Shielding my friends Rickenbacker copy Bass guitar, just sharing this project with you guys.
I'll add to this as I go along, just started it last night.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-06-25%2021.26.56.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-06-25%2021.26.56.jpg.html)
Not the black carbon paint on there before I put foil on. This black carbon shite is............well shite!!! Also a complete faraday cage cannot be made unless the entire back of pick guard is covered in a metallic surface (i.e copper foil or silver will work but copper is better apparently)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-06-25%2022.43.30.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-06-25%2022.43.30.jpg.html)
The Bridge pickup on this bass is not sheilded by anything. Hence the GODDAM NOISE!! There is no cover to completely cover it. I am going to make a shield. Watch this space Boyos!
Nice work! :thumb-up:
I actually use highly conductive shielding laqueur/Copper Spray (same mil-spec brand like the Contact Cleaner i mentioned in the other thread)....
Easy to apply and does the job....
Quote from: Systematic Chaos on June 26, 2015, 03:06:44 AM
Nice work! :thumb-up:
I actually use highly conductive shielding laqueur/Copper Spray (same mil-spec brand like the Contact Cleaner i mentioned in the other thread)....
Easy to apply and does the job....
Dam you and you military ways of getting stuff the rest of us cannot get!! lol
I think that paint is mega expensive right?
Is it better than foil do you think? The black carbon paint is bullshit and wears off. You use something like this?
http://www.cybershieldinc.com/conductive-shielding-paint/ (http://www.cybershieldinc.com/conductive-shielding-paint/)
I have a few appliances with this stuff inside it.
It´s not the cheapest....but readily available to everybody: http://www.amazon.de/KONTAKT-CHEMIE-EMV-Abschirmlack-5412386775093/dp/B00154KONS (http://www.amazon.de/KONTAKT-CHEMIE-EMV-Abschirmlack-5412386775093/dp/B00154KONS)
so it is. Actually thinking about this, a spray would be a lot messier and awkward than tape. Tape you can just take off as much or as little as you want. If the spray you had came in a tub that would be handy also.
I have used a guitar sheilding paint before, it basically was a clear liquid that had many metal particles ground down and mised within it. It was really conductive but I think foil tape is the best and cheapest. No need to mask the guitar off for spraying or any of that nonsense.
I use the copper foil on every guitar I build; it is far superior to any other option. Do make sure you solder all the seams together to guarantee good continuity. Make sure the bridge is properly connected as well. The very best practice is to terminate all grounds at only one point. Finally, test the installation by measuring the resistance from the amplifier end of the guitar/bass cable to the bridge/strings - it will be a good indication of a job well done.
It seems there are a lot of different sizes of foil,what do you guys use?
I use the three sizes sold by StewMac:
http://www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_Electronics/Shielding/Conductive_Copper_Tape_-_Set_of_3.html (http://www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_Electronics/Shielding/Conductive_Copper_Tape_-_Set_of_3.html)
The largest for the flat bottom areas, medium for walls, and small for tighter fits.
Hey GB, thanks for the link, looks good, I was getting my old Anson (now heavily modified >:D ) Jap strat going the other day, had really bad hum, I changed out the output jack which helped allot but it still has a hum (which it never had before (or maybe it did and I just don't remember LoL)). It has a brass scratch plate (a mate made for me way back) but seems the cavity could use some of this tape. It also has one frett (13th) lifting on the treble side which I need to glue down (any thoughts ?), I could go for a complete refrett but as I routed out the truss rod years ago (it never worked anyway) and made the neck super thin (and is what the Frank Gambale Ibenez was inspired by, Frank played it and liked it not long before they made the Ibenez for him), I had to shape the fingerboard and fretts to come up just right for a set of 10-46, so refrett not straight forward...
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on June 26, 2015, 10:24:26 AM
I use the copper foil on every guitar I build; it is far superior to any other option. Do make sure you solder all the seams together to guarantee good continuity. Make sure the bridge is properly connected as well. The very best practice is to terminate all grounds at only one point. Finally, test the installation by measuring the resistance from the amplifier end of the guitar/bass cable to the bridge/strings - it will be a good indication of a job well done.
I don't actually do that with the solder. The reason I don't is because when I test conductivity with a multi meter from many points and positions I get full conductivity. If I was using the tape without the conductive adhesive I would solder here and there. Just out of curiosity, how do you get your solder trails to stick? Any time I have soldered anything to copper tape it feels very weak and would just scrape off.
As far as terminating grounds, what I think you mean by this is remove all the wires that attach to the back of pots etc. I will do this. The trem had a wire going from it to one of the backs of the pots so I will remove that and attach it to an earthing screw that was already installed on this bass. In the main cavity the earthing screw had a wire run from one of rears of the pots to it so mechanically attaching the pots to the carbon paint in the control cavity.
What I will do is run the trem earth wire to this screw instead which is now screwed in and resting on the copper tape. The copper tape then connects all the way around creating connectivity. When the scratch plate is reinstalled and had the back completely covered by foil (I have a single sheet for this) it will make contact with the cavity foil because I have an area where the cavity foil comes up over the top of the body so it will touch the foil on it. For good measure I have an area where the foil from the cavity comes up onto the face of the bass and runs over a screw hole for the scratch plate. This will guarantee that the scratch plate gets screwed down tight and makes a connection with the foil below.
Basically everything then will be terminating at one single point because pots are screwed to the scratchplate which has the shield on it, the selector switch also, then then will all connect to the control and pick cavity shields which are all connected as one also. Both combined creates one single point.
I used to to the guitar nuts way and solder all to a single ring, star grounding I believe it is called, then I realised it was over kill!!!!!!!
If I plug in a cable and touch the earth and then touch the trem I will get connectivity with multimeter and the same goes for any other point I choose to put the multimeter.
Given the copper tape is such a big heat sink, it will be hard to get enough heat on it for the solder to "wet" properly and not damage the tape ?
Quote from: rnolan on June 27, 2015, 11:23:54 PM
Given the copper tape is such a big heat sink, it will be hard to get enough heat on it for the solder to "wet" properly and not damage the tape ?
well that's why I think that it is overkill doing that RN. I have successfully done it before (solder to copper tape)but really a little few dabs of solder over conductive adhesive is just not gonna work out for me. As I mentioned earlier, the stuff I use connects no matter how many little tiny bits of tape have to over lap or what ever and I test all areas with millimetre.
Because I'm actually making a shield for the bridge bass pickup I have to rap the pickup in copper tape. However so as I do not create a coil I have to break the tape somewhere so it's say 95% surrounded in copper. Then the tricky bit..................solder a wire from that copper shield tape around the pickup to the main earth either at the pickup or the screw that attaches the trem earth to the shield.
The secret to soldering the copper tape is to use a larger soldering iron (40W or higher) and to make sure the copper is clean. I wipe it off with Naphtha (lighter fluid) to remove all oils first.
And I suspect with a (wider) wedge shaped tip to maximise the contact area (pointy tips would be very frustrating for this job) and probably at least 380 c (but be quick LoL), probably speaking to the converted but a bit of solder on the tip will help heat transfer.. but hey RG you don't need to solder with the conductive adhesive though I get where GBs coming from, it makes it more solid for the future in case the adheasive starts to let go (which they tend to over time).
Quote from: rnolan on June 29, 2015, 04:35:51 AM
And I suspect with a (wider) wedge shaped tip to maximise the contact area (pointy tips would be very frustrating for this job) and probably at least 380 c (but be quick LoL), probably speaking to the converted but a bit of solder on the tip will help heat transfer.. but hey RG you don't need to solder with the conductive adhesive though I get where GBs coming from, it makes it more solid for the future in case the adheasive starts to let go (which they tend to over time).
In my experience, the adhesive doesn't wear off. When you apply the tape you need to press it very, very firmly, smooth the foil out almost. I have yet to see a piece of copper tape come off. Indeed when you use the tape and make a mistake it's a f**king nightmare to pull off never mind wait for a few years. There is more chance of the solder coming off in my experience as it heats up and cools down constantly, it picks right off unless you start getting the solderflux out to help it bond.
My iron is 50watts and has a potentiometer to control the power so I can get the heat no probs. For the actual pickup sheild where I will have
no choice but to solder a wire to copper tape I will have to use a bit of flux I imagine. No need to do it anywhere else though since connectivity is fine with the sheilding.
Well upside is the PU shield isn't as big a mass other other bits, I'd flux and tin the spot before you wrap the PU (if you can).
