ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Non ADA Gear => Rack Gear => Topic started by: gb on March 11, 2017, 06:10:47 PM
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Hi guys
Long time. I hope all is well with everyone. I wasnt sure if i should post this question in another forum more based on lexicon stuff but i noticed a few here use them. Saying that i think my question is geared (no pun intended) around an understanding of how midi can work for me.
Im starting to get back into my rack gear again and actually want to use it in a live situation (been a while since ive been active with guitar). Im keeping it simple - Leixcon G2/R1 controller and ada mp1 and power amp.
I wish to use the ADA MP1 and my G2 together utilising the R1 controller for both but im having a hard time understanding concepts and terms within the G2 manual.
I need help lol.. or if there is a course? I know the G2 has been dubbed a difficult unit to program but i dont think thats my issue, its more understanding what it (and MIDI) is capable of doing and i really need someone to lay out for me. Ive googled and googled and here I am.
Is there a way or such a thing (again lack of MIDI knowledge on my part) to say configure an overall patch on the foot controller that once pressed or selected it will change to preset 10 on the ADA and preset 36 on the lexicon ..then if i hit another overall program patch it will select preset 11 on the ada and then patch 152 on the lexicon (as examples) . .without having to manually do a dance with my feet using a dedicated foot controller for each unit.
This is as far as ive got.. im able to select a patch on the R1 controller (say 36) and it will change the lexicon to 36 and ALSO the ADA to 36. So im guessing this is because both units are using the same midi channel of 1. If i change the ADA MP1 midi to talk on channel 2, i then dont know how to tell the G2/R1 to talk to the MP1 on this same channel.. but saying that how do i leave the normal functions on the R1 controller to still maintain some lexicon functions but also be able to controll the mp1 .. or is one or the other.. surely not...i assume you can reassign buttons on the R1 foot controller to perhaps talk to the MP1 on channel 2..
Another scenario Id also like to achieve is say leave my lexicon effects preset on 36 .. still be able to use the R1 controller to manually turn effects on or off within this patch BUT also then be able to change presets on the ADA MP1 only seperately .. eg scenario..im on stage. the whole set uses the same lexicon preset of 36 but maybe 1 or 2 songs id like to enable or disable delay depending where in the song requires it.. but the set list requires different ADA MP1 patches between clean, crunch, lead etc..
I hope that makes sense.. and im sure the unit and combination is capable i just need help on how to achieve that. :(
I hope some of the guru's can chime in :D
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Welcome! :wave:
Is there a way or such a thing (again lack of MIDI knowledge on my part) to say configure an overall patch on the foot controller that once pressed or selected it will change to preset 10 on the ADA and preset 36 on the lexicon ..then if i hit another overall program patch it will select preset 11 on the ada and then patch 152 on the lexicon (as examples) . .without having to manually do a dance with my feet using a dedicated foot controller for each unit.
This is as far as ive got.. im able to select a patch on the R1 controller (say 36) and it will change the lexicon to 36 and ALSO the ADA to 36. So im guessing this is because both units are using the same midi channel of 1. If i change the ADA MP1 midi to talk on channel 2, i then dont know how to tell the G2/R1 to talk to the MP1 on this same channel.. but saying that how do i leave the normal functions on the R1 controller to still maintain some lexicon functions but also be able to controll the mp1 .. or is one or the other.. surely not...i assume you can reassign buttons on the R1 foot controller to perhaps talk to the MP1 on channel 2..
This part of your description is all about Midi Mapping. You can program the Midi Mapping to do exactly what you described. For instance,
You may want to press button 16 on your pedalboard and make the MP-1 change to program #28 and the fx processor to #37 at the same time. Very useful when working with multiple preamp patches and different fx patches to mix and match however you need.
You'll need to program the MP-1 in the Midi Mapping menu (the Owners Manual explains exactly how to do this. You can find the manual online here in The VAULT (http://adadepot.com/index.php?topic=659.0)) as to which program it will switch to, and then program the fx processor to go to which program you want it to go to there.
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Hey mate, thanks for the reply.
Ok, so if understand correctly the lexicon unit or foot controller is where the 'program' is stored. In that program has the configuration of what to do ie. Preset 10 o the ada mp1 and preset 30 of the lexicon as an example.
Thanks for the link to midi mapping. Im not clear what this is doing and why i would do this on the mp1.
After the 3rd time reading the R1 manual i think im understanding there are different modes it can operate.
Also can someone explain in simple terms what a CC is? I see it ranges to 119 or something
I know i can google alot of this and ive sone some reading but i feel i need an interactive discussion to understand it a bit better. I desperately want to really understand it all as i feel there is sooo much potential with it! And i dont want it to beat me!
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A thought. If someone already has this setup on there G2 os this something i could upload to my unit...then decipher the config to understand what its doing and why?
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R1 to G2 remote in; G2 Midi Out to MP1 Midi In.
The mapping is done in the G2 (System Submenu)
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Thanks mate. Yep hooked up like that already.
Ok great thats a start. So midi mapping from the G2.
Can you expand a little on what im mapping exactly. Am i mapping buttons to do something ?
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Hi GB,
No, what you are telling the G2, (if you program the mapping there), that when it receives program change command from the foot controller, let's say for example, #26, The MIDI out will send program change command # 37 to the MP-1, if that's what you want it to do.
You can alternately program the MP-1 in it's MIDI menu, so that when it sees program change command #26, it will 'map' to program change #37 instead.
Don't let MID intimidate you, it isn't that complicated, and can make life a lot easier :thumb-up:
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Hey GB, I'll explain the basics a bit for you.
