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Author Topic: Rack Order Suggestions...help??  (Read 10963 times)

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potus2028

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Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« on: Time Format »

Hey guys....been a while since I ran the rack setup...so before I go put it all together again I thought I'd check in and get some i put on putting my components in order. Gear is as follows:

Alesis 3630 Stereo C/L/G
MP-1
Digitech P.O.S. fx unit
Hush Super C
BBE

Ibwant to run the Alesis in "dual mono"....run the guitar into it first on one side as a compressor before going into the MP-1, then back out of the MP-1 into the other side in gate mode. Tried this once with a head and it worked well. I guess I really need input on where the Hush and BBE are best placed. The fx unit has a noise supression circuit in it, but not sure how good it is. So Hush before or after fx unit? BBE last before the power amp? Just been a while....thanks for any suggestions...
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

I suggest using both  sides of 3630 as noise gate,works better and faster.
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potus2028

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

MJMP....isn't a "true" compressor supposed to go before the pre-section? Fugured it made sense to fully utilize the unit....

What about placement of the Hush or BBE in the chain? Thoughts?
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

Well before i had the decimator i used the 3630 as compressor and gate before the mp-1 and as gate after the mp-1,so there's no need for the hush but you can still use it if you want after the 3630.I would place the BBe last in chain.
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potus2028

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

Hmmmm.....so really best to just ditch either the 3630 or the Hush...
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rnolan

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

Hey potus2080, you can put a compressor before or after the MP1 but depends what you want it to do (before needs to be instrument level, after needs to be line level). Short answer I'm with MJMP (why except the gate (which is definitely better after MP1 and good to use only if you play really high gain to tame the MP1 as high gain = high noise (the noise is boosted too))). But this is all very subjective, you should do what sounds good to you...
My basic premise is to keep the signal simple and analogue all the way from Mp1/2 to poweramp/cabs and "mix" into that signal what else you want (e.g. digital effects).
Longer....and my "(quite pedantic) opinions"
MP1 input - I wouldn't put any thing in between the guitar an the MP1 (except a good guitar cable, or radio thingy if you must...(I'm not a big fan of these BTW...)).  Let the MP1 do what it's designed for, take a good guitar signal (millivolts) and turn it into volts with a gorgeous tone.... (also adds eq, stereo chorus and compression (if needed)), I wouldn't put a tuner in between either unless it has a "true" pass though (or it will change the tone (albeit subtlety))
The Alesis (from what you've said and what I quickly googled) is a compressor and a gate (and stereo, designed for PA use I suspect, not guitar ??).  In your set up, IMHO you don't need it as a compressor, the compressor in the MP1 is fine (I get your previous patch using each channel but was with a mono "head", your MP1 is quite different, so I'd leave that idea behind, good idea for those bits of kit, not with the MP1. The Mp1 is not a "head" it's a pre-amp (1/2 a head ? and quite different in many ways to the pre-amp in a head)).
You can get compression in 2 ways in a MP1 (3 ways if you use the loop), first by cranking up the gain and making it distort (basically what it's designed to do) and second by turning on its compressor (which I only use for clean sounds BTW).  Overloading tubes (clipping/tube distortion) also compresses "overloads" the next stage.  You don't need a compressor before the MP1, it will just hamper your picking dynamics and suck tone (the tubes do it all better).
FX is harder with MP1 because you want to keep stereo (so not use the mono loop (except for mono things) and it's serial, don't put digital gear here if you want to keep good analogue signal) or 4 cable method (i.e. chain units together, MP1 A/B out to Eff L/R ins, Eff L/R out to power amp > cabs) and the first thing most digital stereo effects units do is A/D your signal (so now the signal isn't analogue anymore (IMHO, not good!)) better to mix the digital effect(s) with the MP1 analogue signal (use a mixer (which is what I do) or the Art Split mix (or similar) works also but not as versatile. Again, each to their own, but it does sound better this way.
I'd trade the hush and BBE on something more useful, like a good quality small analogue desk with ~8 channels and 4 effects sends (not so easy to find).  Check (http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=117.msg391#msg391) for more.
The hush is another noise gate for super high gain playing (from what I can tell), helps with bad gain structure is another view.
The BBE (from what I can glean) is like an aural exciter for guitar, adds upper harmonics (6khz, 18khz et al) makes you stand out in the mix (I'd loose it and turn your presences knob up = +6 khz).
Anyway my rant, hope it helps Cheers R
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potus2028

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

Hey rnolan:

Thanks for the input - and I get where you're coming from. What I was figuring was, use the 1st side of the 3630 as a compressor/gate...smooth out & bump the signal a bit before sending it to the MP1, as well as using it as a gate right at the guitar input, rather than after the pre-amp section. Then into the MP-1, and back to the other side of the 3630 as just a gate, eliminating some preamp noise. This is kinda what the ISP Decimator does, right? In this setup, the HUSH might be redundant, I understand. If I take the HUSH out of the equation, I can go mono INTO my fx unit, and stereo OUT of the FX unit, into the BBE, then to the power amp. I could also just put the HUSH after the FX unit, in stereo, to clean up any noise from the FX unit (like I said earlier, the fx unit has a noise suppression patch in it, nut I think the unit was kinda noisy, if I remember correctly). My MP1 is an older 1.38 unit, so line level input in the back would be ok for coming out of the first side of the 3630...I would just use the chorus on the fx unit, rather than the MP1 itself. I'm really just a rhythm player...I don't need a shit-ton of fx...just a little chorus for clean patches.

