ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Non ADA Gear => Amps => Topic started by: Harley Hexxe on August 16, 2021, 01:55:25 PM
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Hey Gang,
As a few of you know, I've been a fan of Fender amps since my early teens, and have owned and sold enough of them to stock the showroom of GC twice over.
I've still kept a few of my old Fenders that I liked the most, which would be my 1973 Vibrolux Reverb, Two Twins, and 1971 & 1972, and a 400PS with three Fender cabs to go with it, loaded with JBL's and Altec speakers.
On the more up-to-date side of Fender, I purchased a NOS Fender Cyber-Deluxe with a foot controller and paired it up with my '73 Vibrolux, which is one of the baddest sounding tone rigs I own. (Very happy with that one).
Last September, I drove down to West (by God) Virginia and bought a Cyber-Twin SE, just because I've been curious about having one and what kind of tones I could coax out of an amp like that.
As I stated in one of my posts about this amp, I wasn't impressed with the factory programmed sounds that were installed in it because they were thin and wimpy sounding, but I did manage to figure out how to make it sound more like a boss Twin should sound like by flipping one of the speakers out of phase. I've only had this amp out and messed with it about four times since I bought it.
Saturday, I was watching a Youtube video by Ragdoll, and listening to the guitar tone on a song called "Break You." Well, I pulled out the Cyber-Twin and did a little editing, and Wham Bam Thank you Ma'am, I nailed that tone in about 15 minutes! That rig was sounding SOOOOOO good, I wanted to keep playing all night! I had to keep the Master Volume down around "1" because it was getting late, but had I cranked it up, I would have been peeling the plaster off the ceiling! That amp can ROAR!
I think I'll be keeping this one. A little more time tweaking, and jamming on it, and it will be a killer combo amp that can hang with the best of them.
I'm also thinking about taking the direct outs from this amp, and plugging them into my '71 & '72 Twins. What a rig that would be :whoohoo!:
Harley 8)
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Nice! Glad you're diggin the Cyber Twin. I monkeyed around with one at a pawn shop and fount it quick/easy to edit too, but too damn loud to sound 'full' in the store. Need to turn it up past 0.5
Haha
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Hey Harley :whoohoo!: :thumb-up: . I like your idea with the direct outs into the 2 twins, it's going to be loud :metal:
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Nice! Glad you're diggin the Cyber Twin. I monkeyed around with one at a pawn shop and fount it quick/easy to edit too, but too damn loud to sound 'full' in the store. Need to turn it up past 0.5
Haha
Hey Dante,
It is easy to dial in tones and such with the amp, what gets a bit tricky is when you try to dial in the effects. As I mentioned before, it's not as flexible as the Cyber-Deluxe in that respect. There are limited tweaking choices in the Twin when it comes to effect combinations. You can add and tweak single effects in this amp no problem, but combinations are preset and you can't do too much about that. However, I'm pretty sure I can live with that since there is also an effects loop that I can add effects pedals to. (Kind of defeats the concept behind the Cyber-Twin to begin with, doesn't it)?
Hey Harley :whoohoo!: :thumb-up: . I like your idea with the direct outs into the 2 twins, it's going to be loud :metal:
Hey Richard,
Getting loud is only part of the idea. The amp itself is already louder than a battlefield, but the idea I have about it is because of the stereo effects. You see, How much stereo separation can you get with a single 2x12 combo? But if I take the Direct outs and run each one to it's own amp, and separate them, that would give effects like ping-pong delays some air space to move through!
I already experience this with the Cyber-Deluxe and Vibrolux rig. It's cool as heck when you have a good tone going that seems to fill the room at a volume that is not overbearing, but then, when you add stereo effects like chorus and/or delays, you almost "feel" the movement through the air. I place those combos on either side of the drum riser, and that's more than enough to play with spatial dimensions.
