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Non ADA Gear => Rack Gear => Topic started by: Soloist on November 26, 2014, 07:45:35 AM

Title: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on November 26, 2014, 07:45:35 AM
Hello all, I am fairly new to a rack set up. Here is what I have and how I ran my signal path:
Guitar to rack tuner>black loop>loop 1 is ADA MP1, loop 2 is Marshall JMP1. Out of black loop to Hush super c> quadraverb>sonic maximixer>fx return of DSL. I also have 1 eq in each of the preamps fx loops.
Is the a better way to run this?
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on November 27, 2014, 04:35:16 AM
Hey Soloist, simple answer yes IMHO, first what's a black loop ? nothing on Google so I don't know what it is/does, from what you've posted it seems to be designed to enhance (add more flexibility) to existing fx loops (like basic serial loop in MP1).
Anyway, just on what you have and how I'd want to patch it (basic paradigm, keep it analogue all the way to power amp, mix in digital things on the way (delay/reverb etc)) and above all (particularly with ADA MP1) keep it all stereo (huge difference  :thumb-up: ).
So I suspect you use the black loop to select between the MP1 and Marshall JMP1 preamps. If the black loop is mono, I'd get rid of it, it will just hold you back, there are other ways of switching between 2 "stereo" preamps (e.g. simple input splitter (A/B or A+B), I modified an old Peavy foot switch to do this, just need 3 jack sockets and a 2 on/off foot switches, one picked A/B the other A+B). Tuner can/should go before this switch (though they can/do sometimes affect your sound, I use a clip on Peterson Stroboclip, so no longer an issue for me).  The best way after this with what you have is to use a small mixer with lots of fx sends. plug each preamp into 2 channels panned left/right, use the FX sends to bring in the Quadverb in stereo and back down 2 channels (or stereo FX return), DSL ? if stereo FX gadget same as Quadverb, hush ? if not stereo need to put with tuner before split between preamps, others seem to like these sonic maximisers, they probably just add upper harmonics (~18khz (like oral exciters)), I haven't tried (or have the need) for them, if it wont run in stereo.. not good. but again mix these things in to you basic good sounding analogue signals (i.e.MP1,Marshall JMP1)
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Systematic Chaos on November 27, 2014, 05:25:04 AM
I guess it´s this:
(http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mP5JByNOxy9brJoMlC9-jHw.jpg)
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on November 27, 2014, 06:54:22 AM
Yup that's it. It is only mono. I would love to go stereo however my Dsl only has a mono fx loop. Time to save up for a stereo power amp!
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on November 28, 2014, 04:46:48 AM
Go SC, thanks, Ok it adds 2 (switchable) mono serial effects loops. Useful but not best for MP1/2 (best to keep digital gadgets out of these loops BTW unless they have true analogue bypass). When you try stereo (if your like me, you won't go back :thumb-up: ).
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on November 30, 2014, 08:29:56 PM
ok here is what I got going now:
Guitar>A/B Splitter> Out of splitter on channel A>JMP1
                            > Out of splitter on channel B>ADA MP1
JMP & MP1 outs to Alesis Multimix8 (channels 1 and 2) Stereo EQ & Quadraverb in multimix 8 stereo fx loop.
Multimix 8 out to Hush Super C (stereo as well)> Stereo power amp> 2, 412 cabs.

Still looking at power amps. Does it matter Solid State or not? Both preamps are tube so.......
One more question on power amps I am wondering if an ART SLA1 or Rocktron Velocity 100 LTD would work for me? This rig is being set up for live use not studio. Thanks for your help rnolan! :metal:
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 01, 2014, 01:50:18 AM
Hey happy to help  :thumb-up: , should sound awesome  :whoohoo!: >:D and preserving analogue for main signal  :thumb-up: .
Poweramps for ADA MP1/2 are best clean and transparent with good headroom. Both SS and tube amps work well (SS are less to lug, tube amps are heavy mothers (3 transformers instead of 1)). I used the ADA B200s SS (124 w per chan into 4 ohms), great amp love them, perfect match for MP1/2. It was playing up so I bought a Carvin TS100 all tube 50w per channel, love it also, They are both very clean, transparent amps (Carvin recommend the TS100 to run studio monitors also). The tubes amps are a little bit warmer (subtle though), a Carvin DCM200 1 RU 200w per channel SS very light (designed for passive studio monitors) will also work very well. If you want colur from a power amp, and it's not the way I do it, then tube amps will do that better than SS.
The ART SLA1 looks fine (but the DCM200 is better value and twice the power), the Rocktron Velocity 100 LTD is underpowered for a SS amp (55w p/c into 4ohms) IMHO while the numbers should mean the same (wrms) 50 valve watts are MUCH bigger than 50 SS watts (that's my experience). I wondered if the TS100 at 50 p/c would be loud enough after B200s at 124w p/c. It's plenty loud  >:D The Rocktron Velocity 100 LTD has bass boost (loudness control for low volume (bedroom is my guess)) and a presence boost (6khz), I have the presence on the TS100, never use it there's plenty in the MP1/2 for me, and B200s just has vol knobs, never a problem. Basically with MP1/2 the tone is in the preamp, you just want to make it louder without changing it in anyway.
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on December 01, 2014, 06:37:17 AM
Wow I didn't even see the Carvin when I did my research. I got a DCM200L on order, should see it in a few days!! :whoohoo!: Thanks again for your insight!
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: MarshallJMP on December 01, 2014, 01:49:06 PM

Still looking at power amps. Does it matter Solid State or not? Both preamps are tube so.......