Quote from: rnolan on June 29, 2015, 06:00:08 AM
Well upside is the PU shield isn't as big a mass other other bits, I'd flux and tin the spot before you wrap the PU (if you can).
still gonna be tricky and delicate because rightly so I will need to be quick so as not to ruin the tape. I will post photos of everything.
Bassist played a peavey bass on saturday night instead while I work on this bass. Sounded 100 times better than this rickenbacker copy. Its a good copy (popular in Australia I heard - Rockinbetter basses ) and well built but I think it sounds like poo once the strings are used even the slightest and I can't get a decent tone out of it unless the strings are brand new everytime. The peavey on the other hand, much better. Too muddy the rickenbacker copy and also the f**king noise of the single coil is mental if you're near anything electrical, so sheilding thoughout will hopefully cut a lot of that garbage out.
so the sheet of copper I got that normally fits strat scratchplates is a little small for the rickenbacker copy scratchplate
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-06-29%2022.35.28.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-06-29%2022.35.28.jpg.html)
No matter, I was able to use a piece of the excess to cover the remainder. Again this is fine and connected electrically because the adhesive on this is also conductive.
I haven't tried the copies, but I never liked playing Rickenbecker basses, I did a whole night and into the early ours studio session on one once (at the Music Farm in Mullumbimbi), talk about heavy.. and hard to play IMO. And I don't see Rodger Glover playing them anymore. You could put in some decent (active?) PUs but there are much better basses IMO, the Peavy should be fine, and the Indonesian Music Man Sub bases are "very good!" and a good price point. The PUs aren't "quite" as good as the expensive MMs but they still do very well. I set up a 5 string (which look better than the 4 string) for our bass player, came up sooo well, I ended up playing it for 4 hours, couldn't put it down. If the bass strings go off so fast, and it's got all the hum problem, maybe time to let it go ?
it's not my bass to let go and it's only about a year old.
It doesn't hum but it gets a lot of EMF bussy shite noise.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-06-30%2023.06.16.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-06-30%2023.06.16.jpg.html)
showing connectivity from the sheild to the back of a pot.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/39349f50-d31f-445c-b131-a2d825c75def.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/39349f50-d31f-445c-b131-a2d825c75def.jpg.html)
Showing connectivity to different areas on the sheilding, because I had to patch the parts up that did not get covered by the single sheet of copper foil I had since it didn't quite fit.
I'll make the pickup sheild tonight.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-06-30%2023.11.13.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-06-30%2023.11.13.jpg.html)
Hey RG, they don't look like your fingers (and fingernails) in the second pic, Nice hands BTW.
If it turns out that the shielding of the bridge single coil doesn´t get rid of the hum in a tolerable way, a cheap but still very good sounding alternative to *pimp-a-cheapo* bass are Wilkinson (http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Wilkinson%204%20String%20J%20Bass%20Pickup%20Soap%20Bar%20style%20Humbucking%20MWJH4%20W%20screws%20spring&_itemId=161070163503) or GFS (http://www.guitarfetish.com/GFS-Bass-Guitar-Pickups_c_97.html) pups....
If the bridge pup cavity is large enough, best bet would be to drop in one of the eather Wilkinson or GFS Music Man replica pups....Killer sound!
Quote from: Systematic Chaos on July 01, 2015, 05:43:28 AM
If it turns out that the shielding of the bridge single coil doesn´t get rid of the hum in a tolerable way, a cheap but still very good sounding alternative to *pimp-a-cheapo* bass are Wilkinson (http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Wilkinson%204%20String%20J%20Bass%20Pickup%20Soap%20Bar%20style%20Humbucking%20MWJH4%20W%20screws%20spring&_itemId=161070163503) or GFS (http://www.guitarfetish.com/GFS-Bass-Guitar-Pickups_c_97.html) pups....
If the bridge pup cavity is large enough, best bet would be to drop in one of the eather Wilkinson or GFS Music Man replica pups....Killer sound!
+1 :thumb-up:
Yes I thought about the pickups needing replaced. I'd still need shielding though. Good pickups need shielding too. I have used GFS before. Decent enough. I wouldn't say the bass was a cheapo, allegedly some think these are made by Tokai, but it's a rumour. It's mid priced. It really is well made and quality finish and construction to. But it doesn't have amazing hardware or electronics. I think it was made worse when the bassist removed the stupid hand rest metal thing that rickenbackers also have covering the bridge pickup.