Harley 8)
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Hey Harley, either side of the riser will sound awesome :headbanger: . Decent space between amps (well speakers really) with a stereo set up really enhances the sound, if the cabs/speakers are to close they couple and also phase cancel etc. Sounds like a great buy, lots of fun to be had :whoohoo!:
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That reminds me of Pete Townsend playing with two Twins onstage - pointing at his face, like monitors. They were set into the floor and tilted back. I can't imagine why he's friggin deaf. :crazy:
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Hey Harley, either side of the riser will sound awesome :headbanger: . Decent space between amps (well speakers really) with a stereo set up really enhances the sound, if the cabs/speakers are to close they couple and also phase cancel etc. Sounds like a great buy, lots of fun to be had :whoohoo!:
So true Richard,
It is fun with that setup using two amps, but this setup will have three amps. I'm wondering how that will affect the stereo spread, with one amp in the center now. It'll be interesting when I try it just jamming alone, but it'll be a different matter in a band situation. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Definitely a great buy, both of those amps. I suppose since you are paying for the Fender name, they are going to have to sound good. :thumb-up:
That reminds me of Pete Townsend playing with two Twins onstage - pointing at his face, like monitors. They were set into the floor and tilted back. I can't imagine why he's friggin deaf. :crazy:
Dante,
When did Pete Townsend use Twins? I always heard he preferred British amps. I know when I first saw The Who, he was playing through HiWatt stacks, then later, when I saw them in '83, he was using Marshalls.
It's alright though, hearing is over rated :amaze:
Harley 8)
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It was a solo tour, back in the 90s. He had center stage...I'll look for it
I can't find a picture of it, maybe it's a video. Here's a pic of him playing through some Vibroluxes in the early 2000s
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Hey Dante,
I hate to tell you this Bro....those are not Vibroluxes. I think those are Vibro-Kings. A Vibrolux only has two 10" speakers and are not as tall as those. IIRC, those have three speakers in them, although they look like they would have four like a Super Reverb. Those were some of the ultra high end Fender tube amps they made in the 90's
But it IS weird seeing Pete with Fender amps. It kind of looks like he was going for the same kind of tone-vibe that Keith Richards and Jeff Beck were getting when they grouped four Fender Combos together.
Harley 8)
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You would know better than I
I totally refer to your opinion on all things Fender, no worries. That's just how it came up in search results, I take no responsibility for such claims, haha. I too am weirded out by Pete (aka, the guy who knew Jim Marshall personally) with a Fender lineup.
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IIRC he used Boogies for studio but not on stage as they are hard to dial in. All the pics I've seen of Pete (which is not that many I spose) he was using Hi-Watts, not my favourite sounding amp.
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You would know better than I
I totally refer to your opinion on all things Fender, no worries. That's just how it came up in search results, I take no responsibility for such claims, haha. I too am weirded out by Pete (aka, the guy who knew Jim Marshall personally) with a Fender lineup.
Thanks Dante, I have a lot of experience with Fender amps beginning in the early 70's
Jim Marshall made it his business ( literally), to get to know all of the high profile guitar players in the 60's, of course, to help him promote his amplifiers.
@ Richard: When I first saw The Who, Pete was playing through two Hi-Watt stacks. They were louder than F@*K! I think maybe that's why Robin Trower used them when he was with Procul Harum. Pete was using four Marshall stacks when I saw him in the 80's...I still say hearing is over-rated :crazy:
Harley 8)
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Loudest amp(s) I ever heard were Billy Thorpe and the Aztecs (1970's), Strauss (Warrior) amps made in Melbourne, 6 x KT 88s allegedly, Billy had 3 stacks, I was trying to crunch up the program leaflet and shove it in my ears. The gig was at Newcastle (Australia) university in a lecture theater (all concrete). (https://www.ozvalveamps.org/strauss.htm).
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Loudest amp(s) I ever heard were Billy Thorpe and the Aztecs (1970's), Strauss (Warrior) amps made in Melbourne, 6 x KT 88s allegedly, Billy had 3 stacks, I was trying to crunch up the program leaflet and shove it in my ears. The gig was at Newcastle (Australia) university in a lecture theater (all concrete). (https://www.ozvalveamps.org/strauss.htm).
You should get a load of my 400PS. There was never a bigger production tube amp anywhere. 6 x 6550's with one 6L6 for a driver.
Harley 8)
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Harley, that 400PS looks like a beast, just had a look at the schematics, it seems you need to hook speakers to each of the outputs to get the full output, or am I wrong? Looks like each jack has a switch that switches in a pair of 6550 tubes. Never saw a design like this. And like you said a 6L6 to drive a transformer that acts as a phase inverter.