Midi channels are like phone numbers, you send midi messages on channel 1 and other devices listening on channel 1 "hear" and respond to those messages and ignore the others. Most often listening (receiving devices should be set to All so they listen to all midi 16 channels (unless you don't want them to). However the sending device (mostly the foot switch) generally transmits on one channel (which you can set) however see below, some do much more... but fundamentally, you are just making a call (establishing a communication channel between gadgets).
Midi Mapping at the unit:
The midi foot controller sends out midi commands (short digital messages that other midi enabled devices understand and react to). Generally these are sent on a midi channel (1-16), the unit that receives them needs to be listening to the correct channel (often you set the receive to All on the Fx device so it doesn't matter what channel it was sent on, but sometimes you want it to just react to that channel (this is a little more complicated and probably not where you need to go).
So lets keep it simple, you select prog 10 on your foot controller, it sends that out (on whatever midi channel you tell it to e.g. ch 1) over the midi lead. Lead is plugged into MP-1 midi in, MP-1 is set to receive (listen on either All, or chan1 (both will work), MP-1 hears change to prog 10. By default MP-1 changes to prog 10, but if you'f prefer MP-1 to change to a different program when it "hears" 10, you edit the MP-1 midi mapping table which lets you map any prog change input (in this case 10) to whatever MP-1 program you want (say 55). This is called the midi change table and most Fx have a version of it (e.g. the G2, the menus may be different but it can do the same (and go to any program within it that you want, say 89). So the change table maps what the unit hears <> to what you want the unit to change to (midi mapping), you are just mapping midi numbers basically).
e.g. I set my MP1/2 to one to one mapping 1=1 10=10 etc and my Quadverb main program (000 which is mild delay and reverb) is mapped (within the QV) to my MP1/2 patches. So I uses bank 11, so I've mapped the QV to be 110=000, 111=000 ~ 119=000, thus all of those MP1/2 patch changes have the same Fx. If I wanted a different Fx (a bigger delay which is QV 004) on a program say 116, I'd map 116=004.
Now hears a trap for young players..some midi devices go from 1 to 128 (eg MP1) and some go from 0-127 (eg QV :facepalm: ). So when I press 110 on my MXC is sends out prog change 110, MP1 goes to 110 but QV hears it as 109 so I need to map 109=000. So all the numbers above are 1 wrong for QV (but all fx are different you just need to adjust for their peculiarities)
Midi Mapping at The Pedal:
Some pedals (eg FCB1010) let you do this all at the pedal, so pressing a button can send out 5 different midi change numbers on 5 different midi channels with one press, this gets complicated :crazy: but it comes with some PC software that helps you sort it out (personally the above works fine for what I want to do).
MP1/2 Midi out:
MP1/2 also have a midi out as well as midi through, midi through just passes the signal on, if the next device is "listening" on a channel that's being sent it reacts.
The midi out reflects what button you press on the front panel of the MP1/2 and sends that change number to the midi out (so Fx change accordingly with front panel changes).
CC (Continuous Control <> real time midi):
Initially the Musical Instrument Digital Interface MIDI was mostly just program change numbers. Over time it expanded to include real time change signals (CC=Continuous Control). Later gadgets (particularly keyboards) use this to enhance their capabilities. So now the midi messages (chatting over the allocated/set midi channel) also include on/off information (eg turn chorus on/off) and level information (eg vol up/down, delay time up/down etc. So with CC you allocate (assign) a CC device (number), could be a button on you quad switch or a CC expression pedal) to a parameter you want to control (eg chorus on/off, delay on/off, master vol up/down etc). This depends what your foot controller can do and what the unit can understand (react to).
The MP2 included a fair bit of CC functionality, I can turn most on/off parameters on or off and some up/down parameters (that make sense) eg master vol, wah etc I can control with a midi CC expression pedal.
Midi channels are about establishing communication between gadgets, midi messages are then transmitted over those "links". What messages are sent (eg patch change, on/off, up/down) and how they are interpreted depends on the gadgets and you need to line up all the ducks.
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I saw in the R1 manual you can also send 5 different program changes on different midi channels.But the easiest way to do it is to use the midi mapping on the mp-1.
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Thanks guys. . Thanks rnolan for all that typing :)
Ok understanding some more which is good.
So are the R1 patches (say patch 36) actually more than just a preset but actually a program? that i could edit with multiple commands?.. i guess im trying understand where do i create these so called programs on the R1. Currently each number correlates to the same preset on the main g2 unit. So are the numbers im seeing on the r1 preset recalls or program recalls that just happen to correspond to the same preset number.
Lol confusion much. Lol
Or do i need to change the mode? Of the R1 to access programs instead of recalling presets.
Rnolan..do you come to sydney much? I might need you to come round and show me lol
I can see the benefit of simplifying the midi mapping by doing it on the mp1. I might start with that.
Youd think with an IT background this would be easy to comprehend!
Thanks guys
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Well download the manual and look at chapter 6
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On the to do list for tonight! Thanks.
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Hey Gents,
Lets keep things simple for GB, since he isn't using a lot of rack gear here. All he has is the Controller, the G2, and the MP-1 in his rack.
Richard brings up a good point that I forgot to mention, and that is about how some companies use MIDI commands from 0-127, while others use 1-128. In the case of Lexicon, I believe they use 0-127 so this is correct that the program changes need to offset by one for the ADA gear, since they used 1-128.
