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Miscellaneous => Discussions => Topic started by: Chamai on January 13, 2017, 12:24:21 AM

Title: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on January 13, 2017, 12:24:21 AM
it's been a long time all. i was super busy and finally finished moving to our new place and to celebrate  i got myself a lexicon pcm 81,  :banana-trip: to replace my g major. it's being shipped across the country now so i can't wait.

i am gasing for a few more things now, but i gotta wait a bit. i was wondering if you guys use mixers to run your fx's? i will being adding a tri chorus and another delay in the future but i want to run all 3 fx processors in parallel and blend them with the dry signal. i am running a mono rig. i want to hook up all 3 processors into a mixer and then back to the MP1's loop return.


i was looping at the rane sm26 diagram with 3 fx processors connected and back to the loop. my local long and mcquade said there is a used one at another store for $50 bucks but they can't find it!?!?! they are still looking for it. i really don't want to spend $600 for a new one.

i am not good with this stuff so bare with me. my guess is to set all 3 processors 100% wet and mix the levels of each processor with the mixer and back to the return of the mp1.

i am also looking at the alesis multimix8 as that's a more affordable alternative. will this one work?

i do want to run a w/d/w rig again in the future.

thanks guys


Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on January 13, 2017, 07:36:51 PM
Hey Chamai, I've always used a mixer, initially with MP-1 now with MP-2.  I don't use the loop(s).  I have a small 8 ch desk (Yamaha AM802) which has 3 Aux/Fx sends which I run before the poweramp.  In this setup (which is all in stereo) the Fx are set full wet and then mixed at the desk (same as how you'd/I run a PA system).  I've looked at 1RU line mixers to save space (I have the desk velcroed to the bottom of my rack).  Most of the line mixers I've seen have only 1 stereo Fx send so you'd have to Y lead the Fx inputs to get the direct signal into them all.  With my MP-1 rig I used a Quadverb (and still do) and a IPS33 smartshift.  So MP-1 A/B out > ch1 & 2, Aux 1 & 2 to Quadverb L/R in, Aux 3 to IPS33 in.  Quadverb L/R out > ch 3 & 4, IPS A/B out > ch 5 & 6.  And I send the IPS returns also to the Quadverb (via Aux 1 & 2 on its return channels (ch 5 & 6)).
Probably the cheapest option is to use the ART Splitmix (though can do your head in a bit working it out LoL and you need a bunch of insert leads) Also as it's a passive device you loose a bit of signal.
While you can run something akin to this in the MP-1 loop (in mono), it's harder to get the gain structure right, the MP-1 loop is a bit touchy and uses a dual ganged (opposing) pot to adjust the send/ret level (turning send up turns ret down and vis versa).
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on January 13, 2017, 10:55:27 PM
thanks for the write up.

i do plan on using the fx loop of the mp1 and loop of my other amps as well, so thats why i am considering a line mixer

i see people plugging their processors in indivual channels of the mixer. looking at the alesis or samson. i just want some knowledge on how the guy's did it in the 80's by using a 1 or 2u rack mixer.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on January 14, 2017, 05:32:56 PM
With the MP-1 you have a number of basic choices (which of course you can to some extent mix and match).
Put Fx up front
Put Fx in the "serial" Fx loop and adjust wet dry mix in Fx
Put mixer and Fx (full wet) in Loop and adjust wet dry and various Fx levels with mixer
Put mixer (and Fx (full wet)) after MP-1 before poweramp (this is the easiest way to get the gain structure and mix right all the other methods are much more fiddly)
Chain through Fx(s) after MP-1 and adjust wet dry mix in Fx (this is the most common often referred to as the 4 cable method)

The 1 and 2 RU line mixers I've seen only have one stereo Fx send and no way to pan between the L/R sends (so signal will go to both channels, well kind of, some of them have stereo inputs so the L ch will go to L Fx send and R to R Fx send if the input is stereo). If they had more and/or independent Fx sends, I would have bought one by now.