That was interesting to look at, you learn something new every day ;D
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Hey MJMP,
Yes Sir! That is correct. Each speaker output delivers 145 watts RMS for a combined total of 435 watts when all three cabs are plugged in. I have the cabs for it too. One is loaded with 2x15" JBL D140 speakers, the other two cabs are loaded with 2x12" JBL D120 in one, and 2x12" Altecs G-17 in the other. Two of the cabs are the mid-sized Fender cabs which look like a slightly smaller 4x12 cab, but only containing two speakers each. the third cab is a smaller 2x12 cab from 1965 that is about the size of a Twin Reverb. This cab also has the tilt-back legs that are on a Twin so I normally use it as a side fill cab.
This circuit design was created for Fender by Bill Hughes, (designer of the Ampeg SVT), and it is one HEAVY amplifier head that weighs in just a little more than a vintage Twin Reverb by itself! There are a pair of massive transformers located at either end of the chassis with the power tubes in between them and the preamp tubes are lined up along the back of the chassis.
On the front panel, where you would find what Fender called the "Normal" channel, on this amp it is called the "Bass" channel. You have the same controls as you would find on the traditional Normal channel, Volume, Treble, Middle and Bass, but instead of a Bright switch, there is a "Deep" switch. The Vibrato channel has the same controls found on any Twin Reverb of the era with a Master Volume, including Reverb and Vibrato.
I've only used this amp at a couple of outdoor Hippie Festivals, and it's loud enough to bury the whole band. The only way I could describe the tone of this amp would be sort of like a Twin, but on Mega-steroids!
Harley 8)
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Thanks Harley for the explanation.
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Okay Gang,
Rather than start a new thread, I'm just going to post it here and continue this one since the topic is related.
So....I was getting bored with the limited kind of tone/effects settings with each of the Cyber amps, and I decided to try something different. Don't get me wrong, they both have killer tones and some really great effects built into them, but I wanted more. (there's a surprise).
I began wondering what would happen if I tried to combine my Cyber-Twin, and Cyber-Deluxe/Vibrolux rigs together, and could I control them from the same foot controller? Yes I can :thumb-up:
I had to use an A/B/Y pedal to get the results I wanted, and I had a real issue with the grounding on that, but I fixed that today and here's what I came up with:
Cyber-Twin in the center for the core of my guitar tones, and Cyber-Deluxe/Vibrolux on either side of it with stereo effects. The results are much better than I expected. Huge guitar tones with huge effects tones on either side.
The pedalboard is not the final layout for this configuration, I'll probably switch places with the tuner and the A/B/Y switch, and that should make things easy and neat once I get the right patch cable made up for it.
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Hey Harley, way to go my friend :whoohoo!: . Looks like a killer rig, and quite small (considering) footprint. I like your thinking :headbanger:
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Hey Richard,
It IS a killer sounding rig! Either rig sounds good on it's own, but combined it's like a whole different dimension just opened up.
Now....to add a couple of ADA rack rigs to this mix and see what I get. I know I'll never be able to use a rig that size in a club, but that's what studios are for >:D
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That looks killer, I'm sure it sounds great too
I would never carry 3 combos around, but hey...studio time!
That foot controller looks pretty cool too, btw
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That's something I NEED to hear, so start recording ;D
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@Dante,
It works really well with the three combos close together like you see in the picture. but if I took this rig onstage, I'd have the CD and Vibrolux spread out to either side of the drum riser. You can hear the stereo effects moving very clearly like this, but spread out it would be even bigger. The CT would stay in the center.
That's the Fender MIDI controller for these amps btw, and as you can see it's a bit wider than a Twin.
@MJMP,
I'm going to try to get something tracked on Cubase, but I'm having a few issues with the version I upgraded to. I think I need some tech support to sort out the weird issues I'm having. You use Superior Drummer with yours don't you?
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Yes I use Superior Drummer sometimes. Why?
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I'm using EZ Drummer2 with mine and it worked well, up until a month ago.
Now when I go into a project and try to track some more, the drums don't come through. For whatever reason which I can't explain, it seems all of the inputs are disabled. I can't track anything, I can't restore them. It sees the Focusrite, and even when I enable it (again), it still doesn't accept it.
