ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Non ADA Gear => Guitars => Topic started by: rnolan on February 01, 2016, 04:46:42 AM
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When you string your guitar, how many turns around the machine head should you do... ?
So jam last Sat night, 3 songs in, brand new set of strings, popped a top E on my Anderson (with fully floating FR). No spare guitar (strings were brand new :dunno: ) energy was high (hadn't played live and loud with drummer for a while), so yeah energy was high and I was really going for it with gusto... Noooo, popped a top E at the bridge in the middle (well closer to the end) of the solo to wishing well.... As a fail safe, even though I don't really need to from a string break perspective (as have FR lock nut, need >=18 degrees over the nut for proper string break), I make sure there are at least 3 turns (or more) at the machine head on each string. So in this case, I could get enough string through to lock into the "jaws of life" on the FR bridge to get going again.
Apart from throwing these thoughts out for what I do, there is a tendency I've come across with the improvements in machine heads (eg locking nuts, machine heads etc) to have as few turns as possible... Bad idea in my view...
When I learn't to build guitars many years ago, I was taught first turn over the top, then 3 underneath (which clamps the string where it passes through the machine head hole and reduces slippage...) and also creates decent string break (on an angled peg head). But for FR owners, it also gives you a repair path :thumb-up:
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I always do 2-3. I was taught that in a book I have on guitars and just have always went by this. Doesn't really matter so much to me now as most of my axes now have locking trems.
Here is food for thought, any convinced in the locking string tie? you know this one?
http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/images/restring/guitar-string-wrapping.jpg (http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/images/restring/guitar-string-wrapping.jpg)
I was never convinced by this if I am honest. I also found I broke a lot of strings trying it.
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I agree 2 or 3 (more 3 than 2)I have met Billy Sheehan on Masterclass, he explained us that when he strings his bass he detune each strings, stretch it as a string on a bow, redo it twice, and he doesn't need to tune during the whole show... Just check how bad he is threatened his strings.
For FR At least 3 turns and more on high strings because most of the time it breack on trem
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I actually stretch my strings a lot more than two or three times. I do them until they stop going out of tune. Again that's what I was taught. It amazes me how many idiots do not stretch strings.
I had to teach our bass player that literally 3 months ago! And I still think he is not doing it correctly! He pretends he has done it right though and then I say "well why the hell do you keep going out of tune?"
:lol:
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actually stretch my strings a lot more than two or three times. I do them until they stop going out of tune.
Yes but your locking nut doesn't work !
Hey, Rg "have you tried to drill"... ok, nevermind !
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I'm gonna play "devils advocate" on this one ...
http://bolesblogs.com/2010/07/31/the-in-situ-strings-stretch-technique-and-how-to-not-stretch-your-guitar-strings/ (http://bolesblogs.com/2010/07/31/the-in-situ-strings-stretch-technique-and-how-to-not-stretch-your-guitar-strings/)
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actually stretch my strings a lot more than two or three times. I do them until they stop going out of tune.
Yes but your locking nut doesn't work !
Hey, Rg "have you tried to drill"... ok, nevermind !
cheeky :nono:
:lol:
I do have like 12 guitars though, it's only one that has a broken locking nut :whoohoo!:
I'm gonna play "devils advocate" on this one ...
http://bolesblogs.com/2010/07/31/the-in-situ-strings-stretch-technique-and-how-to-not-stretch-your-guitar-strings/ (http://bolesblogs.com/2010/07/31/the-in-situ-strings-stretch-technique-and-how-to-not-stretch-your-guitar-strings/)
OK DR interesting read but utter bullshit IMO, I realize you're playing devils advocate here :thumb-up:. Well it's BS in regards to the regular way of stretching you strings. Most of those other ways I would never dream of doing, they just look bad never mind be bad. If this held any wait I would break strings all the time for doing the "Bow method" that Tomy mentioned. I broke a string for the first time in about 6 years a year ago. And the reason for it was purely because the saddle had corroded and gained a rough edge and the string was getting cut into at the saddle, so nothing to do with string stretching technique.
I stretch my strings above the pickups and pull forward, to about 3-4 times the regular strings height. I repeat until the string stops going out of tune. I do this for each string.
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The "bow method"... why not throwing an arrow ! :lol:
I just stretch a little. But you know ... It works for me and i do not breack more strings like you guys. But I'm open to try another way to string my axes.
Answering this post, I like having longer on my strings.
BTW Destruction kicks ass !
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Locking string tie: I do something similar which I picked up from the guitar building course. We built an acoustic each no no locking nuts etc, anyway it gives a similar result to the pic. So I use at least 4 turns, the first above the string (where is protrudes from the hole) and then 3 under, this clamps the string and reduces slip (not as necessary with modern machine heads) ie string getting pulled back through the hole. I also bend the end at >90 degrees before I cut them off, helps prevent winding slip over the core (more modern strings are not as susceptible but I do it anyway). On my FR guitars, this isn't necessary but it's what I done for over 35 years..