I haven't done it yet, but I plan on doing the 3.666 mod to the MP! soon - so yes, extremely high gain application, and any way I can clean up the noise at any stage is a good thing.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Anyone else have any input.....?

Thanks!

G
« Last Edit: Time Format by potus2028 »
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rnolan

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

From a patching perspective I get where you're coming from but I really think you're over cooking it (hey I recon your on the money and it will work but...) you'll IMHO get a better result by keeping it simple (based on good fundamentals BTW). Don't stuff around before MP1 (other input/gadget maybe but before MP1 does more harm than good, no need for a gate here or anything but a guitar), gates are useful after all the noise is made (after MP1 tubes as they boost the noise as well as the signal and with very high gain....). If you can, mix in the FX to the analogue signal, not pass through them, they will suck your MP1 tone (unfortunate but true).  Try it, plug guit > MP1 > power amp > cabs (crank it up loud!!!).  Then try other options and hear the difference. IMHO all you'd need to add is a little (mixed in) reverb....
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potus2028

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

rnolan:

Thanks agan for the input. I messed around with it a bit last night...moved the 3630 to after the MP1, then fx, then HUSH, then BBE. I think you are right....too much shit going on. Fact is, I've had the 3630 for a long time, and I've never really figured out how to use it properly. I think I'm just gonna ditch it. Go MP1>HUSH>FX>BBE. I'm not is a situation to add the fx into the mix after the fact, as you suggested. The gate function on the FX unit is actually pretty good, from messing around with it a bit yesterday...I think the HUSH will clean up the out signal from the MP1, use it for noise rather than as a gate...then use the gate on the FX unit to take care of any artifacts from the FX. I forgot how much tweaking goes into this crap!!!!  Power amp should be here today, so I'll be good soon.

Gerry
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rnolan

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

Hey Gerry, a suggestion, try with just MP1 > power amp > cabs (nothing else) and set yourself a baseline of good unadulterated analogue signal flow (apart from FX, this should sound awesome), then as you add things you can hear how they change it, bring in FX next coz delays and reverb (mmm reverb) are a good addition (shame you'd have to chain it.. I recon you'll hear the difference when you plug it in compared to not there).  If you really need a gate, the Alesis is probably better than the others, I'd loose the hush and BBE (not that I've ever used them (or had the need to)), but I can't see how they'd really add any value, and the less things you go through the better.

Yeah the tweaking, I did quite a lot with my MP1, these days I'm attracted to to as simple (and analogue) as possible and use only 3 or 4 sounds.  The Art splitter (see other posts) will let you mix in the FX for not lots of $s

Anyway, keen to hear how you go with power amp  :thumb-up:
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potus2028

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

Hey rnolan!

Got the power amp yesterday and got it home....I pulled the 3630 out of the equation....fukking thing is just too complicated for me  :dunno:

I set up the rack with the MP1 first, then through the HUSH (just using the "noise" side of it, really), then to the FX unit (where I can use the gate if needed), then the BBE, then to the power amp. I only have one speaker cable at home  :facepalm: so I was only able to run it mono into my 2x12 for now. I should be getting the rig to practice tomorrow night, where I will unleash it through a Mesa Recto 4x12 AND a Randall Warhead 2x15, together. Can't wait. I'll keep you p[osted.

Gerry
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RandallRG

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

RICH...You are the MAN Buddy! How ya doing? Hope all is well. You (along with others) are ALWAYS around to Help out/Give Suggestions/Opinions Etc. I just wanted to give you some Credit where Credit is due Mate.  :thumb-up:
« Last Edit: Time Format by RandallRG »
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

Ok potus let us know how it goes.
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rnolan

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #13 on: Time Format »

Hey rnolan!
Got the power amp yesterday and got it home....I pulled the 3630 out of the equation....fukking thing is just too complicated for me  :dunno:
I set up the rack with the MP1 first, then through the HUSH (just using the "noise" side of it, really), then to the FX unit (where I can use the gate if needed), then the BBE,
Gerry
Hey Gerry, take it slow... you'll get it sorted.  I'd still encourage you to leave everything out and get that cooking first (just MP1, amp, cabs), then bring them in one by one (FX first) as the can/if add value to your sound.
Cheers Richard
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rnolan

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Re: Rack Order Suggestions...help??
« Reply #14 on: Time Format »

RICH...You are the MAN Buddy! How ya doing? Hope all is well. You (along with others) are ALWAYS around to Help out/Give Suggestions/Opinions Etc. I just wanted to give you some Credit where Credit is due Mate.  :thumb-up:
Hey Steve, thanks, happy to help, though I do rave on... :facepalm: Things are good here, winter coming and cold here in Canberra.
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