I don't know what happened to it :dunno:
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Ow don't know haven't used EZ drummer in quite some time and SD is quite different from EZ.
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It's not just EZ Drummer, it seems all the inputs are disabled for everything in Cubase. It started with EZ Drummer, and then spread to all the other inputs.
I'll call tech support about this issue and see what is going on with Cubase. To be honest, Cubase is proving to be a bigger headache than it's worth, and I've dropped a pretty good bit of money on it to upgrade to Artist 11, and I'm about ready to chuck it in the trash can.
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Hey Harley, lots of empathy here my friend. Years ago I updated my protools to 6.4 so it would work with WinXP, it took 2 full days of trawling the Avid site to finally make it work :facepalm: , then the main board died later :crazy: . And 6.4 was the last version that worked with the Digi 001 I/O (and won't work with non PT interfaces). When I bought the presonus I/O it came with studio one install. When I finally got around to trying it out the demo recordings wouldn't work with my Win7 laptop (way too many tracks and just shat itself trying). So imported some .wav tracks from earlier PT recordings only to discover you have to pay more money to get any effects etc. and I didn't like the interface anyway.
Hopefully they can help you get it working, but it just should be that hard....
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No Richard,
It shouldn't be that hard. especially for the price.
I knew there would be a learning curve going into it, but the thing shutting off it's inputs on it's own after not having been turned on for a month or two wasn't something I was prepared for.
The tutorials are for the most part, about as useful as boobies on doorknobs. Ex; Take this loop and mix it with this drum groove and patch this synth element in... WTF?!? That isn't how musicians make music! That's how non-musical people make noise. A musician plays his or her instrument and lays down track after track until they get the sounds they are looking for. That's all I want to do.
Oh...I'm ranting.
I'll shut up now
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
When I got my first version of Cubase, I made a few songs like that and thought to myself "how many other idiots just put together the same exact pattern and called it a song?"
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Hey Harley, I started with Pro Tools on a Win98 box. What I liked about it was I could use the mixer window and just use it like a digital tape machine. I know it could do lots more like loops, copy paste in the wav window but I never bothered with it. I was just replicating how I'd always recorded with tape machines. An used a small desk for all monitoring etc. so I never had latency issues when tracking.
It was a big learning curve to configure it though as back then the HDDs were small and not always fast enough (min 7,200 rpm drives). Nd getting all the buffers tweaked just right took a while... Now I'm ranting LoL.
Hope you get it sorted soon. Sounds like you just want to use it similarly how I used PT.
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Richard,
That's exactly what I want to do with any DAW that I might try to use. Use it as if it were a couple of tape machines with a mixing desk. And just simply record to it. all the loops and syncopated beats and whatever, you can keep that. It's not how music is made,(or was made). Pre-recorded sample sounds of drums triggered on a keyboard or spitting in a mike isn't how drums were ever recorded.
Of course, at work, I hear what kids are listening to these days. It either sounds like tribal chanting at times, or protesters at a demonstration rally, with some tinkling sounds and a spastic percussionist in the background, who could have been someone's two year old that they recorded, or else it sounds like some guy with a blanket over his head that's soaking wet rhyming a bunch of expletives, but not really saying anything at all. Yeah, I wear earplugs.
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Okay Gang,
Here we go again...I pulled the trigger on another Cyber Deluxe. I found one at a decent price in Toledo and bought it.
It's in good shape, and works as well as my original one with the exception of the numeric display, it seems that may have a small issue with one or two LEDs in it, but that's no biggie. Some of you reading this may ask why did I want a second one of these? Simple. I want to take the Vibrolux out of the picture with the expander function and use the power amp and speaker section of this amp for the Right Effects channel. My Vibrolux will be 50 years old next year, and it doesn't need to be going out on the road anymore. Besides that, the last time I had it re-tubed was in the mid 90's, so it's getting close to needing some fresh bottles.
