ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Miscellaneous => ADA Sound/Audio Clips & Bits => MP1 => Topic started by: El Chiguete on June 04, 2015, 09:41:33 PM
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Here are two raw recordings with no post production or much practicing before hitting record (you will notice all the mistakes :facepalm: ) but I just wanted to make a first try on setting up my gear to record.
- 1981 Kramer Pacer Standard with a Bill Lawrence LXL500 humbucker
- ADA MP-1 with no mods
- Rane MPE 28
- Lexicon MPX G2
- Scumback H75LD speakers
- Shure SM57
https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/the-loner-prueba-2 (https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/the-loner-prueba-2)
https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/panama-prueba-2 (https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/panama-prueba-2)
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/ElChiguete/11392988_10155761014750121_9174070588188132707_n.jpg)
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/ElChiguete/11391202_10155761014765121_3588585411878152206_n.jpg)
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Hey El, very nice :thumb-up: did you go with Mullards in your MP1 (IIRC you did ??) coz it definitely sounds like it. What poweramp did you use ? and you ran it mono ? well at least recorded in mono with 1 x SM57. I like the sound of the scumbacks BTW, I hear now why you were so keen to get them. The BL LXL500 sounds nice, reminds me a little of my Ultrasonics (which turns out were Bill Lawrence)
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Well actually I havent change the tubes and I believe they are still the original ones!
For the poweramp I use Epiphone Valve Jr modded to have a boost switch, a switch to choose different input capacitors, treble control and master volume. The idea is that using it at a low gain/clean setting its basicly a clean poweramp and because of its low wattage (only 5w) I can CRANK the master volume and get the EL84 to sing! And yes for now its mono.
The scumbacks that I bought have a large center cone and really smooth out the tones and are ment to give a Dumble-like silky tone.
All of this makes that tone that you hear. When I get home tonight I will post the eq settings but they should be very close to my ¨special¨ settings that I posted before :) And as you can hear it has plenty of gain allready!!!
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Here are my settings: OD1: 6.5, OD2: 6.5, MST: 2.5, BAS: 0, MID: -8, TREB: 0, PRES: -4
and so far the Rane EQ only at +4db at 80Hz.
Im getting that tone by having the Master Volume of my Epiphone Valve Jr "poweramp" at 100% but not only did I have the Master on the MP-1 low but also the RJM Mini Line Mixer is like at 30%!!! I hope I can take my complete setup somewhere I can crack everything up to see what it sounds like :)
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Hey El, well it sounds great so far and I recon will sound awesome in stereo at stage volume when you get a chance :thumb-up:
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Sounds great! you are the master of strange EQ settings,you really are,i never would come up with these EQ settings ;D
BTW love the panama cover !!!
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Sounds great! you are the master of strange EQ settings,you really are,i never would come up with these EQ settings ;D
BTW love the panama cover !!!
WOW this is an honor and something I want to be put in my gravestone! jejeje
Hey I'm going to start a new thread on post-production eq vs eq changes before recording that I want you guys to comment :thumb-up:
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Not to mention the zany patching ideas :thumb-up: which I'm all for as IMO they help your understanding of how things work together (or don't LoL).
Hey El, do me a favour and try bringing all the eq points up by +2db and tell me/post how it sounds (so Rane +6 @ 80hz, B +2, M -6, T +2, P -2), this is better eq gain structure but I'm interested to know how it varies the tone (eq shouldn't take away or add overall gain (if you can achieve it)), though it's a bit different in a guitar context due to the eq centre freq and slopes being optimised to make guitar tones so it's being used as an FX.
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Sounds great! you are the master of strange EQ settings,you really are,i never would come up with these EQ settings ;D
BTW love the panama cover !!!
WOW this is an honor and something I want to be put in my gravestone! jejeje
comment :thumb-up:
:thumb-up: samdeal with the OD2 setting to zero brilliant thinking >:D
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Well today I spend sometime re-recording Panama and made some changes:
a) first I realiced that the other track I recorded just had too much gain, lower OD1 and OD2 to 5.0
b) after I was happy with that I realiced that the track needed more high end and even tho for my ears it was too much after a few tries thru the mic it sounded best going with T:0 and P:0...... so I think now my patch looks ever crazier because most of the EQs are at 0!
