ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Non ADA Gear => Effects => Topic started by: El Chiguete on October 11, 2015, 09:16:47 PM
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Since most will know I'm now very happy using my multieffects processor and I'm now experimenting on some stuff I didnt pay much attention before. Well I was very pleased on how I put a compressor before my preamp to get singing sustain on solos BUT I then started noticing that on my normal rhythm patch it could be used too! But I started asking myself Who uses a compresor allways on for their tones? OK so before you say anything I know that many people have them on their pedalboards like this but Im talking about famous rock players with good distortion tones. I don't remember seeing the rigs of our idol players and them saying that they use it allways on (most just use them either on solos or on clean stuff) or others dont have them at all... specially our classic heavy metal bands.
So my question is, since in the studio the engeniers do all kinds of tricks to get the sound right, does something similar gets done by their sound guys? I meen if I dont see a compressor in their rig maybe they use one thru the sound guy? Its strage to think that but I'm just looking at stuff I never experimented before and Im curious :banana-dance:
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I used to use a boss comp on my pedal board pre distortion, for some tracks it was always on some for a solo boost. I now use the one in my gmajor2 for all my newer (5150) EVH tones as well as others (even though now it is post distortion.) David Gilmore uses one often with his distorted tones (i.e. Sorrow, Dogs of War). :bow:
I do not find it useful for thrash other than maybe intros or leads, but for hard rock or 80's metal it adds that extra layer of compression to the distorted tone similar to tone stacking 2 distortion pedals.
As for your question sound engineers will add comp in studio (rnolan can attest to this) but live it's either on your pedalboard, in your rack multi fx or like Kirk Hammett control by a tech under the stage who controls all but your wah.
Try all different settings if you find a tone you like who's to say its wrong. Let your ears be the judge :thumb-up:
My typical settings are: Threshold -6 Ratio 1.80:1 Attack 2.0ms Release 70ms Gain 0
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Hi El,
man I have dabbled with compressors on and off since the dawn of my first FX unit landing at my house!!
I went through a year or two with one unit where I used an external compressor in front. This was because I didn't get enough of that "spongey" feel from what ever it was I was using at the time for distortion.
I stopped using a compressor for this the day I discovered boosts. Essentially a compressor can be used for the same thing. But I no longer use a compressor now, well not very often. However if I ever have a patch that has less gain, and I feel it's a little stiff, I will put a compressor infront to change the feel. So I will only set the threshold to catch the guitar signal and no more, I will not set it very low, so I will not be amplifying the really quiet stuff in the guitar signal. Then I will adjust the attack (my compressor is a boss and it has this control although not all do). I adjust the attack to let in a little bit of bite if I feel it's lacking. However sometimes it can be the opposite, sometimes I want to soften it in which case I will lower the attack.
Then there is the level control of the compressor. Generally if I use it I will have it matched the same as the signal level coming in. However it works as a boost as well and you can set it higher so it pushes your press into more distortion. I don't do that normally but years ago I did.
As Soloist was saying it's used a lot in audio production, but I have never heard of anyone compressing hi-gain distorted guitar sounds in the DAW. A distorted guitar tone is already compressed. The more gain you use to distort the sound essentially is compressing and dynamincs become less evident. This is why to much gain makes your sound go to mush where as if you dial it back you get a lot more "cut through" because there is dynamics.
In Daw I would compress a bass guitar, but never distorted electric guitar. I would also compress overall mixes but this different use from what you where asking. You are only wondering if people use it constantly for their main guitar tone right? Well I don't actually know any big players who do it although I know I used to so it's not like it's a strange concept or anything. If it works for you then it's important to keep it regardless of anyone else.
Quite a lot of acoustic guys use compressors live.
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Just to add a point, the type of compressor that I'm using now is my multi fx unit its supose to recreate the Dyna Comp, so I use it more for kick ass sustain than squashy compression... so its like a sustain boost :)
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Hey RG, very good explanation of how to use a compressor :thumb-up: Absolutely on the money IMHO! Now I'll get a little more technical. Fundamentally, we need to understand what a compressor does, and to some extent how it does it (and most important, how this affects your gain structure (which RG covered in his post)). In this context, a compressor is a device that modifies the dynamic range (lowest level to highest level) of an audio signal. You could describe it as "squish" the signal, so lower level sounds are louder and higher level sounds are softer (the result of this can be turned up or down in the mix (output of unit, desk settings), but the dynamic range has been reduced (by the compression ratio (and threshold, where does the compression start to work/affect the signal))).
Rule of thumb (audio engineer 101), less is better!! I'm not a big fan of compressors, but they have their place as a very useful tool (unfortunately not well understood, and often used badly).
Why do you want to use a compressor (live sound, set to peak limit so you don't blow speakers), in a mix typically coz you want things to sit nice and tight together (kick, bass), vocals (whatever). Guitar, as RG says why, the tubes are doing it for you, well not quite the same, tube clipping (while very similar (in some ways) to compression) actually isn't compression. The other thing about compressing guitar (and again similar to using high gain clipped signals) is some use it to make up for sloppy playing (and ditch the dynamics along the way). Hey, grab an acoustic and get your dynamics back >:D
Putting a compressor up front: so squish the dynamics (signal) coming off the guitar, has output knob so can boost output to preamp input, so louder squished signal now entering preamp ( :dunno: ). If you want to use a compressor for a particular effect, go for it (for me anything more than 1.5:1 is way too much except I'll entertain "absolute" PA peak limiting at 8:1).
All that said. I do use the MP2 compressor for my clean sounds... As RG says, use your ears...
@Soloist, yeah lots of compressors in those days, trying to "squeeze" it onto vinyl.. I still tried to use as little compressor as possible LoL.
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I have to say Richard, and feel free to disagree, I find it harder to play with higher gain. It's harder to control. This is because it is much harder to play cleanly so you have to be super f**king tight or else you get excess shitty string noise and everything else. Or feedback. When the gain is up every little thing gets amplified and alot of that can be crap you don't want. I noticed when I started to play with the gain on 8 rather than 10 suddenly shit was cleaner and easier to play. Reducing the gain too much however can make it stiffer and harder to play that in that regard where as more gain allows more of that "liquid" feel or as I like to call it "spongey feel".
Just my 50ps worth, although I know some shit playing can be hidden with terrible muddy tones also.
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Hey RG, yeah but your playing with clipping, which is a beast in itself to control, not compressing (it's similar (well can have similar effect, but not the same (from what happens to the signal point of view))). Compression (manipulate the signal dynamic) and gain (squeeze as much into a round hole as possible) are quite different (albeit as I said have some similarities). Now you can use a compressors output stage to overload your preamps input stage (much what a distortion pedal does). Playing with higher gain is an art. I learnt it from the get go, no master volume back then, crank it up and go... It squealed like a banshee, I learnt to control it (had little choice really). I can still do that, but thee days I've dialed down the gain and enjoy a different sound stage. What I do find is that rock needs to be at a decent volume >:D or it sounds shit...
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I didn't disagree about the tech stuff on what is actualy happening even though if it creates a similar effect it doesn't really matter.
I disagree that it's easier to play with hi gain. Its' not in my opinion. It takes a lot more effort to not make excessive noise when on hi gain than it does on lower gain. You can get away with excess movement using lower gain than you can with hi gain as hi gain picks it all up so your technique has to be really precise or else it comes across sloppy. And as I mentioned, I also dialed my gain back a bit from the early days when it was all heaped on. However some messy players blend in with their super hi gain tones and get away with shit I agree. But then they need to be making all those crap noises that I tend to be careful to avoid when I'm using super hi gain.
The thing that makes rock music sound better loud is fletcher munson curve. Basically more mids come out as music gets louder. That's a very simple way of looking at it but essentially it's what you're hearing.
edit hang on Richard didn't you say it was easier to play with hi gain somewhere? Or that sloppy players can get away with it on hi gain? Or am I still hung over and imagining things? If you didn't say that forget my posts.
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The thing that makes rock music sound better loud is fletcher munson curve. Basically more mids come out as music gets louder. That's a very simple way of looking at it but essentially it's what you're hearing.
Basically that's it! :thumb-up:
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Hey RG, I didn't mean it was easier, it is for me (in someways coz it's what I've always done, so I got used to it very young) more to the point controlling gain is an art (as is getting your gain structure right (for you). It's not easier to play with high gain (sorry if that was you take on what I said), it's actually really hard (but can be done >:D ). While I'm still comfortable with high gain tones, I'm preferring more mid-gain tones these days.
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check my edit man lol I might have imagined you said that or implied that, my bad.
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The thing that makes rock music sound better loud is fletcher munson curve. Basically more mids come out as music gets louder. That's a very simple way of looking at it but essentially it's what you're hearing.
Basically that's it! :thumb-up:
Well no, the Fletcher munhcion curves are about how you ear senses/persieves different frequencies at different amplitudes. When the sound is soft, your ear "hears" the mid range much louder than the bass and treble as you ears are more sensitive to those frequencies at that volume (sound Pressure Level (SPL)). As the level increases, it tends to flatten out (according to your ears), so bass, mid , treb are balanced (=98db), when you go past 98db (which is reasonably loud), it actually reverses so the bass and treble sound louder to your ears than the mids
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I'd add to that that if you are doing a live gig at say 120 ish dbs >:D >:D the bass and treble will vastly surpass the mid range, and the mids will need to be cranked up (to balance the sound). Again Audio Engineer 101....stuff
Hey RG sorry if you thought I was having a go at you in any way in my response, definitely not BTW :thumb-up: . And totally respect your opinions :wave:
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Playing with higher gain is an art.
Yes it is! Thats why is so awesome to see guys like Gary Moore play their rigs and have TONS of dynamics and then you read other players saying that they tried his rig on times and it was imposible to tame the feedback and other added noise from all the gain and pure volume of the rig! :metal:
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Well yes Richard, the curve flattens out as you say, and from what I can see of the curve the mids come up, not the bass and trebel.
When I listen to music very quietly it can sound "tinny" not mid rangey. I percieve the fletcher munson curve as more audible mids when the volume is increased and I suppose bass as well when I think about it. At least that's what it looks like to me and sounds like.
As for mids live. I have forgotten how to scoop my guitar tone, I cannot get a decent sound at all these days scooping. I pile on the mids. I actually always have as it just sounds better. Guitar cuts through much better.
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In answer to your question - who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
I do. I'm not famous (except in my own mind, and hey, that's all that really matters)
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Hey Dante, well you pretty famous in our minds :thumb-up: . And compressors can be quite useful depending what tone you are wanting. Compression was/is a big part of the RockMan sound.
@RG, the FM curves (a graphical representation of how our/your ears perceives sound at various volumes/amplitudes (sound pressure levels (SPL))) demonstrate that at low levels of amplitude, so even though the sound is balanced (equal amplitude frequency wise) your ear hears (perceives) bass and treb as less than the mids. The curves flatten out at 98db (where all is good and all the frequencies are perceived (by your ears) equally), when you go louder (like most rock bands >:D ~120db or more), the curves reverse and (same signal/frequencies just more amplitude) your ears think the bass and treb are louder (comparatively). So the loudness button on hi fi amps boost bass and treb for lower level/amplitude listening. At high vols you have to adjust accordingly...
@El yeah taming the feedback and the noise is a skill, part of leaning how to play back then >:D
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In answer to your question - who uses a compresor with distorted tones?
I do. I'm not famous (except in my own mind, and hey, that's all that really matters)
Dante give us a run down of your compression use.
Do you use it to soften the feel? Or to add a little more distortion pushing the front going into the pre? Or to help sustain?
I'd say 9/10 I only use compression to change the feel, and along with that I probably get more sustain to but it's all about the spongey liquid feel for me with everything. Its integral that I get that to play the way I want. I do a lot of legato (I think I do hahaha) and I need the feel so as the notes are heard without me having to pick eveyrthing :banana-guitar:
I've an even more mental question for folks! Does anyone use a limiter playing any guitar? I have one on my FX unit and I never know why anyone would use it. Bass players yes by guitarists..................hmmmmmm I dunno.
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Hey RG, well limiters have their uses but I wouldn't use one on guitar, although if you need to limit the input to the next device so you don't blow it out you could use one (bad gain structure though :facepalm: ). We used to (and I'm sure they still do) use a peak limiters on the pa output so we didn't blow speakers (well I didn't, it's an excuse (in some ways) for not so great gain structure etc), but often used to make sure the guys mixing other bands don't blow your speakers, and as I like to run some headroom in the power amps.... they could do it.
So a peak limiter or limiter is just a compressor with a very high ratio, I personally call 8:1 compression peak limiting, but limiters are generally much higher ratios than that (extreme 100:1) (so for every 100 units of gain change, squish it to 1). With a limiter you adjust the threshold at the spot you want to limit at. To do more normal compression, you adjust the threshold lower to include all the signal you want to squish.
I use a little compression on my MP2 clean sounds, for much the same reason you do, spongy/liquid and take some of the bight off, and the attack transients in these preamps are out there... they have so much gain, and when it's clean.. I don't use it on distorted tones, but then they are being tamed a bit by the tubes (not strictly compression but very similar effect).
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Yeah I can't understand why its on my FX pedal to be honest.
I have never used it.
I know some people who say limiting is 4.1 and beyond never mind 8.1!!!!!!
I got some great limiting adice from this:
http://productionadvice.co.uk/using-compression/ (http://productionadvice.co.uk/using-compression/) not really use to you El sorry :dunno:
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I only a comp on my clean patches,actually 2 comps,one to comp the guitar signal (the one in the MP-2)and one after the mp-2 from the G force.
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Hey RG, good article on using compression :thumb-up:
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Hey RG, good article on using compression :thumb-up:
I think so also Richard. And another thing that the author states is about not using too much in all walks of life. I can't help feel though in the audio production world though to many people are blasting great mixes to shred with f**king limiters. f**king Loudness wars really needs to go away. It got stale ten years ago.
But yes I read that article from time to time to refresh thing in my head.
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Dante give us a run down of your compression use.
Do you use it to soften the feel? Or to add a little more distortion pushing the front going into the pre? Or to help sustain?
I'd say 9/10 I only use compression to change the feel, and along with that I probably get more sustain to but it's all about the spongey liquid feel for me with everything. Its integral that I get that to play the way I want. I do a lot of legato (I think I do hahaha) and I need the feel so as the notes are heard without me having to pick eveyrthing
I use a compressor to tighten up clean patches, but as for distorted stuff, it does feel a bit softer on the edges. I use it for more over-the-top processed sounding distortions. I guess a Rockman sound is pretty accurate, it has a silky smoothness to it and I do play it differently. I usually have at least one patch of compressed clean and one compressed crunch in every bank. (I use a bank of patches for each guitar)
It definitely helps if my picking attack varies in a part, evens out the volumes of the notes. I don't much use it for sustain, more for a little smooth edge. Back in the day, I used to stack my gain using a compressor, overdrive, and EQ pedal.
Lately, I've been using a compressor after the distortion in Amplitube, just to give it a boost and to even out the signal
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Hey RG, the article was a good reminder for when compression can be useful and some good tips (rules of thumb). I agree, they have been overused and abused it the quest for the "loudest" CD. I try to keep as much of the original dynamics as I can which tends to mean riding the faders a bit, particularly mixing live. While I agree with the guy that they have their place, they can also lead to lazy mixing (like many a live gig I've been to over the years).