Stretching strings, I give them a little tug over the PUs while gently placing left hand on the string around the 7th, more to bed them in, then I tune and give them a decent bend again around 7th/9th, lock them off (on FR) and then play them a bit with lots of bends, fine tune and they stay in tune unless the weather/temp changes (I find I sometimes have a slight fine tune when we go from Canberra (700 meters)) to the coast (sea level). One of the things I like about the DR tight wounds I use is they stay in tune from the get go.
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No way, I an extreme string stretcher. Well it works for me, I really can't risk strings going out of tune once I've locked them at the nut though.
How I measure how much I want to put on around the tuning post is by going two machine heads away from the one the string is actually goin on to. So say I am winding on the low E, I bring the string length up to the D tuning post, then snip, then start winding.
How do you guys measure the amount you want?
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I string my guitars backwards. :banana-upsidedown:
Well, what I mean is I only cut my strings once, not twice like one would for FR style trems. To do that, I insert the string through the tuning peg first, then pull it all the way to the bridge. Using a predetermined reference point there, I make that one cut and install the string into the locking saddle. In my case, the "cut" point is at the end of the locking screw on my JT580LP bridges. Now when I tune up, there is only 1 turn of the string around the peg; no more, as I won't need more this way. The string "balls" are left exposed up at the tuning pegs on the headstock. Pretty colors up there. lol
I don't have a real reason for doing it this way. Just to be different? :dunno: But I've been doing it like that since before I can remember with the guitars I have now.
Then, the normal stretching everywhere up and down the fretboard several times. I "bow" them at the 12th, then play bends with them one at a time at all the other fret markers before locking the nut down and fine tuning.
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I string my guitars backwards. :banana-upsidedown:
Well, what I mean is I only cut my strings once, not twice like one would for FR style trems. To do that, I insert the string through the tuning peg first, then pull it all the way to the bridge. Using a predetermined reference point there, I make that one cut and install the string into the locking saddle. In my case, the "cut" point is at the end of the locking screw on my JT580LP bridges. Now when I tune up, there is only 1 turn of the string around the peg; no more, as I won't need more this way. The string "balls" are left exposed up at the tuning pegs on the headstock. Pretty colors up there. lol
I don't have a real reason for doing it this way. Just to be different? :dunno: But I've been doing it like that since before I can remember with the guitars I have now.
Then, the normal stretching everywhere up and down the fretboard several times. I "bow" them at the 12th, then play bends with them one at a time at all the other fret markers before locking the nut down and fine tuning.
I used to leave the ball ends on as well :) dunno why. Dunno why I stopped either :dunno:
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The DRs round core has a flattened area past the nut to give the wraps something to grip, also at the ball end they seal the wraps (like solder them but not solder) on the wound strings again to stop wrap slip so they need to be cut off just after the over-wrap to pick this up as that's what goes into the jaws of life (FR), so they have to be cut at both ends to make maximum use of the design. They also wind more metal into the smaller gauge (tight fit). They need hardly any stretching, sound great straight up, stay that way for ages and maintain tuning really well the whole time, really good string life, not trying to do an ad for DR but they are by far the best strings I've ever used.
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Hey Gang,
I'll just add my 2 cents to this thread FWIW.
The idea of 3 winds around the post, is something I only apply to non-tremolo guitars. The idea being that it winds the string down lower on the post to give it a break over the nut. On a tremolo equipped guitar, all that changes and varies with the type of tremolo being used. The 3 winds on the string post is supposed to give you the best clarity and tone on a hard-tail guitar, but consider this: the actual tone comes from the string between the nut and the bridge, since that is where all your vibration and notes come from.
On a non-locking floating tremolo, (vintage Strat style), I use the original split-shaft tuners as locking tuners by simply cutting the string 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 past the post, inserting the end into the center hole, and then bend the string at the top of the hole and wrap it around the bottom of the split. I tune it up from there with only 1/2 to 3/4 of a string wind around the post. That may seem to be too precarious as far as stability, but it gives me the least amount of tuning issues when using the tremolo. (All of mine are floating BTW). I use a string stretcher made by Fender, on every guitar I re-string regardless, and add a small drop of Selmer liquid grease in the nut slot of a regular bone nut. I get very good results on my stock Strats with this method. On Strats that have the Schaller type tuners, I replace those with Locking tuners that will fit into the peg holes. If they are staggered posts, then I have to remove the string trees, or that will cause tuning issues when I use the tremolo.
On a FR equipped guitar, it really doesn't matter how many winds you have on the post. You can wrap the entire extra string around the post if you want to, so that if you break a string at the bridge, where it usually happens on my FR, then you can unlock the nut, and unwind as much string as you need to get it back in the clamp at the bridge, tune it up, lock the nut, fine tune it and go! As I mentioned before, all your sound and action is happening between the nut and the bridge. If you choose to use a lot of string length on the post, just guide the string as you wind it with a string winder, down the shaft, then back up in an even layer so that it won't cause tuning issues on the initial tune-up. Once you lock the nut down, it doesn't matter if you have 3 or 30 winds on the post, it makes no difference on a double locking system.