OD1: 5.0, OD2: 5.0, MST: 2.5, BAS: 0, MID: -8, TREB: 0, PRES: 0 and so far the Rane EQ only at +4db at 80Hz.
https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/panama-prueba-78 (https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/panama-prueba-78)
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Hey El cool my friend very nice plating and tone :thumb-up: . Remember the SM57 will boost 5khz (presence) and aimed as the pic you posted (midway between centre and edge of cone), that's where the mids will be (so you've gone Mid -8db to compensate). Play around with mic position but maybe (may I sugest) try micking in centre (ish) but aimed off axis back toward the edge a bit (having the mic diaphragm at the same angle as the cone (so parallel to it ish)) and also come back off the speaker a bit (maybe 12") so the speaker can open up a little more before it hits the mic. Anyway, something you can try, you'll find the sound varies quite a bit depending on mic placement (like some of the adjustments available on the various cab sims etc). Which are just trying to copy/mimic what we've been doing for years by trying to find the best place (sound) for the mic.
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Hey El cool my friend very nice plating and tone :thumb-up: . Remember the SM57 will boost 5khz (presence) and aimed as the pic you posted (midway between centre and edge of cone), that's where the mids will be (so you've gone Mid -8db to compensate). Play around with mic position but maybe (may I sugest) try micking in centre (ish) but aimed off axis back toward the edge a bit (having the mic diaphragm at the same angle as the cone (so parallel to it ish)) and also come back off the speaker a bit (maybe 12") so the speaker can open up a little more before it hits the mic...
Well today I tested moving the mic 2 inches at a time from the speaker grill to 12 inches appart (missing one of them sorry :facepalm:) and you can really hear the difference! https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/testing-an-sm57-with-each-take-at-2-4-6-8-10-and-12-from-the-speaker (https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/testing-an-sm57-with-each-take-at-2-4-6-8-10-and-12-from-the-speaker) The first are just too saturated and thats what was bugging me but from half on they deffinetly sound better to me!
Whats has me wondering is howcome what I remember from watching studio pics and videos of my fav bands is that their mics are really close to the grills? For example here you can see Adrian Smith in the studio and his amp behind him from min 4:43 and the mics are right on the grill!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdIoQIelnHA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdIoQIelnHA)
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Well today I tested moving the mic 2 inches at a time from the speaker grill to 12 inches appart (missing one of them sorry :facepalm:) and you can really hear the difference! https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/testing-an-sm57-with-each-take-at-2-4-6-8-10-and-12-from-the-speaker (https://soundcloud.com/luis-rene/testing-an-sm57-with-each-take-at-2-4-6-8-10-and-12-from-the-speaker) The first are just too saturated and thats what was bugging me but from half on they deffinetly sound better to me!
Whats has me wondering is howcome what I remember from watching studio pics and videos of my fav bands is that their mics are really close to the grills? For example here you can see Adrian Smith in the studio and his amp behind him from min 4:43 and the mics are right on the grill!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdIoQIelnHA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdIoQIelnHA)
But Adrian´s cab is mic'ed with at least 2 mics there..... I guess a 57 on-axis at cone/cap and a 421 slightly off axis
For my tastes, your recording sounds better/fuller with the mic closer (2")....just a tad bit too much on the edgy/bright side (for my taste)...
Move it another 2" away from the center (see attached pic, 57 on-axis over a Cel V30)....or leave it in place but just angle it ever so slightly away from the center of the speaker (thus preserving the center attack but getting a bit more of the fullness of the outer cone area)
Record two tracks trying to be as precise/close to the first one as possible.
Pan the first 100 L and the second 100 R, insert both tracks again but this time with first 70 R and second 70 L... (a bit cheating for not having to record 4 tracks....)
edit* just checked your pic...maybe also try one of the bottom speakers instead one of the upper ones (where the cab is angled)
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Hey El, to get the sound you like it's trial and error. With the 57 so close you also get "proximity" effect, basically base boost from 1 to 1 1/2 " from the sound source, good for vocals which is largely what 57s and 58s were designed for. Moving away from the source you get a more flat response (though still 5khz boost in those 2 mics, also part of their design). I agree with SC, try the bottom speaker as it has a bit more box volume. First I'd try just angling the 57 a bit toward the outside of the cone and get it off axis, while you are only pumping 5 watts it's not as big a deal (although will sound different (better I suspect)) but the 57 (while being a very versatile mic) wasn't designed for high SPL (sound pressure level), it's a vocal mic. Going off axis wont work the mic diaphragm quite as hard. I've often just hung a 57 over the top of the cab using the mic cable through a handle etc or whatever to hold it there (gaph tape...) coz I didn't have enough mic stands. So diaphragm at 90 deg to cone. Works fine and the diaphragm doesn't bottom out from the high volume.
The Senhiezer 421 was designed as a high quality very high SPL mic (~120db IIRC) and is a better mic for (loud) cabs and no 5khz boost, they are designed to be quite flat. Also very good for toms and not too bad for kick (though M88 better).
