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Author Topic: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)  (Read 16458 times)

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rnolan

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So stating this topic to continue drum miking discussion (at RabidGerrys suggestion  :thumb-up: ) for those of us who still prefer real drums live and/or recording.
The heart of it is to have good sounding drums and a drummer who knows how to tune them (I've lost count of how many kits I've had to tune as a sound guy coz they have no idea  :facepalm: ). Then what's the situation, e.g. James Morrison's band lots of horns etc, very live sound, not to loud, I mixed them once, they wanted kick and 2 overheads, I think his brother is/was the drummer. Great sounding kit easy to mix but not competing with loud rock guitar.  Compared to say Armard Angel, heavy rock, very loud, close miked, heavilly damped (used allot of gaph tape that night....), gates weren't around much back then, if I'd had some I would have used them.
@RG, (although didn't Bonham get recorded by two mics rnolan?) I wasn't aware that John Bonham did such a sparse mike up but it doesn't surprise me, if you have a great drum sound in a good room a stereo pair is fine. Also depends how much control you want later. I read of one HM band that spent a year replacing every drum hit one by one digitally, each to their own... I remember around Deep Purple Fireball (where's my walking stick LOL), where Ian Paice discovered he didn't want to play in dead padded studio drum booths, well he apparently was walking down the corridor between control room and studio hitting his snare and loved the sound he got in a live/reverby space, so from then on he set up in the corridor... And then god invented good live drum rooms...
Here's a thought bubble I just had, we always/usually mike the kick from the front (either inside or outside) and typically the other drums from on top, so that puts them out of phase(ish), I'm going to try miking the kick the same from the other side (might have to oil the kick pedal LOL)
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rabidgerry

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

I will always mic a drum kit.  The only time I use sequencer is when I'm writing a track, and I want to tell the drummer roughly what I want and also where I expect certain bits to happen, because sometimes he just wants to stick stuff all over the f__king place and I;m like

"no, no not there it's clashing" or "no, no this bit is for the vocals to be dominant"

rnolan, someone told me that about Bonham, perhaps it was in the early days.  Google it cause that person could have been talking shit to me.

As you rightly point out, I prefer a lot of control.  The reason I like control is because I am relatively new to music production.  So because of that fact, it is easy for me to correct stuff if I have seperate channels for everything.  It does however give you too much to play with at times.  Example:  I have a snare, 3 toms, 2 overheads, and a kick.  You can spend hours eqing each one to death and getting nowhere!!!

Replacement drums - EVIL.  I am not a fan of modern production, particularly in heavy metal music since that is my forte.  I hate it because it's too perfect now, and has reached a plateu bascially of sonic perfection.  What this creates is one boring sound now that everything has.  For a long time now a lot of European Power metal stuff comes with drums replaced to death and everything done with triggers and all that shite.  A trend to going back to doing things for real I believe has started to happen though which is nice.

I (again being sorta new music production) have however used the tool of drum replacement to fix things in what may seem like a contradiction to what I just said. I will not deny it has uses.  However I justfy my use because of limitations and time restraints that have not allowed for re-recording.

On snare tracks I recorded with the mic in a shit position.  The drum sounded rubbish.  However I had managed to get a good track with hardly any bleed.  This allowed me to use APTrigga to replace the snare hits with samples that I RECORDED (not stolen from a sample pack) with the mic in a better postion of our drummers actual drum.  This also meant I did not have to gate the drum then because I ended up with a pure snare only track.  To make it more real I loaded APTrigga with multiple hits ranging from soft to hard.  Worked a treat.  I would not have done this had I not screwed up the first time.  I just gated the kick then and the toms, and mixed in the overheads and BAM!!  Drums!!

Anyways what a ramble that was!!!

What over head pattern to you use rnolan?  I X-Y it myself.  I get a good stereo image.  I seem to have been lucky in that regard as I never had any issues with over heads, I nailed it the first time I ever tried it.
« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

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rabidgerry

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

Ian Paice discovered he didn't want to play in dead padded studio drum booths, well he apparently was walking down the corridor between control room and studio hitting his snare and loved the sound he got in a live/reverby space, so from then on he set up in the corridor... And then god invented good live drum rooms...
Here's a thought bubble I just had, we always/usually mike the kick from the front (either inside or outside) and typically the other drums from on top, so that puts them out of phase(ish), I'm going to try miking the kick the same from the other side (might have to oil the kick pedal LOL)

If I had a room like Ian I'd record that way.  I have heard lenty of stories like that.  Judas Priest did the drums in the hall of Ringo Stars house which used to be John Lennons studio.  They had the drums on the landing though up the stairs.  Think guitars where done in the bathroom!!!  I love all that stuff but I would never have that luxury.