I don't use the R1 myself, because I have a Voodoo Labs Ground Control. The Ground Control lets me send independent MIDI program changes to each individual MIDI device on it's own MIDI channel, up to a total of 8 devices. However, I did find out that this isn't a perfect system through my experimentation with this function. There seems to be a signal 'bleed' between MIDI channels, that causes a conflict in the devices receiving the commands. This seems to happen when I have the system set up using MIDI channels that are next to each other e.g. 1-2-3-4. So to correct this, I either use all the Odd number channels, or the Even number channels on the Ground Control, e.g. 1-3-5-7, or 2-4-6-8.
At this point, I have to disagree with Richard's recommendation to set the MP-1 to listen on all 16 channels, or as it's referred to in the MP-1 manual, "Omni Mode. This will only make the MP-1 try to respond to every command coming from the foot controller, and you don't want that. You only want the MP-1 to change when it gets it's own command to do so, the same goes for the G2.
The best thing to do is read the manual on the R1, and see if it can send commands on individual MIDI channels. If it can, then pick one channel for the MP-1, and a different channel for the G2. I don't know if the R1 is capable of offsetting the MIDI program change commands by one,(1), to compensate for the MIDI table difference between Lexicon and ADA, but I don't believe it does. Lexicon made their gear to operate their own brand exclusively. What this means is; when you want the MP-1 to go to program #36, you'll have to select program change command on the pedal to send command #37.
Basically, the way I imagine you'd want to use this setup is to select a tone in the MP-1 for your guitar, and cut the effects in and out when you need them. The easiest way to do this is to setup the MP-1 with the tone you want for the guitar, and program it with that tone in two configurations, one with the effects loop on, and one with the effects loop off. Most likely, what people do is edit the MP-1 and have a program with identical settings, but the only difference is that the effects loop is on in one program and off in the other, and they just switch between the two programs to put the effect in or take it out. Example: You have a cool lead tone in program 36 in the MP-1 with the effects loop on, but then you want the same tone but without the effect, so you edit the MP-1 and turn the effects loop off and save that in one of the inactive MP-1 locations, like program 45. Then you just switch between the two locations to get the effect or not. This only works if you are using the effects loop in the MP-1. If you are not using the loop and you are using the preamp outputs into the G2, then you have to program the G2 to bypass the effects to cut them out when you don't want them. I'm not sure if the R1 has an effects bypass button, but if it does, then this would be a much more simple option.
@ Richard, As a MP-2 user, you already know if you are broadcasting MIDI change commands in "omni" mode, with every MIDI change command, the MP-2 displays "MIDI Prgm Error" every time it sees erroneous commands, even though it responds to it's change commands :lol:
Harley 8)
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Hey Harley, my midi setup is very simple so I've never seen the warning. I have ADA MXC (1 expression & 1 quad switch so standard pedal pack) > MP2 midi in (and pick up power with 7 pin lead). MP-2 midi through > QV midi in (this is a original QV, no CC capabilities just patch change). Then I adjust the QV midi mapping to go to (mostly the same) the QV program I want when I select a MP2 patch. Moreover, all my MP2 patches (I use) are on one bank (so I don't have to bank up/down when playing). The CC commands coming from the MXC are for the MP2 (stereo master vol (which I use all the time), tremolo on/off (occasionally) is about all I use). So for me having the MP2 on Omni mode doesn't matter as all the commands are destined for it and the patch change commands are passed through to the QV. Yes the CC commands will also be passed through and just get ignored by the QV.
But you make a salient point particularly if you are using a unit specific pedal and the unit to control the world, or a groovy midi controller with which you want to control a bunch of different things (relatively independently of one another).
Hey GB, you could also think of midi channels as VLANs (since you know about IT stuff) because that's what they really are. It's just simple networking and the layer 3 protocol is midi instead of the typical TCP, UDP, RTP SNMP etc packets. I get up to Sydney from time to time, happy to catch up :thumb-up: , see PM
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Hey Richard,
I use the MXC with one of my MP-2's and I don't have issues with that, since they communicate on the same MIDI channel. However, when I'm using the Ground Control, and I have several different brands of rack gear in the MIDI chain, that all changes. It's less complicated and less likely to cause conflicts if each different piece of gear communicates with the controller on it's own channel. I don't even set the Ground Control to "omni" mode, although that probably wouldn't hurt anything.
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Thanks guys
I found the above quite useful. I think I have the concepts down to some point and now its just applying it
I found the below links also helpfull
http://www.stecrecords.com/?RecordId=513
http://musicplayers.com/tutorials/guitars/2006/0306_MIDIFootControllers.php#programming
From what i see the R1 configures 'setups' which can contain multiple midi msgs on mulitple channels which is what i want.. . I had a crack at it..didnt get very far but starting to understand the layout. I was too tired from work (looking for a new one!) to pursue with it so ill keep at it.
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That pedal is so complicated, but hell all lexicon stuff is.I still don't understand everything in my MPX-1.
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That pedal is so complicated, but hell all lexicon stuff is.I still don't understand everything in my MPX-1.
+1 :thumb-up:
I do understand how to set up things in the MPX-1. I had to figure that out to get to the useful effects that are in it. It took me a while to get the program "chains" together to access the programs that go beyond the 128 numbers. That's just a Lexicon term for internal mapping.
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That pedal is so complicated, but hell all lexicon stuff is.I still don't understand everything in my MPX-1.
Haha yes im discovering this. What hope do i have if the gurus find it complicated! !! Haha all good. Looks very configurable. Ill only use a small yet powerful part of it. I have a midi mate but i like the size of the r1 and eveything is built in..includes relay switching etc. And already setup to adjust effects on the fly. . So really just need to see how i can incorporate mp1 patches in the mix.
Im trying to work out if i can simply just reassign switches to give me bank up and down on the mp1 but still retain g2 effects buttons. Ill keep reading and trying.
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Hey GB,
There you go don't give up. IF you get stumped on some of the terminology that Lexicon uses, give me a shout. I've become somewhat familiar the way they do things in the MPX-1, and if worse comes to worse, I'l get my manual out and between the two of us, we should be able to sort it all out.
Harley 8)
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In many ways it's quite straight forward, it's complicated because it's so configurable (and while most gadgets support midi, they do it in their own way (as in where (and what/how) you can change), so you have to decide what you want to do and then the best (easiest for you, and the particular gadgets you have) way to set it up.
One complication here is the R1 was fundamentally designed to work with the G2 (so that bit's probably easy ? and aspects of it G2 specific ?), but it can also do other midi stuff..(or does that come from the G2?). As opposed to say a FCB1010 or Ground Control which are midi controller pedals (with a strong guitar orientated bent, they exist to control midi guitar rigs in a highly configurable way).
And Lest we forget where midi came from and the sequencing programs for the Atari (Creator, Notator, QBase) where we used the PC to record and play the drum machine and keyboard etc. And this is when it was essential to have each device on its own midi channel (Alesis drum machine on ch 1, KorgM1 keyboard on ch 2 etc). And as Harley says, it's also handy to have each midi device assigned its own midi channel, particularly if you have quite a few and want them to do specific things. But Harley is driving it from his ground control, a midi controller pedal, which is being a cut back version of what the Atari computers (with sequencing programs) did (my ADA MXC is an even more cut back version).
There's also allot of overlap, you can configure things in various places and achieve the same result. So you have to decide where is best to do it for your setup.
So first thing is define exactly what you want to do ie I want MP1 patch xx and G2 patch yy etc.
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Hey Richard,
From what I'm understanding about the R1, is that is is similar to the Ground Control in the respect that it can also control MIDI devices on separate channels like the Ground Control. At least, that's the impression I'm getting, and that would make it handy to assign specific program change commands to each device. That Ground Control and the MXC/Quad/CCP setup, are basically the same things, with the Ground Control having the added features of being able to assign MIDI program change commands to independent channels vs, just sending commands on one channel, and it can also be programmed to compensate for the difference in MIDI program tables from different manufacturer's, (0-127/1-128), so you're always sending the correct command to each device. It also controls up to four GCX Loop Switchers, but that is done internally, and has nothing to do with MIDI. So they are essentially the same in that respect.
I looked into the MPX-G2 when it came out and decided I didn't need anything like that personally, because my understanding of it is that it is basically the MPX-1 with an added pre-amp section for tone shaping the guitar, so it can give your guitar the basic clean/overdrive/distortion tones into the front of the signal path before adding the MPX-1 multi-effects at the end of it. Since I already owned the MPX-1, and I already had all of the ADA preamps, which is where my tones come from, I passed it by. I use the ADA's because I wanted to eliminate the need for overdrive/distortion pedals.
The way Lexicon structures the signal paths within these units is where things can get a bit tricky, and that's where editing can be a pain in the a$$, because it 's easy to get confused. They give you a lot of parameters to work with, and you have to mentally keep track of which section you are actually trying to edit, or you end up with something you don't want. I found it very helpful to focus on one section at a time with the Lexicon gear just to simplify the editing sessions.
The other thing about the Lexicon gear from that period, is that you have 250 memory locations for saving effects configurations, but with MIDI, you can only access 128 of them. (In the case of Lexicon 0-127). This is where the Program Chains comes into play with the Lexicon gear. Essentially, this is an internal mapping feature in the Lexicon, that lets you access the programs that are stored in the locations above 128 in the device memory. The way they do it is to let you program up to 10 effect locations in a "Chain" and these can be assigned in a bank that you can use your MIDI controller to access them with. That's where things get a little crazy with Lexicon. If they didn't have such great sounding Reverbs, I would have walked away from that whole mess! :lol:
Lexicon does have some of the most pristine Reverbs with transparent delays that I've ever heard in any applications, and their 480 Prime Flange, (taken from the 480 LARC), is out of this world. Too bad I could never afford one of those, at $15,000.00 I'd be a producer, not a guitar player!
Harley 8)
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That pedal is so complicated, but hell all lexicon stuff is.I still don't understand everything in my MPX-1.
Haha yes im discovering this. What hope do i have if the gurus find it complicated! !! Haha all good. Looks very configurable. Ill only use a small yet powerful part of it. I have a midi mate but i like the size of the r1 and eveything is built in..includes relay switching etc. And already setup to adjust effects on the fly. . So really just need to see how i can incorporate mp1 patches in the mix.
Im trying to work out if i can simply just reassign switches to give me bank up and down on the mp1 but still retain g2 effects buttons. Ill keep reading and trying.
Have you looked at pages 6-1 through 6-4 of the R1 manual? Try creating one setup as described there, using one MIDI channel for the G2 and another for the MP-1.