There is another issue that I discovered with these amplifiers which surprised me because this condition exists in the one I just bought as well as the one I've owned since it was new. The way I'm supposed to be able to make the stereo effects work is like this: Connect an instrument cable from the Expander output of the main amplifier to the Effects Return of the auxiliary amplifier, and use the level control on the main amp to balance out the stereo level. The main amplifier will have the Left channel of the stereo effects, and the Right channel will come from the auxiliary amp. The problem here is that no sound comes from the auxiliary amp when I plug into the effects return.
Yes, I did try different cables, ...no help
I did plug a dummy plug into the Send jack to see if the loop needed to see two plugs to work,...no help
I tried a TRS cable, ...no help
Then I reversed the process. I connected the Expander of the "new" one, out to my original CD, and the same thing happened. (Or didn't happen to be accurate).
This tells me there may be a design error in the effects loops of these amps? I contacted Fender about this today, and it sounds like they don't want to hear anything about a discontinued amp like this. Great company eh? Anyway, I believe something is wired wrong in the effects loop that won't uncouple the preamp from the power amp and let it work that way.
MJMP, if you're reading this, do you have any thoughts on this one please? An effects loop should be a relatively simple circuit I would think.
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Hey Harley, the connections (expander and both the send and return) are all balanced TRS (https://www.manualslib.com/manual/562591/Fender-Cyber-Deluxe-Dsp-7.html?page=17#manual) so might work with a half insert of a mono jack :dunno: or better, use a TRS to TRS lead (But you said you tried a TRS cable :dunno: .). From my reading of it, it should do just what you want with switch set to stereo right out. And generally (as I'm sure you know), the serial fx loop is switched by a plug in the return, however, is there a loop on/off switch/footswitch that toggles the loop?
Have you tried expander TRS to (any) poweramp in (or even a mixer channel) to check you have signal there? Also a TRS from main amp send to aux amp return should also work (but not in the stereo way you want). Even expander to Aux amp input should work (albeit the signal will be to high for the input but you can turn the expander lv right down just to check the expander out works).
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Have you checked if you have a signal coming out of the expander jack? I see in the schematics an exp mute signal, maybe you need to turn it on in the software???
The send return is pretty forward, it should work when you plug either a balanced or unbalanced cable.
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It does send a signal out from the expander jack. It's been working that way with the Vibrolux all these years without needing to be enabled in software. And, I did plug into the input on the front of the amp from the expander output. That also worked that way, but it's not how it should work.
I believe the EXP mute you're looking at is a function when using an expression pedal, but I'm not using that.
Technically, you should be able to plug your guitar into the effects return of any amp with an effects loop, and hear it come through the speaker completely bypassed from the preamp. That doesn't work in this amp that way. I forgot to mention that in my post
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Hey Harley, then that would imply the return (fx loop) is being turned off some how, can it be turned on and off with a footswitch?? What happens if you put a stomp pedal or fx gadget in the loop send return, does that work? (it should obviously).
A really dumb thought is - does it need a jack in both send and return to make it work??? (it shouldn't)
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I see that the send has a mute, the return doesn't and it goes almost straight (through some opamps) into the codec.
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@ Richard,
No, I don't see anything to toggle the loop in any of the CC parameters. If you put a pedal in the loop, you get whatever tone with the current preset you have with the pedal added to it, and I did mention in the first post about this that I tried a dummy plug in the send jack to see if the amp needed to see something like that in order to work, but that made no difference.
@MJMP,
I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing
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From what I can see it should work, the send signal goes through the return jack contacts if nothing is plugged in, if you plug something in the return cuts the send signal. And you say a dummy plug works so it should work. BTW it doesn't need something in the send, I looked at that. Now I see that the expander has a sort of balanced out same for the return but a normal mono jack cable should work. I see a left and right signal mixed togheter and the left can be muted with a button?
Can you plug another signal into the return and see if that works?
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MJMP,
I already tried putting another signal into the return jacks of both of these amps, and I get nothing, no sound.
Let me try to explain how this system is supposed to work as simply as I can:
Amplifier "A" is the amp I have the guitar plugged into on the front panel. All the tone shaping and level controls are in this amplifier.