Probably the perfect solution would be to get a rack which can have the mixer rack mounted on top. Rack mount a Behringer Eurorack UB2442FX desk (they come with optional rack mount strips) and fill you boots.  The 2442 has 4 sends (1 & 2 are switchable pre fader (for monitors) and post fader (for Fx)), 3 & 4 are post fader. It also has 4 subgroups which you can use to feed different amp/cab combinations. It also has channel inserts if you wanted to use them for specific things (eg noise gate or compressor).
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: vansinn on January 14, 2017, 10:19:45 PM
Just to notice: Front-mount rack mixers do exist, and can create a smaller rack, plus, especially if playing events, I'd say a rack not having a top-loaded mixer is a lot more practical.

Also, do notice that some of the pedal/effects loopers has programmable send/returns, mix-in and/or dry/wet mixing for each loop, which means they can replace a mixer - while simultaneously allow hooking up pedals, and further will allow wiring the whole shebang in series or parallel in different orders, preset by preset..

Rack mixers, like the Behringer 2U XR12 (http://www.music-group.com/Categories/Behringer/Mixers/Digital-Mixers/XR12/p/P0BI6) and the 3U X AIR XR18 (http://www.music-group.com/Categories/Behringer/Mixers/Digital-Mixers/XR18/p/P0BI8) (more channels and wifi) both comes with build-in effects, network and USB interface, has a multi-bus system for doing send/returns to/fro effects, while the 4U X32 RACK (http://www.music-group.com/Categories/Behringer/Mixers/Digital-Mixers/X32-RACK/p/P0AWN) additionally can do eight effects and can be expanded with more hardware.

While this is indeed very sexy, due to being digital, there's nevertheless a certain latency involved.
The pedal/effects loopers, on the other hand, do the routing/mixing in analog, so latency is by far non existent.

Whether or not latency is important depends on how much it is and how much or little you'll be able to actually feel it ;)
Do note that sound travels ~340 meters per second, so 5 mS latency is roughly like standing 1.7 meters from your rig (340 meters / 0.005 seconds).
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on January 16, 2017, 12:21:45 AM
thanks for the write up guys~

my mp1 is set to instrument level to go infront of my jcm 800 which has no loop. it sounds the best to my ears compared to my my other amps. so only way is use the mp1's loop

this is what i plan on doing, please see figure 13

http://www.rane.com/note108.html
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on January 16, 2017, 02:58:37 AM
Rane SM26, A very interesting and versatile gadget, IIRC Harley was telling me/us about them.  I found a couple in Australia that they wanted stupid money for.  I don't think they make them anymore  :dunno: but for sure you could do what you wanted with one of them.  How did you go understanding all the patching configurations it offers ?
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on January 16, 2017, 10:03:25 PM
Rane SM26, A very interesting and versatile gadget, IIRC Harley was telling me/us about them.  I found a couple in Australia that they wanted stupid money for.  I don't think they make them anymore  :dunno: but for sure you could do what you wanted with one of them.  How did you go understanding all the patching configurations it offers ?

spent the last 2 late night learning about routing and all that. not pro, but have a pretty good idea of what i am looking for. unfortunately for me, the sm26 is the only mixer that can do what i want. ofcourse i can always do custom audio stuff, but that stuff is stupid expensive. my local store found a 50 dollar sm26, but it's broken lol.

i guess i am going to have to ebay one. thankfully, they are not too expensive.

JUST RECIEVED MY PCM81!!!!! :green-banana-smiley-emoticon: have to run it in series for now. going to build a W/D/W rig. i have to say, it smokes my G major. a little over kill for the amount of perimeters i can adjust. i am just messing with the factory presets since i have no idea how to use it yet. i need study the manual.

still keeping the g major for delays only. since i don't do anything fancy with delays, it's more than enough to get the job done. next big purchase is going to be a fulltone tri chorus.

but i am going to still need a mixer.

Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on January 17, 2017, 03:43:39 AM
To stay with a 1 or 2 RU rack footprint the new digital offerings (that Van was talking about) can probably do the job. I haven't researched them as I have no interest in a digital desk/mixer from an audio perspective (well not in the price range I can afford, and even then I'd rather have a valve Neave console...).  However, the digital stuff tends to have endless routing options.  You can also do what you want with a couple of ART Split Mix units (which are not expensive), albeit you'll loose some signal strength (as they are passive) and have to adjust for it. The Split mix takes a bit to get your head around but once you work them out, they offer allot of routing options.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on January 17, 2017, 10:33:36 PM
again, thanks for the write up guys.

going for a w/d/w rig. just test a w/d setup today with the gear i have currently. sounds great.

now i need the money for 2x   sm26's

here's what my signal chain going to be ( all in stereo )

loop send to sm26. channel 1,2 out to pcm81.   channel 3,4 out to tri chorus  channel 5,6 out to (delay)  all 3 processor stereo out to all "in" on 2nd sm26.   left and right out put to mosvalve power amp. then out to 2 1x12 cabs.


i wish there is a cheaper alternative. I MUST have a rack mixer. looks cool. im trying build an overkill 80's rig.

now if i just had the money...

Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on January 20, 2017, 02:02:08 AM
 :whoohoo!: , hope you can find the SM26s you need  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on January 20, 2017, 09:15:12 PM
picking up a custom audio electronics stereo mixer

totally forgot about that brand.

400 bucks US. i will request for a full rack format though
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on January 21, 2017, 12:17:37 AM
Hey Chamai, not quite sure how you plan to plug things in with that gadget  :dunno:   It doesn't have any Fx sends as such just lots of inputs (you could use the expansion out(s) to feed Fx?).  This one is discontinued (http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/mixers/pl-mixers/pl1602/) but would be perfect, it has 2 Aux/Fx sends.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on January 21, 2017, 05:40:06 PM
http://www.customaudioelectronics.com/resources/specs/MiniMixerblockdiagram.pdf

check this out. looks like it will work. what u think?
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on January 22, 2017, 03:49:26 AM
Hey Chamai, cool, that will work.  I didn't realise there's an internal connection from the Mix1 outs to the mix2 1&2 ins which, from the diagram, don't get broken when you plug a jack in  :thumb-up: . It will be a bit fiddly getting all the various gadgets inputs and outputs right but once they are set you'd rarely touch them.  You also will have the Mix2 Exp outs L/R which will be the same signal as is going to the power amp, you could run another amp cab combo or cab sim for recording.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on January 22, 2017, 06:27:27 PM
a lot cheaper than buying 2 rane's

luckily i am a set and forget kinda guy for reverb and stuff. prob a ground control or smething will be good enough for patch changes and etc.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on January 23, 2017, 04:42:56 AM
Hey Chamai, and also very well made by the looks, it should be very transparent and a good solution  :thumb-up: . As I said, the pain (albeit short lived) will be getting the input/output vols and gain structure right on all the different gadgets (some you have knob(s), some you have to scroll and program). Once you dial it in though ..... :whoohoo!: Hey look forward to how it turns out  :thumb-up: :headbanger:
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 02, 2017, 10:33:52 PM
sorry for the late response.

i am doing a little bit of research and i came across the voodoolab ground control GCX

you think this will work? tri chorus will be in series

i was thinking. ADAMP1 send to GCX loop 1. mono out Tri Chorus In. Tri chorus stereo out to loop 2 & 3. loop out of 2 & 3 to PCM 81. loop out of 2 & 3 to channel 1 & 2 of mixer. GCX loop out 4 to PCM 41 and mono out to channel 3 of mixer. GCX loop 5 to PCM 41 and mono out to channel 4 of mixer. Mixer R/L out to power amp and to right and left cabs.

thanks a bunch, sorry for being a noob
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on February 03, 2017, 05:18:20 AM
Hey Chamai, good on ya  :facepalm: I didn't know what a Voodoo thingy did, but now I do.  Yeah you can do it that way, depends how complicated you want to make it. To me it's all much easier with a small mixer with a couple of Fx sends and you won't need so many patch leads (to get from loop to loop).
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 04, 2017, 01:41:58 AM
thank you, but a line mixer from cae is a lot cheaper.

now i just gotta get my hands on a decent delay or delays. my g major gets the job done for now.

moving onto a 16u rack ,

crack gear. it's addictive. i find myself checking my local craigslist for gear all the time.