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Great info and discussion. Thanks guys
Rnolan.. as harley has mentioned. The R1 is similar to the ground control. Can be configured to do multiple things
Guitarbuilder. Yes this is where im reading and has an example in there tho unclear on a few things so i might post a few things im unclear with for you guys to help with. I think once i can master this example i will be good to go
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Great info and discussion. Thanks guys
Rnolan.. as harley has mentioned. The R1 is similar to the ground control. Can be configured to do multiple things
Guitarbuilder. Yes this is where im reading and has an example in there tho unclear on a few things so i might post a few things im unclear with for you guys to help with. I think once i can master this example i will be good to go
Just give the word, I'm always happy to help in any way I can. :thumb-up:
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Great info and discussion. Thanks guys
Rnolan.. as harley has mentioned. The R1 is similar to the ground control. Can be configured to do multiple things
Guitarbuilder. Yes this is where im reading and has an example in there tho unclear on a few things so i might post a few things im unclear with for you guys to help with. I think once i can master this example i will be good to go
Just give the word, I'm always happy to help in any way I can. :thumb-up:
Thank you (and all) .. you may regret that offer haha.
Time is limitted at the moment so let me try going through chapter 6 again and let the questions begin!
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Thank you (and all) .. you may regret that offer haha.
Time is limitted at the moment so let me try going through chapter 6 again and let the questions begin!
Not at all...I'll get my MPX-1 manual out tomorrow and re-read about the program structure. It would only serve to strengthen my understanding of it even better. There just may be a few things that differ between that and the G2, but should be basically the same.
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rough day at work today, hope everyones day was better and at least doing this :headbanger: before i go to sleep i thought i would post a quick update.
Ok some success!!! starting to understand what the terminology is referring to eg. program change vs a bank change.
So I was able to change the "mode" of the R1 for Setups. Im on mode 5 now but From what i understand the mode is how the foot controller operates.
Here are the modes, i wonder if anyone can just dumb it down a little for me as im getting confused between the differences:
A Setup consists of as many as 8 MIDI Program Change messages, 16
Controller On/Off messages, 1 Song Select message and 1 relay state. The
MPX R1 can be programmed with as many as 100 Setups.
To activate Setups or Direct Device Control from Program mode you must select
4, 5 or 6 as a setting for the PL (Program Load) parameter in Edit mode. This
parameter allows you to select one of the following six options as a master mode
for program load behavior:
1 Banks
2 Direct Access
3 Banks/Direct Access
4 Banks/Direct Device ------ i think when i selected this mode by playing around it meant i could directly recall a preset from the ADA or G2
5 Setups/Direct Access
6 Setups/Direct Device
4 Banks/Direct Device uses the standard bank loading scheme on a single
MIDI channel selected in Edit Program Mode. Pressing and holding the FX
button (from either Program or FX Mode) until the LED blinks and d-d flashes
on the MPX R1 display activates Direct Device Control. Pressing FX again
reverts to the standard bank loading scheme.
5 Setups/Direct Access activates Setup Mode. In this mode, all MIDI Program
Changes are transmitted within Setups. Pressing and holding the FX button
takes you into a version of Direct Access Mode which gives you direct access
only to Setup load. Pressing FX again reverts to Setup Mode.
6 Setups/Direct Device activates Setup Mode. In this mode, all MIDI Program
Changes are transmitted within Setups. Pressing and holding the FX button
(from either Program or FX Mode) until the LED blinks and d-d flashes on the
R1 display activates Direct Device Mode. Pressing FX again reverts to Setup
Mode.
I was then able to configure a program where by button 1 on the footpedal talks to midi channel 2 (ADA MP1) and send bank change (preset 127 as an example). YAY!
initially i had programmed to send bank message 127 and it kept changing to the wrong number (like 27 and not 127). i was getting confused with the setup parameters where it asks for Programs per bank for the target device. I didnt understand what this meant so i played around and set it to 128 (ada mp1 has 128 presets) and it worked. by default was set at 100.
Anyway its a start.. and when i hit the fx button i have access to all the effects loaded on the G2 preset (still sitting at 36). I can turn any of them on or off which is exactly what i wanted to be able to do.
Now i have only achieved in setting up Program 1 on button 1 to change the ADA preset. I still havent understood or worked out how do i also change the G2 preset in that one setup or program.
Im close though. It says it can configure multiple messages on multiple channels im just not yet comprehending how thats done just yet.
This is what i want to do (or operate when on stage):
First Song:
Press button 1 (program 1) which switches to clean ada preset #123 on midi channel 2 and G2 effects patch #36 on midi channel 1
From there as im playing a song i can push the Fx button which changes the foot controller in FX mode and i can press on or off what effects i want thats loaded in the patch .. for whatever reason .. maybe i dont want reverb on .. OR maybe i want to engage the built in wah or something mid song.
Now in the middle of the song is a guitar solo.
Press button 2 for Lead "Program" which will then switch to lead gain preset #125 on ada and maybe for this program stay with the same G2 preset #36 but could be whatever effects patch. (thats a whole other mine field of possibilities lol)
then solo over. i switch back to program button 1 for clean.
It could be that each program is a specific sound (relating to a song or band). Eg if im doing covers. Program 1 could be ACDC (crunch ada preset with reverb only patch). Program 2 could be 80s hair band lead. Program 3 could be 80s hair band clean with chorus etc.
So anyway Im half way there. Making sense now. I will play again with it during the week to see HOW i get a second midi message in the 1 program.
Im sure its just knowing what the term is called so i can reference it in the manual. i couldnt see it specifically under chap 6 even though thats the chapter for multiple midi messages on different channels.
Thanks guys!
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Hey Harley, thanks for the explanation, really helped :thumb-up: , and I agree with you about Lexicon reverbs, they are just the best I've ever heard...
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Hi gb,
Okay, let me first try to explain what you're looking at with reference to Setups and Banks.