I plug an instrument cable from the Expander out on the back of this amplifier and send this signal out to amplifier "B" The stereo split button on this amplifier is pushed in to separate the stereo channels into left and right. The Left stereo channel will now come out of amplifier "A" only. The level control next to the expander output jack will control the level of the right channel signal going to amplifier "B"
Amplifier "B" - the line from amplifier "A" is plugged into the Return jack of this amplifier and none of the controls on this amplifier work. Everything is controlled from amplifier "A." The stereo right channel from amplifier "A" is what is plugged into the return jack of amplifier "B" but there is no sound coming from this amplifier. The dummy plug in the send jack of this amplifier did not work either. I tried a balanced cable (T/R/S) instead of a mono cable, and again, no sound. I tried plugging my guitar straight into the return jack of this amplifier, and again, no sound. I tried sending a direct signal from my GK 250ML into the return of this amplifier, and again, no sound.
At this point I thought to myself maybe something was wrong with this amplifier so I switched the two amplifiers connections around and tried sending from amplifier "B" to amplifier "A" in the same way as described above. Once again, no sound from the amplifier that is plugged into the return jack. Amplifier "A" is the one I've owned since it was new, so I knew there was no damage in that circuit. This is why I believe there may be some kind of flaw in the circuit design, because they both do the same thing, no matter what I plug into the return jack of either amplifier.
From what you can see in the schematic, it should be working like that, but something is stopping it from doing so. This doesn't make sense. There is nothing in the manual about setting any kind of MIDI controller messages to the effects loop. In fact, the only control for the effects is found on the MIDI foot controller, and that is the effects bypass button, but that only bypasses the effects in the DSP of the "A" amplifier. I will try connecting a MIDI cable to the "B" amplifier from the "A" amplifier and see if that does anything when I press the effects bypass button. It seems like software is the only thing I have left to solve this problem. I doubt if this will do anything.
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Update:
I have it working now. it's not perfected, but it's working.
I tried a few different things in the software but nothing made a difference. So, I decided to try a Sysex Dump of my programs from the original CD into the one I just bought. Now, the sound comes through. I'm not sure of this, but I think I needed to make sure all the MIDI messages were being transmitted and received in the newer amp. It seems odd, but it's working now.
The new discoveries about this setup is this: The right channel of the stereo effects only comes through if you have a stereo effect set up in the program, all mono effects will come out of the left channel, (meaning the "A" amplifier).
The volume of the "B" amplifier seems to be lower than the original amplifier so I've had to turn the level control of the expander output all the way up and adjust the master volume on the "B" amplifier to balance the levels out. The level button on the effects loop in the "B" amplifier needs to be set to +4 db, but I still need to adjust the master volume up higher in the "B" amp to match the "A" amp.
So more tweaking is needed now to get things right.
Leave it to me to take a simple concept and make it into a complicated mess :lol:
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Wauw, that wasen't easy!! Strange that if you use a mono effect the other side doesn't work, you should thing it will output a dual mono signal?
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MJMP,
The only place the Cyber Deluxe outputs dual mono signals is at the two recording line outs. The expander out is only supposed to have the right channel of the stereo effects when you select that function.
If there is no stereo effect selected when connected with an auxiliary amplifier, then the right side comes out dry with any reverb you might have dialed in. This is actually kind of cool when you are using just the CD without the Cyber Twin in the middle. You get your mono effect out of one side, but you still have your core guitar tone coming from the other side untouched, so it's parallel effects when not using stereo. That will make mic'ing these up a lot easier when recording.
The manual doesn't give much detail about anything these amps can do, so you have to figure all the really cool things you can do with these amps as you go. For what they are as far as modeling amps go, and as good as they sound, I think I made the smart move buying these while they are still cheap. Overall, I could take either the CT, or the CD's, or both rigs to any gig and can keep up with the best of them.
BTW, I just got the bugs sorted out in my desktop and in Cubase, and managed to finally get it to record some guitar direct. It took me almost all day to figure out what was wrong, but something in my Focusrite got screwy and I had to remove the software and reinstall it to get the inputs working again. Fortunately, I'm only involving three different types of software, Cubase, Toontracks, and Focusrite. I don't have any plug-ins or any of that other stuff, so all my tones have to come from my amps and effects.
Anyway, after I get a couple of decent sounding programs set up in the amps, I'm going to get a few sample tracks recorded and post them here. I just hope I don't run into any software glitches again.