The JMP-1 isn't actually a "real" tube preamp,the actual distortion is solid state with an added tube after the distortion to give the sound a bit of tube feel,like they did in the valvestates.The mp-1 is a real tube distortion unit.
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on December 01, 2014, 09:58:03 PM

The JMP-1 isn't actually a "real" tube preamp,the actual distortion is solid state with an added tube after the distortion to give the sound a bit of tube feel,like they did in the valvestates.The mp-1 is a real tube distortion unit.
AHH, Good to know. Thanks for the clarification. :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 02, 2014, 04:41:06 AM
Wow I didn't even see the Carvin when I did my research. I got a DCM200L on order, should see it in a few days!! :whoohoo!: Thanks again for your insight!
Let us know how it goes, should work very well  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on December 08, 2014, 08:14:19 PM
OK I got my Carvin power amp, all wired up....Holy Shit!! what a difference! I really notice it on my effects running in true stereo. Thanks for all the info.
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 09, 2014, 02:37:43 AM
Hey happy to help  :wave: , and glad you like it. What does the eq button sound like ?
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on December 09, 2014, 09:05:34 AM
The EQ Expander button works like a mid cut/bass boost. Great for early Metallica :metal:

Now I just need to figure out how to set up some custom patches on my quadraverb. This thing is a bit tricky for me. I am used to HD500 set up, and the q-verb is a completely different animal ???
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 10, 2014, 05:10:09 AM
Cool, so it's a bit like a loudness button, good to know BTW.
Quadverb is easy (but remember it goes from midi 000 to 127, MP1 001 to 128 so MP1 100 = Quadverb  099 etc.) Also you can midi map at either end (MP1 midi "out" can be anything you want for that patch), and Quadverb midi "in" can map to whatever patch in QV (AGAIN remember the patch number difference (-1 on QV!!!)). I run a basic mild stereo delay and some stereo reverb and have the QV map the various patches to the same basic fx. But if I want a particular fx, I can map the patch to it (or make a patch the same number -1).
I find the QV easy to drive, press the thing you want to change (e.g. delay), scroll through the variables and set them where you want and save. Same for Reverb... etc It had/has a really good manual, really good explanations of all the controls and what they do. Particularly reverb. I run myQV full wet BTW and mix in with (these days) MP2 in parallel with a small desk.
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on December 26, 2014, 06:20:25 PM
Well where to begin........ah yes I changed up my live rig this is my current signal path ; Guitar >Boss NS2 Noise gate> Boss MT2 metal zone >A/B splitter. A >Marshall JMP-1 / B >ADA MP-1.
JMP-1 >Alesis Multimix8 (Channel 1) ADA >Alesis Multimix8 (Channel 2).
Alesis Multimix8 FX loop send >Boss GE-7 EQ >BBE Sonic Stomp >Multimix8 FX loop return.
Multimix8 out >Hush II Super C >Quadraverb >DOD 830 EQ >Carvin DCM200L >412 CAB. :banana-rock:
I want to add a Lexicon MX200 (mainly for the Delays/Flange) I like the Chorus and Reverbs better on the quadraverb. So I am thinking of placing it between the Hush and QV. Neither one sounds good in the FX loop of the Multimix8, plus I am thinking reverb last so has anyone else used more that one effects processor? If so how did you wire it?
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 27, 2014, 12:39:45 AM
Reverb last is how I'd patch, that way you get reverb on the other effects as an overall thing (as I would with a PA mix etc).
I'm running 3 processors in my live rig (QV, Midiverb4 and IPS33 smartshift) but my setup is quite different as I have MP2 (with stereo parallel loop) and small mixer so I patch it like I would a PA. I worked the Midverb4 into the MP2 loop (which I can switch on and off with the MXC Quad switch). This is a very recent addition mostly to add a bigger delay and I haven't really done much with it. I set my live rig up the other day and am starting to play around with it, partly to see if I've got any QV patches you might like  :wave:
Easiest patch is probably chain the 2 stereo processors (4 cable), put reverb last. While this will work it will be a bit tricky getting the wet/dry mix and in/out gain right (but just takes some tweaking). And you'll loose some life from all the AD/DA stages.
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 27, 2014, 01:29:36 AM
Ok just checked out the Alesis Multimix8 so started this thought bubble. (but you lose some bits/gadgets but IMHO this will sound better so maybe start like I'm suggesting and work things back in later).
Guit > A/B Splitter (A / JMP1, B / MP1).  JMP1 L/R > Alesis MM8 line in chan 1/2 (pan L/R), MP1 > Alesis MM8 line in chan 3/4 (pan L/R) > Alesis MM8 out 1/2 > (Hush here if you want ? and DOD EQ if you want  :dunno: ) > DCM200 > cabs (stereo cab ?).
Now for FX, chan 1 and 3 Aux A and chan 2 and 4 Aux B to MX200 L/R in, MX200 L/R out to QV L/R in, QV L/R outs to stereo channel 5/6 (don't tun up Aux A or B on this return or will feedback). Adjust MX200 wet/dry so there is still enough dry signal for QV, run QV full wet and mix it all back in via chan 5/6 fader. (or don't use MX200, just QV full wet but connected this way). So this preserves analogue stero path all the way with digital FXs mixed in in parallel.
Boss GE-7 EQ >BBE Sonic Stomp could go in front of the A/B switch ? or in either the MP1 or JMP1 loops ?
Note: The channel vol level will affect the Aux B send level as it's post (ie post fader), Aux A (designed as a monitor send) wont be affected by channel vol as it's pre fader, but once adjusted won't matter as your not changing (continually adjusting) the faders/vols like in a live mix.

Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on December 27, 2014, 08:35:02 AM
I'm a little confused. Why would I split the Jmp and Ada into 4 different channels? Each channel is in stereo to begin with. I also don't know where aux a and aux b are. The multimix8 has 8 stereo inputs, and 1 stereo output. It also has a stereo send and receive fx loop. Yes my cab is stereo. Sonic stomp must be last in the chain, tried it up front sounded like ass. I have no problems removing that from my signal path. The QV sounds best after the mixer not in the loop. The lexicon sounds better in the mixers fx loop. However with that set up when you bypass either processor the levels are all over the place. :dunno:
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 27, 2014, 09:17:51 AM
The 1st 4 channels on the MM8 are mono (one input, line or mic), you can pan them in the stereo mix bus but they are mono inputs. So to get the best and preserve stereo outs from your JMP1 & MP1  you need to feed left to left and right to right (ie JMP1 L/R out to chan 1/2 (pan 1 L 2 R) and MP1 A/B outs to 3 & 4 again pan.. now it's stereo) There are stereo inputs (5/6 and 7/8) which is where I suggested you bring FX return.
Aux A and B are directly under your channel eq (A is pre fader, B is post fader), they send that channel to whatever you plug the Aux send out to (you have referred to it as an FX loop, but there are quite a few ways in and out of a desk, the standard FX returns aren't the best for your patch IMHO), use the 2 aux sends A/B to feed the L/R of MX200 and QV and bring the result down a stereo channel (ie 5/6), and mix in the fx. Give it a try  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on December 27, 2014, 11:19:58 AM
You must be looking at the MM8 usb desk model. I have the MM8 rack mixer.
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 28, 2014, 12:35:43 AM
Sorry, my bad  :facepalm: , it's a very different beast (I was (as you say) referring to the MM8 USB desk model (as that's what came up when I goggled Alesis MM8)). No wonder you were a little confused LOL. So bummer it only has one send return loop, but good that it's a stereo parallel loop. I've been wanting something like this for my live rig but I want 6 sends. So you could chain the MX200 and QV in the loop as previous post. Tricky bit with chaining is getting the gain structure right (in/out levels, dry/wet mix, but that's the same for anyway you patch the gadgets). Interesting you said QV doesn't sound very good in loop, if the gain structure is right it should be fine. Have you tried it in the loop with nothing else (in loop)? Back your original thought to put MX200 before QV, that should work fine again getting levels right may take a bit of tweaking. But maybe as your wanting the MX200 for delay/flange/chorus it would be better in the loop and thus before the Hush.
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: Soloist on December 28, 2014, 06:33:06 PM
I wired this rig up every way imaginable and this is what works best: Guitar>NS-2>MT-2>GE-7>Sonic Stomp> A/B Splitter. Channel A> ADA MP-1>Channel 1 on Multimix8. Channel B>JMP-1>Channel 2 on Multimix8. MM8 fx loop QVerb>MX200>DOD EQ>Hush II.  MM8 mixer out>DCM200>412 Stereo cab. I put everything into the MM8 Loop and had to swap QVerb and Lexicon positions but it all works. I wasn't sure how the Hush would react being at the end in the loop but it actually works better. :thumb-up: I also had to turn the QVerb levels down to 60%-70% but I get no volume drops or spikes, no matter what is on or bypassed. :banana-guitar:
Title: Re: Rack Set Up
Post by: rnolan on December 28, 2014, 08:42:10 PM
 :whoohoo!: :thumb-up: Looks like a really good patch  :metal: