ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Non ADA Gear => Rack Gear => Topic started by: El Chiguete on March 13, 2015, 10:24:07 AM
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So sometime ago I experimented on using the EQ on my Lexicon to boost the 80Hz freq after the MP-1 since we all know that the bass freq on the MP-1 is not ¨that¨ good because its not placed in the normal freq range for the bass control on most amps (its actually centered @ 180Hz) and WHAT A DIFFERENCE IT MADE!!! After that I became obsess on wanting to add an EQ that was analog but controled digital to have more flexibillity................ So fast foreward a couple of months and this week I pulled the trigger on a Rane MPE 28 MIDI Programmable Equalizer on Ebay that had no bid AND at the end I was the only bidder and won the auction for just $40 dollars + $20 of shipping!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banana: :banana-dance: :banana-rock: :banana-upsidedown:
So I hope to get it by next week to have a fully analog dry preamp tone + EQ and the add the wet effects thru the RJM Mini Line Mixer :banana-guitar: .
PS:
After I get that I will post what I build to place effects infront of the ADA when I want then and keep the signal pure.
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Ah the big brother of the MPE 14 which is almost the same as the ADA MQ-1 since Rane bought it from ADA.
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mmmmm.....MQ-1...Always on my wish list
Hey El: Nice score man, tell us how you like it :thumb-up:
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Go El, great score :thumb-up:
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Ok so now that I'm waiting to get here (probably like 10 days) I'm starting to think how I will hook everything up and I have a little dilema:
Right now I have the outputs of the MP-1 going in to the DRY channel on the RJM Mini Line Mixer, then from the MP-1 SEND I go in to the RETURN of my Lexicon and from the Lexicon outputs I go to one of the other channels of the RJM to get the WET only delays (I also have other effects running before the wet only part of the rig but that will get explained on the future in another thread)... anyway this meens that if I run the Rane in the loop of the MP-1 I need to have a Y-BOX to: A) go back to the RETURN of the MP-1 so that the outputs have the added eq and B) on the added splitter output go to the Lexicon.
What would you guys advise on this scenario?
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Hey El, the Rane has both XLR and 1/4" RTS jack in and out. So you may be able to use either the 2 inputs or outputs as your "Y" splitter (but both XLR and Jack are balanced so may not work ?) but if the signal is paralleled between XLR and jack it should be possible to "Y" split like this at either the input (if you don't want eq'd signal to Lex) or output (if you want eq'd signal to Lex) using XLR to mono jack (if that's what Lex return is (i.e. jack)), so Male XLR to Jack to "Y" from the input side or Female XLR to jack to "Y" from output side. Another way to pick up eq'd MP1 for the Lex is from headphone out.
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Ok so this is what I totally love this forum because it has opened my eyes to stuff I would know of considered on my MP-1......... by rnolan comment I just realiced that a) the headphone out of the MP-1 can be used for connections in the rack and that b) since it's placed after the MP-1 loop it will picked up anything that is put in the loop, but now I have some questions to understand this better:
1) is the headphone out placed before or after the chorus in the internal signal path of the MP-1?
2) since the headphone out is stereo then the connections (if the previews question is correct) should be as follow: since the MP-1 SEND is mono I should use the loop to add the Rane EQ and then go from the headphone stereo out to the Lexicon jack returns... that way I will also get the MP-1 chorus in the wet delays for example!
3) and if comment #2 is correct then all I have to do is to run a Y cable (1 TRS jack to 2 TS jacks) from the MP-1 headphone out to the Lexicon jack returns
So my only other question is what level is the headphone out of the MP-1 to correctly set it up with the Lexicon? BTW I have meters to show what are the levels in different parts of the Lexicon signal that I can also use to set the level to the same as my conections now I guess.
PS:
Comming back to the Rane, I believe that the correct way to set everything up is that the signal going to the Lexicon should have the EQ correct? Also, yes the connections are balanced but in the manual it says that to have them unbalanced just make a cable that leaves open the (-) connection that would go from Pin 3 of the XLR to the Ring of the TRS. Now the only question is if I can run both outputs of the unit at the same time for the Y options that you mentioned before.
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Hey El, there's so many ways to patch things and even if they aren't "optimal" it helps your understanding :dunno: so always worth a try.
