ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Miscellaneous => Recording - Studio Talk => Topic started by: rnolan on December 03, 2014, 03:58:46 AM
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So stating this topic to continue drum miking discussion (at RabidGerrys suggestion :thumb-up: ) for those of us who still prefer real drums live and/or recording.
The heart of it is to have good sounding drums and a drummer who knows how to tune them (I've lost count of how many kits I've had to tune as a sound guy coz they have no idea :facepalm: ). Then what's the situation, e.g. James Morrison's band lots of horns etc, very live sound, not to loud, I mixed them once, they wanted kick and 2 overheads, I think his brother is/was the drummer. Great sounding kit easy to mix but not competing with loud rock guitar. Compared to say Armard Angel, heavy rock, very loud, close miked, heavilly damped (used allot of gaph tape that night....), gates weren't around much back then, if I'd had some I would have used them.
@RG, (although didn't Bonham get recorded by two mics rnolan?) I wasn't aware that John Bonham did such a sparse mike up but it doesn't surprise me, if you have a great drum sound in a good room a stereo pair is fine. Also depends how much control you want later. I read of one HM band that spent a year replacing every drum hit one by one digitally, each to their own... I remember around Deep Purple Fireball (where's my walking stick LOL), where Ian Paice discovered he didn't want to play in dead padded studio drum booths, well he apparently was walking down the corridor between control room and studio hitting his snare and loved the sound he got in a live/reverby space, so from then on he set up in the corridor... And then god invented good live drum rooms...
Here's a thought bubble I just had, we always/usually mike the kick from the front (either inside or outside) and typically the other drums from on top, so that puts them out of phase(ish), I'm going to try miking the kick the same from the other side (might have to oil the kick pedal LOL)
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I will always mic a drum kit. The only time I use sequencer is when I'm writing a track, and I want to tell the drummer roughly what I want and also where I expect certain bits to happen, because sometimes he just wants to stick stuff all over the f__king place and I;m like
"no, no not there it's clashing" or "no, no this bit is for the vocals to be dominant"
rnolan, someone told me that about Bonham, perhaps it was in the early days. Google it cause that person could have been talking shit to me.
As you rightly point out, I prefer a lot of control. The reason I like control is because I am relatively new to music production. So because of that fact, it is easy for me to correct stuff if I have seperate channels for everything. It does however give you too much to play with at times. Example: I have a snare, 3 toms, 2 overheads, and a kick. You can spend hours eqing each one to death and getting nowhere!!!
Replacement drums - EVIL. I am not a fan of modern production, particularly in heavy metal music since that is my forte. I hate it because it's too perfect now, and has reached a plateu bascially of sonic perfection. What this creates is one boring sound now that everything has. For a long time now a lot of European Power metal stuff comes with drums replaced to death and everything done with triggers and all that shite. A trend to going back to doing things for real I believe has started to happen though which is nice.
I (again being sorta new music production) have however used the tool of drum replacement to fix things in what may seem like a contradiction to what I just said. I will not deny it has uses. However I justfy my use because of limitations and time restraints that have not allowed for re-recording.
On snare tracks I recorded with the mic in a shit position. The drum sounded rubbish. However I had managed to get a good track with hardly any bleed. This allowed me to use APTrigga to replace the snare hits with samples that I RECORDED (not stolen from a sample pack) with the mic in a better postion of our drummers actual drum. This also meant I did not have to gate the drum then because I ended up with a pure snare only track. To make it more real I loaded APTrigga with multiple hits ranging from soft to hard. Worked a treat. I would not have done this had I not screwed up the first time. I just gated the kick then and the toms, and mixed in the overheads and BAM!! Drums!!
Anyways what a ramble that was!!!
What over head pattern to you use rnolan? I X-Y it myself. I get a good stereo image. I seem to have been lucky in that regard as I never had any issues with over heads, I nailed it the first time I ever tried it.
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Ian Paice discovered he didn't want to play in dead padded studio drum booths, well he apparently was walking down the corridor between control room and studio hitting his snare and loved the sound he got in a live/reverby space, so from then on he set up in the corridor... And then god invented good live drum rooms...