I considered micing the kick from the outside before, round the side where the drummer is, but I just got him to take of the resonant head :)  It was because I could not get the mic far enough in the little hole he had cut out of the front.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

rnolan

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, there's no one right way, I've trod a path very similar over the years, when I did audio engineering course (35 years ago) it was in the time of close mike everything, maximum control etc, have 24 tracks so use them... live you need to close mike for spill/feedback reasons (and control). All options are valid, even using triggers to get what you need (and good that you use the real drum and make them yourself BTW). After all these years, I like it as live as I can make it (within reason), the main thing is to capture the energy, I'd rather a part warts and all that cooks than a note/beat perfect part but no life. Main thing to keep in mind for all instauments is get a good sound at the source, make the player happy (so lots of good energy), place mike well to capture the good sound, process as little as possible (coz mike was well placed next to good sound!), keep it analogue as much as you can, then, most of the jobs done....
I went through a stage of not wanting resonant heads on drums (in hindsight it's because most drummers can't tune their kits properly), I'm the opposite now, but they have to be tuned.  Also I don't like pin stripes any more (too dead), I prefer blatter heads with a bit of ring, and use drum rings not gaph to get rid of the overtones, nice live vibrant tones (but I've grown to this point and done lots of other ideas on the way LOL)
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rabidgerry

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

Not saying there is any right or wrong, I just know what I think is better  :thumb-up:.

I have saw those guy's show up live with a midi trigger and they stick it on their kick drum and go nuts.  It still sounds like shit  :lol: Weak and clicky.

I have never had drum tuning issues with drums.  Our drummer vaguley seems to know about that.  Before he starts drumming I go through all that to make sure everything is spot on and all the rattles and rumbles and clicks are gone.

I think some things are needed for certain jobs though.  I detest the drum ring you are particularly fond off.  It has no place in anything I do lol.  I think s stupid steel snare that rang a lot that our drummer had made me hate them even more.  I made him buy a new one that actually sounded like a snare.

The last ACDC album had a lot of ring on the snare which.........was ok.  I'd never want to hear it again though. 

I have one tiny piece of moon gell style stuff on our drummers snare, that's it.  Just to stop the ring just enough.  It's ok with the  subtle ringing that it has but I prefer it dampned a little.  I get a much better sound now micing parallel to the batter head and about an inch inside the rim pointing across the skin.  I get snap and density and bounce.
« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
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Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

rnolan

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

Yeah placement (and mike choice) is paramount and worth spending the time to get right. I like some overtones from a drum these days, but there is the practicality of (particularly live) where the rings are so over the top through the PA that you have to do something, early days we'd gaph a cigarette pact full of fluff/cotton wool or even empty on the edge, or you could drop one lug 1/2 a turn, worked sometimes, or you could deaden them with heaps of gaph, whatever got the gig going. When I discovered snare rings (i.e. old snare skin but just 1" of the outside, big hole in the middle, just tames the overtones at the edge), normally no tape but some drummers like a tiny bit to keep it in position, I found they take out the overtones causing PA problems but allow me to keep good life in the snare and not have to deaden it overly.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

hahaha when I first met our drummer he had crap stuck all over his drum kit.  Then he found O rings.

Are O rings not considered evil by people?  I have heard people say "learn to tune your drums and you wont need o rings"  We were using them until I discovered the skins on the toms our drummer uses that have a metal rim inside the skin all the way around sounded fine withut O rings.  Then when he got his new snare we liked the overtones of the snare a lot however we found by depressing fingers near the rim, about 4 inches inward dampened it just enough, so then I stuck the little slap klatz on there and it's stayed there ever since.  slap Klatz are bascialy danish moon gels 

http://www.slapklatz.com/

A bit of ring or overtones is ok actually, but very very subtle, correcting myslf again hahahahaha  O:-)
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

People say "learn to tune your drums and you wont need o rings",wel i find this also.You can tune a drum with alot of resonance by tuning top and bottom head on the same pitch,now if you want minimum resonance tune the top head down and the bottom up to a bit less then twice the pitch of the top head.Another thing is the lug pitch,you need to make sure these are all pitched the same.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

Interesting.  So to kill over resonance tighten the bottom head to near twice the pitch of the top.  That sounds easy enough.

I'm not really in any need to do this because our drums sound fine but it is good info to have.