As for the locking string tie at the post, I used to do that on the plain strings of my guitars a long time ago, but I stopped doing it because it really doesn't make any difference to an steel string guitar. I believe the only guitar that matters on is a Classical guitar because the plain nylon strings will tend to slip as well as stretch when they are new. That's where I believe that technique came from. As for the wound strings, they will catch the windings on the edge of the post hole and grip as they begin to tighten and stretch. so it isn't necessary for those.
That's what works for me, but to each their own. I say, if what you're doing works for you, then you're doing it right, if not, then it's time to try something different :thumb-up:
Harley 8)
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I don't pay much attention to the number of winds, as long as each of the non-wound strings has the string passing over the loose end, locking it in with tension.
Locking tuners are fantastic, you can get away with a half turn on a non tremolo guitar :thumb-up:
FWIW: I do use the locking tie method at the bridge of my classical - no ball ends ;)
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I was always told the winds where important to get the string going down nicely over the nut so string trees aren't doing all the work.
I have some tuners on one axe that don't need trees at all as they are height adjustable for having the string go over the nut properly.
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I was always told the winds where important to get the string going down nicely over the nut so string trees aren't doing all the work.
I have some tuners on one axe that don't need trees at all as they are height adjustable for having the string go over the nut properly.
Hey RG,
The number of string windings ARE important on a guitar with non-locking tuners, and a standard nut, but it makes no difference with a locking nut. Once you clamp down the strings at the nut and lock them, you could (theoretically), cut off the strings behind the nut, and it won't affect your tone. Of course, no one would want to do that. I'm just illustrating my point.
The other tuners are the staggered tuners I mentioned, that you don't want to use string trees with, because that will cause tuning issues if you use the tremolo. I have a set of Sperzel locking tuners like that on my 1980 STRAT, and one of my 2004 Showmaster guitars. Even the Ezy-glide string trees caused tuning issues, so I removed them. No issues now.
Harley 8)
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off topic but: I've been putting Tusq self-lubricating nuts on all my guitars lately. It made a big difference with my Wilkenson trem guitars, they're much easier to keep in tune now.
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I was always told the winds where important to get the string going down nicely over the nut so string trees aren't doing all the work.
I have some tuners on one axe that don't need trees at all as they are height adjustable for having the string go over the nut properly.
Hey RG,
The number of string windings ARE important on a guitar with non-locking tuners, and a standard nut, but it makes no difference with a locking nut. Once you clamp down the strings at the nut and lock them, you could (theoretically), cut off the strings behind the nut, and it won't affect your tone. Of course, no one would want to do that. I'm just illustrating my point.
The other tuners are the staggered tuners I mentioned, that you don't want to use string trees with, because that will cause tuning issues if you use the tremolo. I have a set of Sperzel locking tuners like that on my 1980 STRAT, and one of my 2004 Showmaster guitars. Even the Ezy-glide string trees caused tuning issues, so I removed them. No issues now.
Harley 8)
Hey Harley,
I should have mentioned I was referring to "non" locking nut guitars, of course it doesn't matter if you have a locking nut.
I was thinking of one of my strats that has a bone nut and locking tuners when I mentioned that the string winds are important.
The tuners you talk about are different from the ones I have. The ones I have are height adjustable. They do the same job as staggereds though it's just you set the height yourself. I don't like them if I am honest and I don't think they do f*ck all for tuning stability either (they lock as well).
off topic but: I've been putting Tusq self-lubricating nuts on all my guitars lately. It made a big difference with my Wilkenson trem guitars, they're much easier to keep in tune now.
I nearly got a tusq nut on my strat that the guitar witch doctor I know was resurrecting for me, but he ended up just putting in bone one. It was to replace a botched LSR nut that some d*ck head installed on the axe. I thought the guitar was a goner but this new guy I go to to sort my axes seems good. He is the one sorting my theaded locking nut at the minute. I've heard good things about the tusq stuff. On the same axe with the bone nut I have the string saver graphtec saddles. The give endless amounts of harmonics and tone! Awesome shit!
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Hey RG,
I've never seen tuning machines like the ones you are describing..."adjustable height" locking tuners. :???:
Personally, It doesn't sound like a good idea. From an Engineer's point of view, if you over-engineer something, you are inviting problems and complications. I feel the best solutions are always the ones that are kept to the simplest forms, and this definitely applies to mechanical physics. As for any locking tuners, I would never have more than 1/2 to 3/4 of a string wrap around the post. This is because the string has nothing to bind on in the wrong position, so it will come to rest in the original tuned position after using the tremolo bar. Of course it also helps if the side of the string post is polished smooth so there are no rough surfaces for the string or it's windings to catch on. A Dremel tool with a buffing pad and a bit of metal polish can fix that.
Harley 8)