When I first got MP1 I combined it by using headphone out to rockman XL100 headphone in and rockman headphone out to 2 Marshalls (with resistors to lower the voltage).
The MP1 headphone out is after everything like the main outs. I'm not sure if it's tweaked to not be too toppy ? as the idea is you can listen to your MP1 without disturbing anyone (bedroom etc). So it has loop + chorus etc, sound is (much) the same as A/B outs. It's designed to run headphones @ 600ohms or more, the returns on the Lex should be ??k ohms so should be no problem there. IIRC there is a headphone out level control ? which should be independent of the main (front panel) output level which controls A/B out levels (but need to check that). So to get the right gain/balance into the Lex returns use this (hp out) level control and Lex return level settings (pick +4db on Lex). And yes a TRS > TS/TS to connect.
To put Rane in MP1 loop, just use mono TS > TS jack leads into/out of the Rane jack sockets (leave the XLRs out) and adjust for unity gain (no overall volume change from loop in or loop out), use MP1 loop level control and then Rane in/out level controls (which I assume are programmable per Rane patch) to get right for each Rane eq patch.
If you have 4 inputs on your mini mixer, you can have say MP1 A/B outs > chan 1/2 and Lex L/R outs > chan 3/4 and balance how you want. If you adjust the MP1 and Lex patches you can have any balance of the 2. Say you want MP1 with Lex FX but no Lex guitar sounds, make a Lex patch that just has FX and guitar sounds = 0, if you just want Lex (no MP1) make MP1 patch all 0 (just MP1 master set to 0 will do this but best 0 everything so less noise). So that's the 2 extreems, any balance in between can be dialed up with different patches (so do patch pairs to get what you want, remember MP1 goes 1 - 128 = 0 - 127 in many other gadgets so MP1 patch 100 may = Lex patch 99 ?? etc)
Of course you have to split the guitar signal between Lex and MP1 (obviously) for above.
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I just got an answer from Rane (quick feedback!) and they say that I can use both outputs at the same time... so I guess that when it gets here I'll be having some fun experimenting with different ways to connect everything together and will post the results jeje. Cheers!
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Hey El, :thumb-up: enjoy the journey :metal: but as you connect things, just keep gain structure in mind.
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since Rane bought it from ADA.
I never knew that. I have an ME60 I love. Enjoy El Chiguete, RANE makes killer gear.
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yep they did,i found alot of info about this in the ADA papers Jur bought years ago.
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Hey EC
Well the headphone signal is taken just before the front pot signal.So this pot won't have an influence on the headphone volume.
Now you can't actually use this signal for your signal chain since it has a sort of cab sim build in.
As for the mixer connections,i'm going to leave that to the specialist from down under :thumb-up: :lol:
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Really? It has cabo simulation???
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Well sort of cab sim on HP out (as MJMP says, and I suspected but didn't really know), it makes sense (this was probably the begining of the ADA cab sim journey), if you want a head phone out of the pre amp, you want it to be indicative (as close as possible) of/to the main outs which go to power amp/cabs. Since HPs are full range (like studio monitors), there would be too much top end in the "live" patch (as 12"s don't do tops that well), cab sims do a few things, but the main thing is to reduce the highs so it sounds like a (speaker) quad box etc. So for MP1 HP out to resemble the main outs (freqency wise) it needs to "cab sim" a bit.
So for "just" using Lex FX and MP1 HP out for tone, this signal is ready to record with no other cab sim needed. To go to poweramp > cabs instead, you may want to wind in some presence (or tops) depending what variation the HP out causes.
Important to understand what each bit does so you can create the sound/tone you want
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Marshall is there a way to mod that HP out so its without the cab sim for my need???
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Yes just remove C51 and C52.
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Really? That simple? then that will be a great mod to add an additional stereo out with chorus to expand the MP-1 connectivity with other gear!
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Just be carefull with the output level,the headphone out has more output so keep the level pot of headphone down so you won't overload the next in line.
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So it seems the 2 caps are used to wind back the top end (simple but effective). This means you could use the headphone out into line inputs to record/PA etc, I suspect not as good as a full cab sim as they do other stuff as well but would be usable (and cheap LOL). I'll experiment with MikeB and compare to his GCS-3 tone. Again heed MJMP's warning re levels, IIRC the headphone out can do +17dB above internal signal level and max out +12dB (and you want ~+4dB for line level). Lots of patch variations are "possible" but you need to keep the gain structure in mind when you try them so you don't under drive (= more noise) or overdrive (= not nice distortion (clipping)) the next gadget.