One of the best kick mic ups I did was using an EV RE20 (arguably the best "dynamic" mic ever) pointed at the center of the skin (to pick up the bottom end) and a 57 pointed at the edge of the skin (to pick up some click/tops). So what Adrian is doing with 421 and 57 is a similar concept.
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So a quick question, to go off axis I just go straight back and then angle from the tail of the mic so to leave the tip of the mic in the same position?
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Not quite ?, You want the tip to be at an angle to the front of the cab/speaker. In the pic you had the 57 aimed directly at (close to) the centre of the speaker cone. Just point the tip left toward the outside edge (so the mic diaphragm is (off axis) at an angle to the front of the cab). On axis is directly in line with the voice coil (pointed straight at the speaker (BTW you can try staying on axis and just moving it left or right to point at different parts of the cone (remember tops are in the centre of the cone, bass on the outer edges...)), a little off axis tilt works better though IMHO. You'd do the same with a snare drum i.e. mic it at an angle, the closer to 90 degrees, the more proximity effect but much harder for the diaphragm.
Hey El, I don't know if you already know this stuff so I'll just blurt it out:
Mics and speakers are transducers, mics convert sound waves to electrical signals, speakers turn electrical signals into sound waves. There are various ways to do this but each mic type (dynamic, condenser, ribbon, piezo etc) has an equivalent (almost opposite job but they work the same way) in speakers.
The 57 is a dynamic mic and works in the same way as your guitar speakers. The mic has a small diaphragm (mylar ?) attached to a short tube which is surrounded by lots of insulated copper coils, the tube/coils sits in a magnetic field, as the diaphragm vibrates, the coil movement generates a small voltage, a dynamic speaker (like a guitar speaker) does the same thing in reverse, it has a bigger coil/tube and bigger diaphragm (cone) and takes the amp output signal into its coil which makes it vibrate.
A condenser mic works a little differently (but does the same job (albeit much more acurately)), a condenser mic also has a (mylar?, they vary) diaphragm but impregnated with carbon (so is electrically conductive), this sits between 2 electrically charged plates (so can't move as far as dynamic without bashing (bottoming out)). When the diaphragm vibrates, it changes the capacitance between the two plates which is the signal you want, this is very low voltage so needs a pre pre amp (if you will)) to bring it up to decent level, so condenser mics need power (either battery or phantom (48v) power) to work (power for the 2 charged plates and power for the pre pre amp (best ones use a tube for pre pre amp)). Condensers are much more sensitive (you'll pick up the traffic outside etc) so tend to be used in studios where you have sound isolation and want very accurate sound. The speaker equivilent is like my QUAD ESL 63's, they are electrostatic speakers, they work the same way as a condenser mic in reverse, they are larger carbon impreganted mylar diaphragms between 2 charged plates, very accurate, but don't go too loud (as they'll hit the plates while vibrating).
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So a quick question, to go off axis I just go straight back and then angle from the tail of the mic so to leave the tip of the mic in the same position?
top mic: off-axis
bottom mic: on axis
(http://www.metalrecording.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Fredman2.png)
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Since im a bit stubborn I have to ask again using the attached picture. I believe that what you guys are telling me is to have the mic as in example C correct? To have the mic still in the edge of the center and cone pointed to the outer edge yes?
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Since im a bit stubborn I have to ask again using the attached picture. I believe that what you guys are telling me is to have the mic as in example C correct? To have the mic still in the edge of the center and cone pointed to the outer edge yes?
Exactly! C it is! Attack and articulation from the center plus more of the fullness/bottom end/"cream" of the outer part...
Play a lick/riff using the looper in the MPX-G2 and have it repeat while you move the mic
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Well SCs pic = A :dunno: , but I was trying describe C LoL. A is also worth trying (often you are limited on stage by space and mic stands so you do the best you can with what you have). An do try just hanging the mic (by its lead (wont hurt it or lead)) over the top and place the tip/capsule about half way between the edge and centre (often sounds better BTW :thumb-up: ). All of these approaches are valid, as SC says if you aim more toward the edge to get more bottom end/"cream" (nice description SC BTW :thumb-up: ) and more toward the centre to get more bight/tops (sparkle in clean sounds), in between more mids.
And very good idea to loop G2 so you can play with different positions until you hit a sweet spot you like and the mic works well in.
So in the attached pic I have the 2 Rode NT5 condensers aimed a little off axis and not too close to my stereo wired split stack, this worked well for them in that situation, but they are very flat and "faithful to the sound" mics. If I was playing louder I would pull them back a bit. Also I recorded in the we hours (2 - 3 am) so no cars going past (which they will pick up).