A set of parameters from your System Mode, including Audio parameters, Modes, MIDI, and your current Database Sorting method are collectively called "Setups." Somewhere in your manual, there should be a table that shows you what the default Setup is from the factory. It's all internal system settings for your G2. You'll have to become very familiar with your G2 to edit these settings, but most of them you probably won't use. You will probably use the Controller setting in there when you are programming your foot pedals for Continuous Control, and you may need to adjust your Program Change in MIDI, but it should already be set to "On" with pgm+ and pgm- set to "Off."
IF your G2 is like my MPX-1, then it has 3 internal Banks to access all the programs stored in it, (meaning if you have 250 program locations in your G2).
The Program memory is organized into 3 banks as follows:
Program Bank 1 - Preset programs 1-100
Program Bank 2 - Preset programs 101-200
Program Bank 2 - User programs 201-250
If Lexicon is consistent with the G2 and the MPX-1 then Controller 32 is used to select the banks.
There should also be three 128 element MIDI maps stored internally. Program Change 0-127 can be mapped to any program. When your G2 was shipped, it should have been loaded with the following defaults:
Map 1,2,or 3
MIDI 1 = Program 1
MIDI 128 = Program 128
Pgm+ and Pgm- will load the next higher or lower program in the map.
When you were trying to access program 127, you were in Bank 1 which is why it didn't recognize the "1" in front of the 27. You somehow managed to switch to Bank 2 which then allowed you to to go above program 100. It sounds to me like the R1 has these Banks in it's internal memory.
To program for transmitting on different MIDI channels, I believe you'll have to go into the setup mode in the R1 and configure which channels you want to transmit on. It should give you these options in the R1 manual. Then you should theoretically, have your MIDI cables plugged in as follows: R1 MIDI Out--> to MPX G2 MIDI In. MPX G2 MIDI Thru-->to ADA MIDI In. Both devices should respond to MIDI commands from the R1 on their respective channels. Just be sure you set each device to the correct MIDI channel you assign on the R1.
Now, I've never used the R1, or even read the manual on it, but since it allows you to transmit on more than one MIDI channel, then it should give you a way to identify each MIDI device you are sending commands to. On my Ground Control, I can enter each MIDI device I have connected to it, and which channel I'm transmitting to it on. Then when I go to configure a setup for a specific tone/effects to each device, I will go through the entire MIDI menu, and choose the Program Change# I want to send to each device, then it will go to each GCX unit if I have any attached, so I can choose which loop I want opened or closed, then it will ask me to choose a button on the foot controller to save all this to. The R1 should give you something similar when you are configuring your rig for a song. You may need to setup 2-3 buttons on the pedalboard for a song. From your post above, I'm getting the impression you can set up 8 combinations on your R1 in one "bank." Now don't get this reference confused with the Banks I mentioned in the G2.
On any conventional MIDI foot controller, there are usually 10 presets to choose from, with Bank Up, and Bank Down buttons off to the side. Your default when you power on the pedal should be at bank "0" and you can choose 1-9 which will have all your MIDI devices change to their respective programs when you press each button. Many players will use only a handful of tones and effects, and they can program all of that in one bank. Usually a couple of clean tones, a few gritty tones, and a few lead tones, with or without effects, your choice. As you select these presets on the foot controller, it will show you which one you;ve selected on the LED screen (1-9), but to go above that number you have to select bank up, which will then go to bank (1), now all your preset selections will have the number "1" in front of it. Many players who are in different bands will use different banks for different bands, because they have completely different sounds saved in those, or they will use a different rig that that particular bank is for.
I believe that most of what you are trying to achieve can be done in the R1 as far as setting up for songs, and sets when playing out. You'll have to have your ADA and Lexicon set up with the tones and effects you want to use, and saved in each device, then it's just a matter of saving the combinations in the R1 to recall at the press of a button. Here is a tip that helps me when I'm editing in my MPX-1 and setting up on my foot controller for specific songs; have a scratch tablet and a pencil handy. Make a list of everything you need from your gear for a song, and we'll refer to each item on the list as a "task." As you go through the Lexicon and pick your guitar tone, and effect(s), check off each task as you complete it. That will help you stay focused as you go through each item, one step at a time. As you become more experienced with the Lexicon, you'll be able to do it in your sleep.
Since you didn't mention anything about Program Chains in your post above, I'm guessing Lexicon has another name for configuring combinations of tones and effects in the G2.
I don't want to go into too much info here, but it seems like I did anyway :lol: Just try to take this in and see if it helps.
Harley 8)
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Wow thanks harley!! As i was reading your reply it reminded me to ask... you mentioned controller 32 is used to select te banks. As part of the setups one of the parameters ask if i want to use 0,32 or 032. I didnt know what this means. Can you go into a bit of detail on this specifically. What is a controller referring to and why is it 32 as an example..i see in the manual says i cannhave a few controllers..is the R1 a controll. ill continue reading
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Ok read through. Thanks for time to type all that. Makes sense. Yes i worked out the banks and understood.
Good tip about having different bands under different banks and also to lay it all out.
But if i understand correctly, i still need a" program" patch which holds the all device changes correct?. Im interpretting this in a hierarchical way. ?
Honestly a little excited that im understanding. Ive only recently been asked to fill in a few easy coverbands which tones vary so really need to utilize my gear to work for me.
Edit.. im sure ive seen the term prgm chains in tge G2 menu
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Hi gb,
Yes, the manual does refer to controller 32, and I believe it is a system controller message that would be in Setups. I'll have to read my manual a bit more to find out for sure. Right now, I'm getting ready for work so I'll get to that when I get home.
Your program "patch" will be what you store in the R1 in any specific preset bank. That's how you'll recall which combination of pre-amp tones and effects you'll want to use in any given situation.