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Update: on friday it got delivered to my forwarder in Miami so it's on the way here... can't wait!!!
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So after a few delays its here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I played with it a little bit yesterday so I cant comment on the unit yet, all I know is that I wish the Input and Output where reversed because my other rack gear (MP-1 and Lexicon) have the Input and Outputs on the same order (looking from the back the Inputs are on the right and the Outputs on the left BUT this RANE has it reversed)...
Anyway how would you advise to go play around with it? Should I do somewhat of a wave to on the freqs surrounding the one I want to boost or cut (like if I want to boost 80hz +8db would you boost +4 the freq to the right and left of 8hz and maybe +2 the ones after that) or would you just boost or cut the specific freq you are after?
I guess my question is on a normal amp (Marshall) how wide are the Q that affect surrounding freqs?
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Hey El :whoohoo!: :thumb-up: . In my view you don't need an EQ with MP1/2, but some remark the bottom end eq in the MP1 is in the wrong spot (centre freq). Personally I never had an issue with bottom end in my MP1, but each to their own. Also I'm a minimalist, less is better, each gadget brings noise.
There are some fundamentals that are good to stick to with EQ (and any gadget really). The need to stay unity gain so overall level doesn't change from going through them. With EQ that means if you boost a bit then cut a bit, but this can be adjusted for with the EQ's input and out put levels (if it has them). So that's to preserve your gain structure which is the most important.
Where to boost or cut depends on the sound you are going for. Again less (subtle) is better. What about your tone do you want to improve ? Does it need more bottom end ? (80Hz), does it need more sparkle (8KHz). Remember these will change at different volumes, if you are adjusting for low (bed room) levels, do a loudness curve (boost 80Hz, make a nice "smile" curve to a boost at 8KHz with centre of the curve cutting). At volume, add what you want a bit more selectively, e.g. just add some 80Hz to fatten it up.
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For me I do belive that it needed a bit of bottom end and maybe the RANE MPE 28 is a bit of overdoing it but I got a REALLY good offer for one and in the future I will be abble to use this when tone OCD kicks inn for a particular part! jeje
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No worries, a good eq is always worth having around :thumb-up:
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So I have to make a quick comment: I decided to try out plugging the headphone out (carefully watching the levels) without taking out the two "cab sim" caps that are in there and I have to say that maybe because I'm running a full wet signal -or I'm just deaf- but the delay tone seamed fine to me... Any logic behind it? Maybe since its just taking away the highs if no problem?
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hey El, yeah there's logic behind it. if you make a cab simmed tone and feed that through your FX, it will work fine. So if you take the HP out, it has major tops removed (to emulate what some (all) 12" speakers will do to the sound i.e. not reproduce the highs (coz they cant). When I record with MP2 from its cab sim outs I just use the same FX settings but now they apply to the less top end and then I direct record the signal. No Problem!
Cab sims do a few things.. the first is they tone down the top end to emulate what a 12" speaker can/can't do. (so basically what you get from HP out jack)
Then they have other thingamajigs to emulate different mic orientations etc. And it gets more complicated..Sophisticated etc.
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Well i guess R is right.You will only hear it if you use full range speakers.
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Everyone just learned something new today in this forum! :)
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Well that's the whole point being on a forum :lol:
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Well that's the whole point being on a forum :lol:
Absolutely +1 :thumb-up: along with El's crazy patch notions LOL Hey El, I'm always up for it LOL.
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Absolutely +1 :thumb-up: along with El's crazy patch notions LOL Hey El, I'm always up for it LOL.
WOW I think that will be my legacy! jeje
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Absolutely +1 :thumb-up: along with El's crazy patch notions LOL Hey El, I'm always up for it LOL.
WOW I think that will be my legacy! jeje
Yep :lol:
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Absolutely +1 :thumb-up: along with El's crazy patch notions LOL Hey El, I'm always up for it LOL.
WOW I think that will be my legacy! jeje
Yep :lol:
+1 :lol: :thumb-up: