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Author Topic: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?  (Read 11880 times)

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El Chiguete

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Since most will know I'm now very happy using my multieffects processor and I'm now experimenting on some stuff I didnt pay much attention before. Well I was very pleased on how I put a compressor before my preamp to get singing sustain on solos BUT I then started noticing that on my normal rhythm patch it could be used too! But I started asking myself Who uses a compresor allways on for their tones? OK so before you say anything I know that many people have them on their pedalboards like this but Im talking about famous rock players with good distortion tones. I don't remember seeing the rigs of our idol players and them saying that they use it allways on (most just use them either on solos or on clean stuff) or others dont have them at all... specially our classic heavy metal bands.

So my question is, since in the studio the engeniers do all kinds of tricks to get the sound right, does something similar gets done by their sound guys? I meen if I dont see a compressor in their rig maybe they use one thru the sound guy? Its strage to think that but I'm just looking at stuff I never experimented before and Im curious  :banana-dance:
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Soloist

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

I used to use a boss comp on my pedal board pre distortion, for some tracks it was always on some for a solo boost. I now use the one in my gmajor2 for all my newer (5150) EVH tones as well as others (even though now it is post distortion.) David Gilmore uses one often with his distorted tones (i.e. Sorrow, Dogs of War). :bow:
I do not find it useful for thrash other than maybe intros or leads, but for hard rock or 80's metal it adds that extra layer of compression to the distorted tone similar to tone stacking 2 distortion pedals.

As for your question sound engineers will add comp in studio (rnolan can attest to this) but live it's either on your pedalboard, in your rack multi fx or like Kirk Hammett control by a tech under the stage who controls all but your wah.
Try all different settings if you find a tone you like who's to say its wrong. Let your ears be the judge :thumb-up:
My typical settings are: Threshold -6  Ratio 1.80:1   Attack 2.0ms  Release 70ms  Gain 0
« Last Edit: Time Format by Soloist »
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rabidgerry

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

Hi El,

man I have dabbled with compressors on and off since the dawn of my first FX unit landing at my house!!

I went through a year or two with one unit where I used an external compressor in front.  This was because I didn't get enough of that "spongey" feel from what ever it was I was using at the time for distortion.

I stopped using a compressor for this the day I discovered boosts.  Essentially a compressor can be used for the same thing.  But I no longer use a compressor now, well not very often.  However if I ever have a patch that  has less gain, and I feel it's a little stiff, I will put a compressor infront to change the feel.  So I will only set the threshold to catch the guitar signal and no more, I will not set it very low, so I will not be amplifying the really quiet stuff in the guitar signal.  Then I will adjust the attack (my compressor is a boss and it has this control although not all do).  I adjust the attack to let in a little bit of bite if I feel it's lacking.  However sometimes it can be the opposite, sometimes I want to soften it in which case I will lower the attack.

Then there is the level control of the compressor.  Generally if I use it I will have it matched the same as the signal level coming in.  However it works as a boost as well and you can set it higher so it pushes your press into more distortion.  I don't do that normally but years ago I did.

As Soloist was saying it's used a lot in audio production, but I have never heard of anyone compressing hi-gain distorted guitar sounds in the DAW.  A distorted guitar tone is already compressed.  The more gain you use to distort the sound essentially is compressing and dynamincs become less evident.  This is why to much gain makes your sound go to mush where as if you dial it back you get a lot more "cut through" because there is dynamics.

In Daw I would compress a bass guitar, but never distorted electric guitar.  I would also compress overall mixes but this different use from what you where asking.  You are only wondering if people use it constantly for their main guitar tone right?  Well I don't actually know any big players who do it although I know I used to so it's not like it's a strange concept or anything.  If it works for you then it's important to keep it regardless of anyone else.

Quite a lot of acoustic guys use compressors live.
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El Chiguete

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

Just to add a point, the type of compressor that I'm using now is my multi fx unit its supose to recreate the Dyna Comp, so I use it more for kick ass sustain than squashy compression... so its like a sustain boost :)
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rnolan

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, very good explanation of how to use a compressor  :thumb-up: Absolutely on the money IMHO! Now I'll get a little more technical. Fundamentally, we need to understand what a compressor does, and to some extent how it does it (and most important, how this affects your gain structure (which RG covered in his post)).  In this context, a compressor is a device that modifies the dynamic range (lowest level to highest level) of an audio signal.  You could describe it as "squish" the signal, so lower level sounds are louder and higher level sounds are softer (the result of this can be turned up or down in the mix (output of unit, desk settings), but the dynamic range has been reduced (by the compression ratio (and threshold, where does the compression start to work/affect the signal))).
Rule of thumb (audio engineer 101), less is better!! I'm not a big fan of compressors, but they have their place as a very useful tool (unfortunately not well understood, and often used badly).
Why do you want to use a compressor (live sound, set to peak limit so you don't blow speakers), in a mix typically coz you want things to sit nice and tight together (kick, bass), vocals (whatever). Guitar, as RG says why, the tubes are doing it for you, well not quite the same, tube clipping (while very similar (in some ways) to compression) actually isn't compression. The other thing about compressing guitar (and again similar to using high gain clipped signals) is some use it to make up for sloppy playing (and ditch the dynamics along the way). Hey, grab an acoustic and get your dynamics back  >:D
Putting a compressor up front: so squish the dynamics (signal) coming off the guitar, has output knob so can boost output to preamp input, so louder squished signal now entering preamp ( :dunno: ). If you want to use a compressor for a particular effect, go for it (for me anything more than 1.5:1 is way too much except I'll entertain "absolute" PA peak limiting at 8:1).
All that said. I do use the MP2 compressor for my clean sounds... As RG says, use your ears...
@Soloist, yeah lots of compressors in those days, trying to "squeeze" it onto vinyl.. I still tried to use as little compressor as possible LoL.
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rabidgerry

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

I have to say Richard, and feel free to disagree,  I find it harder to play with higher gain.  It's harder to control.  This is because it is much harder to play cleanly so you have to be super f**king tight or else you get excess shitty string noise and everything else.  Or feedback.  When the gain is up every little thing gets amplified and alot of that can be crap you don't want.  I noticed when I started to play with the gain on 8 rather than 10 suddenly shit was cleaner and easier to play.  Reducing the gain too much however can make it stiffer and harder to play that in that regard where as more gain allows more of that "liquid" feel or as I like to call it "spongey feel".

Just my 50ps worth, although I know some shit playing can be hidden with terrible muddy tones also.
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Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

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rnolan

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, yeah but your playing with clipping, which is a beast in itself to control, not compressing (it's similar (well can have similar effect, but not the same (from what happens to the signal point of view))). Compression (manipulate the signal dynamic) and gain (squeeze as much into a round hole as possible) are quite different (albeit as I said have some similarities). Now you can use a compressors output stage to overload your preamps input stage (much what a distortion pedal does). Playing with higher gain is an art. I learnt it from the get go, no master volume back then, crank it up and go... It squealed like a banshee, I learnt to control it (had little choice really). I can still do that, but thee days I've dialed down the gain and enjoy a different sound stage. What I do find is that rock needs to be at a decent volume  >:D or it sounds shit...
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rabidgerry

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

I didn't disagree about the tech stuff on what is actualy happening even though if it creates a similar effect it doesn't really matter.

I disagree that it's easier to play with hi gain.  Its' not in my opinion.  It takes a lot more effort to not make excessive noise when on hi gain than it does on lower gain.  You can get away with excess movement using lower gain than you can with hi gain as hi gain picks it all up so your technique has to be really precise or else it comes across sloppy.  And as I mentioned, I also dialed my gain back a bit from the early days when it was all heaped on.  However some messy players blend in with their super hi gain tones and get away with shit I agree.  But then they need to be making all those crap noises that I tend to be careful to avoid when I'm using super hi gain.

The thing that makes rock music sound better loud is fletcher munson curve.  Basically more mids come out as music gets louder.  That's a very simple way of looking at it but essentially it's what you're hearing.

edit hang on Richard didn't you say it was easier to play with hi gain somewhere?  Or that sloppy players can get away with it on hi gain?  Or am I still hung over and imagining things?  If you didn't say that forget my posts.
« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

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Soloist

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

The thing that makes rock music sound better loud is fletcher munson curve.  Basically more mids come out as music gets louder.  That's a very simple way of looking at it but essentially it's what you're hearing.
Basically that's it! :thumb-up:
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rnolan

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, I didn't mean it was easier, it is for me (in someways coz it's what I've always done, so I got used to it very young) more to the point controlling gain is an art (as is getting your gain structure right (for you). It's not easier to play with high gain (sorry if that was you take on what I said), it's actually really hard (but can be done  >:D ). While I'm still comfortable with high gain tones, I'm preferring more mid-gain tones these days.
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rabidgerry

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

check my edit man lol  I might have imagined you said that or implied that, my bad.
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Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

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rnolan

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

The thing that makes rock music sound better loud is fletcher munson curve.  Basically more mids come out as music gets louder.  That's a very simple way of looking at it but essentially it's what you're hearing.
Basically that's it! :thumb-up:
Well no, the Fletcher munhcion curves are about how you ear senses/persieves different frequencies at different amplitudes. When the sound is soft, your ear "hears" the mid range much louder than the bass and treble as you ears are more sensitive to those frequencies at that volume (sound Pressure Level (SPL)). As the level increases, it tends to flatten out (according to your ears), so bass, mid , treb are balanced (=98db), when you go past 98db (which is reasonably loud), it actually reverses so the bass and treble sound louder to your ears than the mids
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rnolan

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

I'd add to that that if you are doing a live gig at say 120 ish dbs  >:D >:D the bass and treble will vastly surpass the mid range, and the mids will need to be cranked up (to balance the sound). Again Audio Engineer 101....stuff

Hey RG sorry if you thought I was having a go at you in any way in my response, definitely not BTW  :thumb-up: . And totally respect your opinions  :wave:
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El Chiguete

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #13 on: Time Format »

Playing with higher gain is an art.

Yes it is! Thats why is so awesome to see guys like Gary Moore play their rigs and have TONS of dynamics and then you read other players saying that they tried his rig on times and it was imposible to tame the feedback and other added noise from all the gain and pure volume of the rig!  :metal:
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rabidgerry

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Re: who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
« Reply #14 on: Time Format »

Well yes Richard, the curve flattens out as you say, and from what I can see of the curve the mids come up, not the bass and trebel.

When I listen to music very quietly it can sound "tinny" not mid rangey.  I percieve the fletcher munson curve as more audible mids when the volume is increased and I suppose bass as well when I think about it.  At least that's what it looks like to me and sounds like.

As for mids live.  I have forgotten how to scoop my guitar tone, I cannot get a decent sound at all these days scooping.  I pile on the mids.  I actually always have as it just sounds better.  Guitar cuts through much better.
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Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
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