Here's a thought bubble I just had, we always/usually mike the kick from the front (either inside or outside) and typically the other drums from on top, so that puts them out of phase(ish), I'm going to try miking the kick the same from the other side (might have to oil the kick pedal LOL)
If I had a room like Ian I'd record that way. I have heard lenty of stories like that. Judas Priest did the drums in the hall of Ringo Stars house which used to be John Lennons studio. They had the drums on the landing though up the stairs. Think guitars where done in the bathroom!!! I love all that stuff but I would never have that luxury.
I considered micing the kick from the outside before, round the side where the drummer is, but I just got him to take of the resonant head :) It was because I could not get the mic far enough in the little hole he had cut out of the front.
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Hey RG, there's no one right way, I've trod a path very similar over the years, when I did audio engineering course (35 years ago) it was in the time of close mike everything, maximum control etc, have 24 tracks so use them... live you need to close mike for spill/feedback reasons (and control). All options are valid, even using triggers to get what you need (and good that you use the real drum and make them yourself BTW). After all these years, I like it as live as I can make it (within reason), the main thing is to capture the energy, I'd rather a part warts and all that cooks than a note/beat perfect part but no life. Main thing to keep in mind for all instauments is get a good sound at the source, make the player happy (so lots of good energy), place mike well to capture the good sound, process as little as possible (coz mike was well placed next to good sound!), keep it analogue as much as you can, then, most of the jobs done....
I went through a stage of not wanting resonant heads on drums (in hindsight it's because most drummers can't tune their kits properly), I'm the opposite now, but they have to be tuned. Also I don't like pin stripes any more (too dead), I prefer blatter heads with a bit of ring, and use drum rings not gaph to get rid of the overtones, nice live vibrant tones (but I've grown to this point and done lots of other ideas on the way LOL)
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Not saying there is any right or wrong, I just know what I think is better :thumb-up:.
I have saw those guy's show up live with a midi trigger and they stick it on their kick drum and go nuts. It still sounds like shit :lol: Weak and clicky.
I have never had drum tuning issues with drums. Our drummer vaguley seems to know about that. Before he starts drumming I go through all that to make sure everything is spot on and all the rattles and rumbles and clicks are gone.
I think some things are needed for certain jobs though. I detest the drum ring you are particularly fond off. It has no place in anything I do lol. I think s stupid steel snare that rang a lot that our drummer had made me hate them even more. I made him buy a new one that actually sounded like a snare.
The last ACDC album had a lot of ring on the snare which.........was ok. I'd never want to hear it again though.
I have one tiny piece of moon gell style stuff on our drummers snare, that's it. Just to stop the ring just enough. It's ok with the subtle ringing that it has but I prefer it dampned a little. I get a much better sound now micing parallel to the batter head and about an inch inside the rim pointing across the skin. I get snap and density and bounce.
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Yeah placement (and mike choice) is paramount and worth spending the time to get right. I like some overtones from a drum these days, but there is the practicality of (particularly live) where the rings are so over the top through the PA that you have to do something, early days we'd gaph a cigarette pact full of fluff/cotton wool or even empty on the edge, or you could drop one lug 1/2 a turn, worked sometimes, or you could deaden them with heaps of gaph, whatever got the gig going. When I discovered snare rings (i.e. old snare skin but just 1" of the outside, big hole in the middle, just tames the overtones at the edge), normally no tape but some drummers like a tiny bit to keep it in position, I found they take out the overtones causing PA problems but allow me to keep good life in the snare and not have to deaden it overly.
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hahaha when I first met our drummer he had crap stuck all over his drum kit. Then he found O rings.
Are O rings not considered evil by people? I have heard people say "learn to tune your drums and you wont need o rings" We were using them until I discovered the skins on the toms our drummer uses that have a metal rim inside the skin all the way around sounded fine withut O rings. Then when he got his new snare we liked the overtones of the snare a lot however we found by depressing fingers near the rim, about 4 inches inward dampened it just enough, so then I stuck the little slap klatz on there and it's stayed there ever since. slap Klatz are bascialy danish moon gels
http://www.slapklatz.com/ (http://www.slapklatz.com/)
A bit of ring or overtones is ok actually, but very very subtle, correcting myslf again hahahahaha O:-)
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People say "learn to tune your drums and you wont need o rings",wel i find this also.You can tune a drum with alot of resonance by tuning top and bottom head on the same pitch,now if you want minimum resonance tune the top head down and the bottom up to a bit less then twice the pitch of the top head.Another thing is the lug pitch,you need to make sure these are all pitched the same.
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Interesting. So to kill over resonance tighten the bottom head to near twice the pitch of the top. That sounds easy enough.
I'm not really in any need to do this because our drums sound fine but it is good info to have.
What are pitch lugs? Are these the nuts that you are supposed to tune in a star shape?
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Now we get into all the different things people do to get the kit to sound how they want. Traditionally, you tune the bottom head down usually either a 4th or 5th, I've not heard of tuning up an octave, but hey if it works... makes for a very tight head though. Some of this is about controlling the standing waves in side the drum (skins are parallel), some is about edge resonances and different skins and drums perform quite differently, e.g pin striped are damped from their construction, the white heads (what are they called ??) have a lot more overtones. The less you have to do to dampen them the better. I like the overtones of a well tuned kit and it's worth getting all that right before you try to put a mic on them. O rings are useful in some situations, particularity live and loud where you don't have much time and generally better than having to use gaph tape. But then you can find and dampen an annoying resonance with moon gels LOL sometimes. But I agree, a good kit with good skins tuned properly sounds best (live and studio).
The pitch lug(s) is just what the tuning bolts around the skin are called (usually referred to just as lugs). There's also a trick that can work sometimes when there's an annoying ring you need to get rid of (quickly) as it's being blown totally out of proportion by PA and you can't easily eq it out without destroying the tone (and I don't like too much eq (if any) on drums), if you drop one lug (1/4 or 1/2 a turn) it can fix it. Doesn't always work. These don't replace good tuning, but when you're under the time pump (at a gig or paying for studio time) they can help. Taking off the bottom heads (used to be the fashion, I'm not a fan) takes away the internal standing wave issues but there are still intersting and sometimes annoying resonances around the skin (which probably mean needs new skin, or it wasn't put on properly). As MJMP says, all the lugs for/around one skin/head should be tuned the same.
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Just thinking about MJMPs technique of tuning bottom head up much higher, this would help control standing waves in the drum a bit as they tend to be bigger with more energy at low frequencies (simple physics). So higher frequencies will be less affected, also the very tight bottom skin wont move as much and will act a bit like amp dampening factor to pull the top head up faster after being struck.
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This tuning was for minimum resonance,you can also tune it in between if you want a bit more resonance.For me this setting is a bit too much,i like a bit of resonance,else the drum sounds dead and it's like your hitting carton boxes.I don't need to use any damping,just on the 16" floortom i have 1 moongel.Also the drum is tuned in notes,from 8" 3E, 10" 3C, 12" 2G#, 13" 2F#, 14"FT 2E, 16"FT 2C,22"BD 1D,second BD a bit higher.This takes the sound of the drum to another level.
Also have 4 different snare drums.All Tama,these are tuned different depending on the material used.
Tama warlord valkyrie, 14"x6" 15 ply maple 13mm,very thick and heavy maple snare tuned to 3G#
Tama John Tempesta signature,14"x7" 2mm brass snare tuned high to a 3A#,this is a very loud snare.
Tama starclassic bubinga 14"x5.5" 9 ply bubinga tuned to 3F#.
Tama Mike Portnoy sig,12"x5" 1mm steel.Also tuned to 3A",used as a second snare on the side of the kit,my son uses this for the more South American stuff like Salsa,Bosa Nova,Samba.
All drums and snares have die cast hoops,i prefer these over flanged hoops because they stay better in tune.
As for heads all evans except the 4 octobans which are Remo 6" pinstripes.
For Bassdrum batter head Evans EMAD2,comes with 2 different dampening rings.Resonant head is a Emad RESO,has a mic hole with a small dampening ring inside,which believe it or not makes alot of difference.
Toms and Floortom are all EC2S batter heads and EC2 Resonant.
Snare batter heads a mix of ST Dry and HD Dry with all Evans 300 resonant heads.
Cymbals are all Sabian,a mix of HHX,AAX and HH except for the second hihat which is a paiste.
Also a tip on using a mic for the floortom(s),always point the mic to the center of the batter head else you will get waaay to much resonance.Try it out,you will hear the difference.
Also check this out,some cool videos about how to mic up a drum kit.
http://www.audixusa.com/docs_12/about/videos_how_to_mic_drums.shtml
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Hey MJMP, you've put some time into this :thumb-up: thanks for the info, I'll try that FT centre technique next time I mike one.
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Not that I'm a drummer or a drum expert,
but I have a slap klatz (danish moon gel lol random) on the snare and that;s it. Our drummers toms sound fine. He has these weird skins with steel in them around the outter skin.
http://www.slapklatz.com/ (ftp://www.slapklatz.com/)
I think his snare has acceptable resonance without the slap klatz but I never heard the "ring" on any records I love so I don't want to hear it on mine. (Apart from ACDC - Black Ice album) He used to have a stainless steel snare, but it was the worst boxey sounding snare with horrible ring in the world!!! It sounded very dead then when you dampened this.
Our drummers tunes the drums. I just point out the problems and the rattles when they occur as I can hear em in the mic's.
We've got off the beaten track again and forgot that we were meant to be talking about micing drums. We are now talking about drum tuning.
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Hard to talk about drum tuning without drum miking in a live PA or recording sense. As MJMP says, the tuning comes first, then mike it (close mike or ambient or both).
BTW your drummers toms do sound good (from the track you sent, they were the best sounding (quiet noticeably through the Truths), but quite different to the rest of the kit ?).
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That's a bit weird. His toms are large, for a two rack 1 floor kits. Those shells came are part of the same kit he has had since he was a teenager. It's by no means an expensive kit. The toms have a very deep bassy punding sound. Perhaps too much, but since it's all he has they are what we have!!! He has however a new smaller tom and this is what is causing me an issue micing the way I want as it's in the way and he does not have a rack. So anyways this new tom means he can start his rolls there rather than the snare and then his toms which is something he likes to do, or he can extend them by including the snare, then all the toms hahaha
I don't know if I notice what you mean about them different from the rest of the kit. I know the track I let you hear the snare needs EQ'd, there is a lot of 250 hz, alot!! The kick needs eq'd different as well. And I'm debating if the overheads need harshness taken out of them. I eq'd them in a way that only leaves the cymbals and hat mainly.
How does everyone mic their snare? 2 mics? One top and bottom? pointing at the batter head? Pointing at the shell? Pointing across the drum like I do?
Since I started doing the across head postion I have got a much better snare and less boxy and nice bass bounce and snap.
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Back in the 80's it was normal to have power toms which were very deep with no so deep bassdrums usually 16".Now it's the other way around,deeper DB's usually 22 to 24" and smaller toms.
Hey Rabitgerry,do you have a pic of that drumhead?
I use 2 mics for the snare,top and bottom,the top for the "meat" and the bottom for the "crack",but the bottom one needs to be phase inversed.The bottom is pointed to the middle of the snares,the bottom is pointed between the rim and the center.
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In the end it's what you've got on hand and how much time you have to play around with it to get the sound you want, for me, get a good sounding drum and capture/mike it as best I can. I've never been big on bottom snare miking (good idea if you have the mics), but I didn't allays have a spare mic to do it. Reversing the phase is, as MJMP says, very important, but not all desks have a phase reverse on the channel so you'd need to make a phase reverse mic lead (i.e. swap pin 2 and 3 at ONE end, or you can buy a XLR phase reverse plug = easiest).
As I'm often limited for mics, I use a 57 over the snare ~30 degrees aimed slightly toward the edge, slanted a bit toward the hats (unless I have a separate hat mic).
But if you have the time, and even better someone to move the mic around while you listen, it's worth trying different positions/mics to get the sound you like.
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Back in the 80's it was normal to have power toms which were very deep with no so deep bassdrums usually 16".Now it's the other way around,deeper DB's usually 22 to 24" and smaller toms.
Hey Rabitgerry,do you have a pic of that drumhead?
I use 2 mics for the snare,top and bottom,the top for the "meat" and the bottom for the "crack",but the bottom one needs to be phase inversed.The bottom is pointed to the middle of the snares,the bottom is pointed between the rim and the center.