gasing for a spx 90 for some reason.. 100 bucks.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on February 04, 2017, 04:26:17 AM
Hey Chamai, wow a SPX90, that's a blast from the past.  I have one in my PA rack which I use mostly for snare reverb.  Good mono in stereo out unit  :thumb-up:

Yeah it is addictive  :facepalm: , well you do have a 16ru rack to fill LoL...
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 04, 2017, 06:23:38 PM
yea man, 2 for sale locally. asking 100 bucks each. i really don't need them, but they are kinda cool.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on February 04, 2017, 11:47:40 PM
They were one of the best "affordable" reverbs in their day, and easy to use.  The memory battery probably needs a change.  You could use one for delays and the other for reverb  :thumb-up: although they do all the time based Fxs (but only one at a time).  I loved them back when I was mixing lots of bands and the one I have is still going strong IIRC they predate ADA.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 05, 2017, 11:02:29 PM
i am thinking about buying 2 for delays. my i got my pcm81 dedicated for reverbs already. i just don't get along with the g major for some reason.
they got a pretty damn good sounding chorus too from what ive heard.

mosvalve just crapped out on channel 2. so i gotta get that fixed. really sucks.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on February 06, 2017, 02:39:27 AM
The delays are good I remember  :thumb-up: , as we had them in PAs (couldn't afford one myself back then) I didn't use the chorus.  IIRC the flange was also very good  :dunno: , anyway will do the job well for I recon.
Bummer about the mosvalve  :facepalm: . Hope it's a simple fix.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Iperfungus on February 06, 2017, 03:04:56 AM
i got my pcm81 dedicated for reverbs already.

That's not A reverb...that's THE reverb!  :bow:
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 07, 2017, 11:22:20 PM
The delays are good I remember  :thumb-up: , as we had them in PAs (couldn't afford one myself back then) I didn't use the chorus.  IIRC the flange was also very good  :dunno: , anyway will do the job well for I recon.
Bummer about the mosvalve  :facepalm: . Hope it's a simple fix.


no tap tempo. just read.
im gonna research a bit. tax season is coming up and im going to go broke for awhile. gonna wait for some deals to come. our canadian dollar is shit right now so buying fleabay is not the best idea.

i can live with my g major for now.

as forr my mosvalve. i hope its a simple fix too.  gonna bring it to a tech when i have time and some extra $$$$$.

stupid bedroom door on our brand new place decide to break. had to call a locksmith at night. that set me back a few bucks. what a shitty start of a year.

im really trying to get the best pieces for my setup and use it forever.

on a side note, my mesa cab sounds great with the MP1.  i have always been using my orange loaded with some g12-t75 from the 90's. great speaker for the jcm 800. but with the MP1, it's got this annoying broken sounding high frequency when i use a higher gain setting.  the mesa v30's sound damn smooth. it doesen't sound very old school though.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 07, 2017, 11:32:27 PM
i got my pcm81 dedicated for reverbs already.

That's not A reverb...that's THE reverb!  :bow:

i bought that thing blindly without trying it out. it knew it would be at least half decent hahaha. honestly, i can use the delay and reverb in the same unit and it sounds great. but it doesen't look cool.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Iperfungus on February 08, 2017, 12:22:41 AM
i got my pcm81 dedicated for reverbs already.

That's not A reverb...that's THE reverb!  :bow:

i bought that thing blindly without trying it out. it knew it would be at least half decent hahaha. honestly, i can use the delay and reverb in the same unit and it sounds great. but it doesen't look cool.

It's made for EARS, not for EYES!!!  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 08, 2017, 12:52:06 AM
 :banana-dance:

my dream is too have a legit 80's guitar rig. need pretty lights flashing. hook some lights via midi so everytime i change a patch,  lights start flashing or activates a fog machine. i need 2 floor fans so when im soloing, my hair flies up. AND, only use 1 effect per MULTI FX processor.


question.

anyone know why the new marshall 1960 with g12t75 sounds really scooped compared to the old jcm 800 cabs? my older g12t75 don't have that scooped sound and these were from the early 90's. speaker break-in is one thing, but man, those new ones don't sound right to me. did celestion change the specs over the years?
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Iperfungus on February 08, 2017, 01:12:32 AM
:banana-dance:

my dream is too have a legit 80's guitar rig. need pretty lights flashing. hook some lights via midi so everytime i change a patch,  lights start flashing or activates a fog machine. i need 2 floor fans so when im soloing, my hair flies up. AND, only use 1 effect per MULTI FX processor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukmobha2krY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukmobha2krY)

 :headbanger:

question.

anyone know why the new marshall 1960 with g12t75 sounds really scooped compared to the old jcm 800 cabs? my older g12t75 don't have that scooped sound and these were from the early 90's. speaker break-in is one thing, but man, those new ones don't sound right to me. did celestion change the specs over the years?

Uhm....old JCM800 cabs had different speakers IIRC...V30? Or similar...not sure about the G12T-75 in those cabs...but those was not 300W cabs...

By the way, I had a 1960A, a 1922 and a 1936...all with G12T-75 speakers...and I remember they have that scooped tone since many years.
It is possible that something changed when they moved production to China, but I don't know for sure...

Now I've a Blackstar 2x12 open back cab with Celestion 70/80 speakers and they are more open sounding.
Different grit...like a V30 on steroids...
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: MarshallJMP on February 08, 2017, 07:54:45 AM
JCM800 cabs came in 4 different speaker configs, first they used the G12 65, then the G12M70 and the G12T75.The 1982 model cabs used G12H100 speakers.
And yes those G12T75 from the old cabs sound way different then the new ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opyh-6hn9Hk
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Iperfungus on February 08, 2017, 08:13:39 AM
JCM800 cabs came in 4 different speaker configs, first they used the G12 65, then the G12M70 and the G12T75.The 1982 model cabs used G12H100 speakers.
And yes those G12T75 from the old cabs sound way different then the new ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opyh-6hn9Hk

 :bow: :bow: :bow:
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 10, 2017, 12:50:42 AM
i missed the deal on a g12t65 cab last year. i am regretting it since. never tried the g12t70. seems like the older 75's sound quite close to the 65's.

there is no perfect speaker. gotta keep trying different combinations. i like my jcm 900 mk3 with vintage 30's better than the g12t75's it came with it. my 800 sounds better with the 75's.

i need more unloaded cabs. but so little room.. cab makes a huge difference too.

my mesa is really focused and punchy. orange sounds bigger and boomier. a rule for me is always have castors on the cab. it gives it more clarity and gives me more control on the bass.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on February 10, 2017, 02:35:28 AM
The castors decouple it from the floor so the bass is tighter.  If you ever trip over some Plessy 12U50s, these are "great" guitar speakers  :thumb-up: .  Lorantz (https://www.melbournemusiccentre.com.au/auxpage_lorantz/) now have the old Plessy (Rola)) factory and are doing great things, particularly using hemp (smokin') in the cone mix.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 12, 2017, 03:27:31 AM
The castors decouple it from the floor so the bass is tighter.  If you ever trip over some Plessy 12U50s, these are "great" guitar speakers  :thumb-up: .  Lorantz (https://www.melbournemusiccentre.com.au/auxpage_lorantz/) now have the old Plessy (Rola)) factory and are doing great things, particularly using hemp (smokin') in the cone mix.

those speakers look interesting.

you know, it's hard to get the chance to try different speakers. if you think about. all amp companies really have are the 75's, v30, greenbacks. yea, mesa's got its own speaker, but that's pretty much it. it is expensive to go out and buy different speakers.
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: rnolan on February 13, 2017, 02:32:35 AM
Hey Chamai, their speakers do look interesting, I have an old open back 2 x 12" cab I was thinking to put a couple in and check them out.  As I said, I had a pair of Plessy 12U50s for many years and loved them, one still lives on in Mikes quadbox.  Yeah rolling speakers is allot more expensive than input tubes LoL...
Title: Re: rack mixer for effects
Post by: Chamai on February 13, 2017, 09:14:20 PM
for sure,
i always feel you gotta at least run 2 speakers to get the best out of any speaker. i am always end up having to turn the bass a lot more if i am running 1 speaker. i am pretty happy with what have now.