What are pitch lugs?  Are these the nuts that you are supposed to tune in a star shape?
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

rnolan

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

Now we get into all the different things people do to get the kit to sound how they want. Traditionally, you tune the bottom head down usually either a 4th or 5th, I've not heard of tuning up an octave, but hey if it works... makes for a very tight head though. Some of this is about controlling the standing waves in side the drum (skins are parallel), some is about edge resonances and different skins and drums perform quite differently, e.g pin striped are damped from their construction, the white heads (what are they called ??) have a lot more overtones. The less you have to do to dampen them the better. I like the overtones of a well tuned kit and it's worth getting all that right before you try to put a mic on them. O rings are useful in some situations, particularity live and loud where you don't have much time and generally better than having to use gaph tape. But then you can find and dampen an annoying resonance with moon gels LOL sometimes. But I agree, a good kit with good skins tuned properly sounds best (live and studio).
The pitch lug(s) is just what the tuning bolts around the skin are called (usually referred to just as lugs). There's also a trick that can work sometimes when there's an annoying ring you need to get rid of (quickly) as it's being blown totally out of proportion by PA and you can't easily eq it out without destroying the tone (and I don't like too much eq (if any) on drums), if you drop one lug (1/4 or 1/2 a turn) it can fix it. Doesn't always work.  These don't replace good tuning, but when you're under the time pump (at a gig or paying for studio time) they can help. Taking off the bottom heads (used to be the fashion, I'm not a fan) takes away the internal standing wave issues but there are still intersting and sometimes annoying resonances around the skin (which probably mean needs new skin, or it wasn't put on properly). As MJMP says, all the lugs for/around one skin/head should be tuned the same.
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rnolan

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

Just thinking about MJMPs technique of tuning bottom head up much higher, this would help control standing waves in the drum a bit as they tend to be bigger with more energy at low frequencies (simple physics). So higher frequencies will be less affected, also the very tight bottom skin wont move as much and will act a bit like amp dampening factor to pull the top head up faster after being struck.
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

This tuning was for minimum resonance,you can also tune it in between if you want a bit more resonance.For me this setting is a bit too much,i like a bit of resonance,else the drum sounds dead and it's like your hitting carton boxes.I don't need to use any damping,just on the 16" floortom i have 1 moongel.Also the drum is tuned in notes,from 8" 3E, 10" 3C, 12" 2G#, 13" 2F#, 14"FT 2E, 16"FT 2C,22"BD 1D,second BD a bit higher.This takes the sound of the drum to another level.

Also have 4 different snare drums.All Tama,these are tuned different depending on the material used.
Tama warlord valkyrie, 14"x6" 15 ply maple 13mm,very thick and heavy maple snare tuned to 3G#
Tama John Tempesta signature,14"x7" 2mm brass snare tuned high to a 3A#,this is a very loud snare.
Tama starclassic bubinga 14"x5.5" 9 ply bubinga tuned to 3F#.
Tama Mike Portnoy sig,12"x5" 1mm steel.Also tuned to 3A",used as a second snare on the side of the kit,my son uses this for the more South American stuff like Salsa,Bosa Nova,Samba.

All drums and snares have die cast hoops,i prefer these over flanged hoops because they stay better in tune.

As for heads all evans except the 4 octobans which are Remo 6" pinstripes.
For Bassdrum batter head Evans EMAD2,comes with 2 different dampening rings.Resonant head is a Emad RESO,has a mic hole with a small dampening ring inside,which believe it or not makes alot of difference.
Toms and Floortom are all EC2S batter heads and EC2 Resonant.
Snare batter heads a mix of ST Dry and HD Dry with all Evans 300 resonant heads.

Cymbals are all Sabian,a mix of HHX,AAX and HH except for the second hihat which is a paiste.

Also a tip on using a mic for the floortom(s),always point the mic to the center of the batter head else you will get waaay to much resonance.Try it out,you will hear the difference.
Also check this out,some cool videos about how to mic up a drum kit.
http://www.audixusa.com/docs_12/about/videos_how_to_mic_drums.shtml

« Last Edit: Time Format by MarshallJMP »
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rnolan

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

Hey MJMP, you've put some time into this  :thumb-up: thanks for the info, I'll try that FT centre technique next time I mike one.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #13 on: Time Format »

Not that I'm a drummer or a drum expert,

but I have a slap klatz (danish moon gel lol random) on the snare and that;s it.  Our drummers toms sound fine.  He has these weird skins with steel in them around the outter skin.

http://www.slapklatz.com/


I think his snare has acceptable resonance without the slap klatz but I never heard the "ring" on any records I love so I don't want to hear it on mine.  (Apart from ACDC - Black Ice album)  He used to have a stainless steel snare, but it was the worst boxey sounding snare with horrible ring in the world!!!  It sounded very dead then when you dampened this.

Our drummers tunes the drums.  I just point out the problems and the rattles when they occur as I can hear em in the mic's.

We've got off the beaten track again and forgot that we were meant to be talking about micing drums.  We are now talking about drum tuning.
« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

rnolan

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Re: Miking Drums (continuing from rig pix thread)
« Reply #14 on: Time Format »

Hard to talk about drum tuning without drum miking in a live PA or recording sense. As MJMP says, the tuning comes first, then mike it (close mike or ambient or both).
BTW your drummers toms do sound good (from the track you sent, they were the best sounding (quiet noticeably through the Truths), but quite different to the rest of the kit ?).
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