If you have Program Chains in the G2, then this will allow you to select any of the presets in the G2's memory and add them as "links" in the chain. Then, when you want a certain group of effects to switch between, you'll be able to pgm+ or pgm- through the chain with your R1 controller while your playing. That's why I suggested writing it down on paper how you want to organize it.
Harley 8)
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Hi gb,
Okay, I got into the manual to try to figure out what in hell they were talking about. Here's what I've found out; the Controller 32 they refer to is a MIDI controller. This is in the Dynamic MIDI section and in the Implementation Chart. So if I understand this correctly, you can assign MIDI controller 32 to a footswitch, and toggle through all 3 MIDI maps. Then your R1, can select 0-127 through each map, which doesn't make sense, since there are only 100 locations in the first two maps and 50 in the third.
Theoretically, if you can toggle into a map, you should be able to call up any program in that map by pressing the location number on your R1 pedalboard. That would seem to make sense.
If the G2 is setup in the same way as the MPX-1, you can create program chains, by building a chain with up to 10 programs in it. Whether you choose some of the programs that are already in the G2, or create your own custom programs which you can save in the User Presets, ( Bank 3 - 201-250), you can add any of these in a program chain, and save it. I'm not sure how many chains you can create in the G2, but in the MPX-1, you can create 10.
After creating a program chain, you can change the way you access the programs by changing the Database sorting options.
To do this you press the Program button on the front panel, (with the Value button off), then press Options. The Options LED will blink and show a screen that looks something like this:
Sort programs
by number
Use the knob or the <and>buttons to eslect any of the main sorting options below:
name
number
source type
(Acoustic, Drums, Guitar, Keyboard, Live PA, Tempo, Sound FX, Vocal)
effect type
(Pitch, Chorus, EQ, Mod, Delay, Reverb: Plate, Hall, Inverse, Gate, Dual)
source & effect type
(any combination of source and effect types)
members of MIDI maps
members of pgm chains
last 10 programs loaded
Press Options again to return to Program mode with the Database sorted to show only those programs that fit the criteria you've selected. If you select any sorting option other than name or number, the displayed selection of programs will be limited to those that fit the category you've selected.
This seems to be by far, the easiest way to get the programs you want to set up in "Patches" to be made available to you quickly.
1) Create or pick the effects you want to use.
2) Save them in Program Chains, (or banks, which is essentially what you are creating).
3) Edit your Database sorting options to "members of program chains."
4) Set up your banks of tones and effects in your R1.
5) Go have a lot of fun playing your guitar, and above all, have another beer :lol:
Harley 8)
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Controller 32 is a bit of a standard when it comes to bank selection.My TC g-force also has it, this way I can scroll to the RAM card I have in it with more presets.
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Thanks guys for the info and explanations.
Im starting to see the power of midi and in particular how complex the lexicon can be or how complex you can make it. For im not particular with too specific details and i tend to use existing presets and only tweak a touch. For the moment anyway until i want more out of the unit.
So i read the manual AGAIN (many times now). and maybe its my lack of experience and terms used in this area but i feel that the manual isnt structured too well or from a user perspective, more so just what features are in there. Again maybe its just the way my brain works. I think its layed out fine but doesnt put anything into perspective in real life situations. Perhaps they could put real examples for different typical scenarios and reference each step to a page where you can learn more about it. Anyway i guess it is "pro" gear for guys who already know this stuff.
Soooo worked it out. I now know how to configure a "setup" which loads an effect patch on the lexicon and preset on the ada mp1. it was quite simple to do, i did it in 15sec once i knew what i was doing haha.
such a simple common feature! now that i have this i can configure a bunch of "setups" for various songs or set lists etc. I might use the example of having a bank for each band.
This is soo cool! Once im comfortable with all of this, i think i would like to understand effects more so i can tweak them. I saw a def leppard tribute band last night and the guitar sounded awesome with all the delay effects etc. So id like to understand these some more and i can use them in my own live situations.
One step at a time.
Thanks again for your help guys. Ill be sure to ask if i run into some snags or require more understanding!!!
next on the list:
- is getting the levels right in the 4 cable method (pre and post)
- and do you guys have a "solo" patch/preset? as in when solo time do you boost your signal and if so how exactly? just volume? extra gain? do you just have what you need in the patch already and just turn the guitar vol down a touch for rhythm and then solo you turn the gtr volume up?
whats the go here? ive never done any of that before and just been that 1 patch guy and just played appropriately to the song with dynamics (play hard or softly) but ive seen guys switch to solo patches etc. ?
what advise or discussion can be had on this topic and say more direct with the gear im using (soldano pre, ada mp1 pre and lexicon g2). what would you recommend i do using this gear? I know the lexicon has built in analog pedals (copies of ts9 , OD etc) .. would i use this? ADA MP1 is midi so maybe just a seperate patch that has a little more volume? the soldano pre isnt midi so its a 1 trick pony. .maybe a pedal in front to boost (from the lexicon?..but when ive tried that it just gets all feedbacky and noisy).
suggestions? thoughts?
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Hi gb,
Fortunately with the Lexicon gear, many of the factory presets are very usable with little or no tweaking. (I'm referring to the MPX-1 in this case, so I imagine the MPX effects section of your G2 would be similar in that respect).
I completely agree that the user manual is very lacking in the important details that someone would need as a newcomer to Lexicon effects. The MPX series, is much different from the older LXP line which it replaced. I have a LXP-15 II, and the programming is much less complex and straight forward. It does take some prior knowledge with MIDI-based equipment, and other Lexicon gear to understand the MPX gear, but there is still a learning curve for the experienced.