It's rabidgerry BTW :D
Hey MJMP here is a photos, they are from a few years ago but you will see the toms. His setup is different now, more f**king cymbals and he doesn't have that snare anymore as it was awful in my opinion.
I never went down the two mics route, never felt the need to, not now anyways. With that old crappy snare I could never hear the snares so I contemplated micing the bottom back then. His new snare is a tama something or other and it's very nice.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/Photo-0017.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/Photo-0017.jpg.html)
his toms are 14" 16" and 18" his kick is 22"
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/SDC10406C.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/SDC10406C.jpg.html)
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In the end it's what you've got on hand and how much time you have to play around with it to get the sound you want, for me, get a good sounding drum and capture/mike it as best I can. I've never been big on bottom snare miking (good idea if you have the mics), but I didn't allays have a spare mic to do it. Reversing the phase is, as MJMP says, very important, but not all desks have a phase reverse on the channel so you'd need to make a phase reverse mic lead (i.e. swap pin 2 and 3 at ONE end, or you can buy a XLR phase reverse plug = easiest).
As I'm often limited for mics, I use a 57 over the snare ~30 degrees aimed slightly toward the edge, slanted a bit toward the hats (unless I have a separate hat mic).
But if you have the time, and even better someone to move the mic around while you listen, it's worth trying different positions/mics to get the sound you like.
This is generally what I have done to test mic positions. I have read a lot about drum micing over the years.
I know it's general practice to invert the phase of the bottom mic either recording or else later in DAW but I thought you could avoid doing this if you have the bottom mic pointed at a different spot than the top mic? Perhaps not but I'm pretty sure I read that. Not that I have any need to do so.
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Wow RG, cymbal city. I'd try (and hear how it sounds) moving the OHs' to the back corners (of the drum carpet) and focus more over the kit, the cymbals are going to spill into everything (tom mics etc) as well.
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Well i'm used to the sound that 2 mics give on a snare,the bottom one gives more clarity to the sound.
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Well i'm used to the sound that 2 mics give on a snare,the bottom one gives more clarity to the sound.
What mic to you use on the bottom? The same type as on the top? May be I'll try it some time and see how it sounds.
Wow RG, cymbal city. I'd try (and hear how it sounds) moving the OHs' to the back corners (of the drum carpet) and focus more over the kit, the cymbals are going to spill into everything (tom mics etc) as well.
I don't have the over heads there any more. I use X-Y micing technique. They are at the front of the kit also because I can't place them behind the drummer as there isn't enough space. The photo above is about 4 years ago. I'm working on having something hang from the ceiling that will allow me to overhead from the back. Ionly use the OH for cymbals anyways as I close mic.
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I use the audix i5 for top and bottom.
About the phase reverse,the theory is that when you hit the top head of the snare it will first go down when you hit it,so the mic see's or hears a negative phase,but the bottom head,due to the movement of the air inside,will go up in relationship to the bottom mike,so it will see a positive phase,so both sounds are phase inverted and that's why you need to phase invert the bottom mike.If you have a mix console or a DAW with a phase switch you will hear the difference in sound.
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Interesting. I understand with that theory in mind and indeed I have had to flip phase dual micing things before. However I definitely think it is possible to do it in way that does not require phase inversion if pointed at a different spot from the top mic. Isn't distance from the drum a factor as well? Like if they are both mic'd at different distances from the skin they are receiving the sound at two different times?
I dunno may be I made that up and thought I read it.
How do you know so much about this MJMP? You're a guitarist right? But your son drums?
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It works if you don't do a phase inverse,but like i said,different sound.Some frequency's will be enhanced and some notched.
Now to get that effect ( do it in way that does not require phase inversion) i think you will have to put the mic at a serious distance from the snare,but this is also frequency dependend and stuff.Problem is that accoustics is very difficult stuff.I know some things i learned in school back in the days but like most ,the older you get the more you forget :lol:
Yep i'm a guitar player and not a drummer but i was always fascinated with drums,and maybe i passed it on to my son who didn't want to play the guitar,even if i kicked hiss ass :lol:
And when i gave up and got his drumset i started working on it,tuning and stuff,trying different heads etc... and now after 4 years i know more about the drum then the drummers from my band.Downside is that they always bother me with questions about their drum sets.
Also i have a friend that owns a recording studio and i go help him out from time to time,so i picked up a few things here and there.
It's fun you know ,if your children are into music,and you want to help them as much as you can i guess.
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It works if you don't do a phase inverse,but like i said,different sound.Some frequency's will be enhanced and some notched.
Now to get that effect ( do it in way that does not require phase inversion) i think you will have to put the mic at a serious distance from the snare,but this is also frequency dependend and stuff.Problem is that accoustics is very difficult stuff.I know some things i learned in school back in the days but like most ,the older you get the more you forget :lol:
Yep i'm a guitar player and not a drummer but i was always fascinated with drums,and maybe i passed it on to my son who didn't want to play the guitar,even if i kicked hiss ass :lol:
And when i gave up and got his drumset i started working on it,tuning and stuff,trying different heads etc... and now after 4 years i know more about the drum then the drummers from my band.Downside is that they always bother me with questions about their drum sets.
Also i have a friend that owns a recording studio and i go help him out from time to time,so i picked up a few things here and there.
It's fun you know ,if your children are into music,and you want to help them as much as you can i guess.
Ahh well, your dual snare mic method is the "typical" way of doing it, I just thought I'd throw the possibility of not inverting phase out there because I thought I read about it.
I'm going to try it. Mind you I have few channels left I think.
Anyways, you do know a lot about drums. In my band, I'm the only one who know anything :lol: it's odd. I'm the one who sets up the bassist sound, who understands frequencies, how to fit all the sounds together and all that other stuff. I don't mind, but sometimes its hard to communicate with band members who don't have a clue about sound. They can play, and do what you tell them, but technical stuff goes over their head.
MJMP you should start to play drums. You know you want to. I always drum more than our drummer. I'm constantly tapping drum beats with feet or hands. My Girl friend hates it, pisses her off. I love the beat!!! Especially if its fast :banana-upsidedown:
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Here the set up we used on our upcoming http://www.sote.nl (http://www.sote.nl) album.
It's based around my kit with the drummer, in this case adding 2 octobans, a piccolo snare, and most of his own cymbals.
Bassdrum is miked inside (fixed) and outside on the beaterside
Snare is dual miked (top and bottom)
Piccolo snare top only
Toms on top only
Octobans from bottom only
Spaced pair overheads and a middle roommic
Most through some nice tube pre amps :thumb-up:
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Here the set up we used on our upcoming http://www.sote.nl (http://www.sote.nl) album.
It's based around my kit with the drummer, in this case adding 2 octobans, a piccolo snare, and most of his own cymbals.
Bassdrum is miked inside (fixed) and outside on the beaterside
Snare is dual miked (top and bottom)
Piccolo snare top only
Toms on top only
Octobans from bottom only
Spaced pair overheads and a middle roommic
Most through some nice tube pre amps :thumb-up:
I play a lot of gigs where the sound man throws a mic inside the kick like yours. Not the usual cardoid types either.
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Is that a sort of special mounting system for mics insie the bassdrum,never saw that before?
Do you record with the front bassdrumhead?or is it removed to take a pic?
And i'm guessing you route the bassdrum mics through your MB-1 to get that MDRT sound :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Anyways, you do know a lot about drums. In my band, I'm the only one who know anything :lol: it's odd. I'm the one who sets up the bassist sound, who understands frequencies, how to fit all the sounds together and all that other stuff.
Same deal over at my place ::)
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MarshallJMP next time I go over your son has to be there so we can play along some tunes!
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Ok i will ask him :thumb-up:
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Is that a sort of special mounting system for mics insie the bassdrum,never saw that before?
http://www.kellyshu.com/ (http://www.kellyshu.com/)
Do you record with the front bassdrumhead?or is it removed to take a pic?
I record with the front head on, this was indeed removed to take the pic.
And i'm guessing you route the bassdrum mics through your MB-1 to get that MDRT sound :lol: :lol: :lol:
O0
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Hey Peter, Very interesting drum mic mounting, reminds me of Cliffhanger movie LOL, I generally hang the mic clip/mic from the centre (tom mount) post with some gaph (low tech but works :thumb-up: ). Not as elegant though.