people think of Boss and their pitch/harmonist devices but in my experiences they track 95% perfect and 100% perfect if you can play neatly.  I don't think I've ever come across a better pitch shifting device.  I like the sound also.  Sure they all sound a little keyboardy/synthy at time but I like that and it sounds f**king good to me.
The pitch shift in the boss is also really advanced.  It has an option to allow for chords to be mimicked.  I never use it because I just use the Harmonist but Boss really detailed the Modulation block on the GT5 as well as the synth.  Some people will buy a GT5 just for the synth alone the same way some people will buy the Roland GP100 just for the Harmonist.

I've played a zoom harmonist before and it was ok.  Sounded ok but it got the occasional note wrong.  The boss does what I want.  When I play live the direct sound is in the middle and each voice I select for the harmony is at the left and right.  Sounds good.

[Kim]

Thanks guys.  I will fiddle with it again tonight at rehearsal.   I really hope to not have to put more $$ into my rig...   :-\

[Kim]

Ok, I made another observation.  The Pitch Shift seemed to be a lot better on the higher notes than the lower ones.  Playing a lead up on the meedly meedlies sounded pretty much as it should, but down on the chugga chugga strings is where it doesn't sound so good and makes it sound like a messy chord.   This might help get me closer to figuring out what I need to do here....

[Kim]

Might be resolved.  I Panned the shifted signal all the way over to the other side and it seemed to clear it up.   :banana:

[rabidgerry]

I realise I'm not using the same stuff as you Kim but I felt my use of pitchshiftyness was relevant.  Here is a little demo I cooked up quick so the playing aint perfect.  Did it this afternoon.  Nearly  got it.  Cooked the drum track up after.  Shoulda just recorded the one of the drum machine I played along too rather than make a new one up from scratch  :facepalm:  like giving myself more work to do!

KV98 Squier Strat > Boss GT5 > Boss send > 3TM MP1 Input > 3TM MP1 Output > Boss Return > Boss Harmoniser > Boss Reverb > Boss Stereo Output > EPSI Speaker Sim Stereo Input > Zoom MRS1608 Stereo Input

https://soundcloud.com/rabidgerry/demon-mind-solo-demo