In regards to your query about having a solo preset, yes, many people do that, and I'm one of them. I usually take a tone that I'm using in a program patch and bump the Master in my ADA preamp up anywhere from 3-10 db, depending on the actual tone I have programmed in and/or the style of music I happen to be playing. Some need more of a boost, others less. But this is because I'm using my preamps as all of the main tones for the guitar. I do not have any type of DSP's with guitar based effects like stomp boxes programmed into them. Each of my effects devices are just dedicated to specific effects like Chorus, Flange, Delay, Harmonizer, and Reverb. So for me, it's more practical to use the preamp for the boost, since all the clean, crunch, overdrive, and distortion tones come from there.
In your case, you can use your preamps if you like, of you can create a preset for solos in the G2 using the stomp box effects in there, and you can adjust the output level from the G2 as another means of doing this. You have a few more options to do this than I do, and it all depends on what sounds good to your ears. This is where you'll have to sit down with your gear and get into some experimentation on your own. Try a bunch of different ways of doing that with your effects, and also, try to do it with the guitar volume backed off on your rhythm, but turned up for the solo. That can also give you a whole new range of dynamics for your solo by itself.
There is no "best" way, or "one" way of doing this, there are a lot of ways to do what you want, and it all boils down to taking the time to find out what works best for you. Playing the guitar, is a unique and personal experience for each one of us here, and our playing defines us as individuals just like out personalities do. Our playing is just an extension of who we are.
Have a marvelous time experimenting and creating, and playing your guitar!
Harley 8)
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Ok cool!!
Still getting familiar with terms..but i used the post gain mix level on the g2 to increase the volume by the suggested db you mentioned. I think i did 4db or something.
Its amazing how it feels to have that understanding of your gear. Im doing as suggested..different banks for different bands s no confusion on my part. I wrote them down.. heaps i wanna do but ill keep it simple and keep a cheat sheet so i know how each ia configured. What i did notice and i love about the lexicon..is that a clean patch can bypass any preamp and just go straight to the Poweramp or to the console (with a speaker sim).. this is great for me cause im not a fan of the soldano clean.. its sterile.. but a few effects and straight to the PA sounds rich and full. Of course the ada mp1 has awesome SS cleans just the same but no need for a clean preset if iget what i want direct.. anyway ..finding many things usefulll and configurable.
One thing i wonder. . Without using a amp switcher or patch loop..can i use 2 mono pre amps at the same time with the G2..ie one in L and one in R.. actually no.. it would need 2 sends wouldnt it.. i was trying to see if i could hook both up considering the guitar input is via the g2.
Anyway next is getting levels right..i seem to be clipping (red light) on the g2.. and noticed when i roll off the volume on gtr there is a lag in guitar response (not when guitar vol is up) .. when i bypass effects/g2 everything is fine.. i wonder if thats cause of the effects.. or whether levels arent correct in 4ch mode. Ill run through the manual again.
I think the mpx1 and g2 are the same (i can confirm prgam chains are there) but the g2 just has the stomp box copies
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Hi gb,
I'm glad you are getting what you are looking for out of your gear, and I agree, that sense of accomplishment is an awesome feeling when everything comes together!
It's a good idea to have all your presets and programs written down on paper, just in case something happens and all your program memories get wiped out. It's not something that happens often, but I have had situations in the past where goofy electrical sources in some bars did cause my gear to become un-responsive, even with a power conditioner in the rack. A quick power off, and power on again will usually reboot everything, but just in case it doesn't...
As for the idea of using two preamps in parallel, I can't answer that, since you are using a signal path that is opposite of how I use mine. I'm not exactly sure what your signal path is to and from each device, but your input is in the G2 and the preamps are fed from the G2, so it might work, The only thing I see that may be a problem is that you might encounter phasing between the two preamps.
My basic set up is to use the preamp for my main sound and my effects are in the effects loops with the Lexicons typically at the end of the effects chain, because that's where I want my Reverb effect to be in relation to any other effects in the signal chain. The only other variation I've used is to have the Lexicon between the preamp out and the poweramp in, when I'm only going to use Reverb-based effects from the Lexicon. I just stick with what is known as a "daisy-chain" signal path since that works for me.
I did try to use two preamps in parallel one time, and had a problem with phasing between the MP-1 and MP-1 Classic/MP-2. The MP-1 paralleled with either of these other two had an undesirable phasing effect happening, but the Classic and MP-2 didn't do this. Since I was in a rehearsal situation at the time, I didn't have time to isolate the problem, and later I removed the MP-1 from the setup.
As for your solo boost set up, you might just have to adjust the input gain for the boosted signal at the G2 for the solo preset. I've never used the 4 cable method, so I'm no help there.
Yes, I thought the MPX-1 and G2 were basically the same with the only difference being the stomp box modelling. That's why I didn't get a G2.
Harley 8)
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Thanks mate.. really starting to understand this beast on a basic level and its awesome.
I have a question for eveyone. Ill keep it in this thread asit relates to the G2 somewhat.
Im still learning my theory but can someone tell me what harmony is this and how to produce it.
So if im playing the top guitar.. what harmony is the bottom guitar... looks the like g2 can harmonise.. id love to replicate the sound with one guitar.. but ineed helo with the theory. Key is d major but Looks the solo jumps between Key is D major and minor
(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h160/gbx78/20170322_201138_zpsg9thld2e_edit_1490174004482_zpsdyji3lmr.jpg)