I will be honest, the pickup shield is an extreme measure. But it is necessary because that single coil has no cover and it isn't going to be seated among the main shielding in the control cavity. It is argued that high end can be lost from doing what I will do to it but I personally don't think on a bass it will matter so much. It is important that the copper shield that is going to go around the pickup does not make a full turn other wise this will create a coil and cancel out the sound. I dunno why this is I just know and have been advised that creating a coil will f*ck it up. When I rap it I will remove a strip of it to break the actual loop. Then I will solder a wire from the shield and attach it to the main cavity shielding which is going to act as the centralised earth drain.
No they aint my hands they are my girl friends. I said "hold that multimeter you!!!!" hahaha
Roge-o!
Replacing the electronics (switches, pots, wiring,....PUPS) in low to mid priced instruments is almost always an instant bump-up in tone and sound....
Ok and now I finished it detailed pics below
pickup out and short wire prepared for attaching to the shield copper
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-07-01%2018.42.47.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-07-01%2018.42.47.jpg.html)
to attach was easier than in my previous experiences, I dabbed some flux on copper tape shield, tinned the iron, put the wire in place after I tinned the bare end also, then quick fast and clean did the join!! Worked out perfect.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-07-01%2018.47.23.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-07-01%2018.47.23.jpg.html)
I had the othger free end bare wire also, I kept it extra long until I was ready to snip it. I tinned the whole bare end to keep the wire twisted together and also stiff so I could postion it. This is it in position below.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-07-01%2018.55.04.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-07-01%2018.55.04.jpg.html)
I haven't made the join here yet
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-07-01%2018.55.15.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-07-01%2018.55.15.jpg.html)
the pickup cavity despite not really containing the bridge pickup got shielded also
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-07-01%2019.20.07.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-07-01%2019.20.07.jpg.html)
ready to solder this end now
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/2015-07-01%2019.24.08.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/2015-07-01%2019.24.08.jpg.html)
finally here it is joined, nice and neet, not like me usually hahaha
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/67d7c015-175b-4d5c-8fa0-8bad2e411f90.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/67d7c015-175b-4d5c-8fa0-8bad2e411f90.jpg.html)
look I removed all those earth wires from the back of the pots :o oh my surely now!! But it will make awful noises now wont it? :???: Oh no look the earth wire has been removed from the selector switch too!! Surely it's certain death now!!!!
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/febb331b-3520-47a0-9d50-92f1c5fe514f.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/febb331b-3520-47a0-9d50-92f1c5fe514f.jpg.html)
wrong!! Look it still connects to the shield...............because it's screwed on tight!! No need for extra wires anywhere!!
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/256fa40a-3d60-4a52-aef7-2ff45d3972bb.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/256fa40a-3d60-4a52-aef7-2ff45d3972bb.jpg.html)
and hey presto all back together!!
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/250fb9f6-7ce4-4f5a-908b-a3d9f282f2ff.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/250fb9f6-7ce4-4f5a-908b-a3d9f282f2ff.jpg.html)
and then I f*cked up!!! How!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I soldered the earth and signal wires for the output jack the wrong way around!!! I thought I screwed the bass!! :facepalm: But then I realised having done the same thing before during shielding operations!!! I switched the wires!!! All f**king GOOD IN THE HOOD GUYS!! :whoohoo!:
Now to see if it's quite on Saturday when we practice in the old mill with awful electrics and interference galore with flourescent tube lighting and EMF CENTRAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???
I'm confident I have helped the situation!!! :amaze:
Thumbs-up and kudos! That´s a solid clean piece of work! :bow:
why thank you :)
I do enjoy modding. I wish I had more time though!!
Hey RG, don't we all (are more time....), nice work my friend :thumb-up: Hope (and suspect will) sound good >:D Nice job BTW :thumb-up:
Quote from: rabidgerry on July 01, 2015, 07:10:33 AM
No they aint my hands they are my girl friends. I said "hold that multimeter you!!!!" hahaha
LOL I was thinking, nice nail polish, gerry.
Thanks for the thread. I love it when people document a project from beginning to end. I'm too lazy and usually just do a middle & end pic.
Yip dead sexy dem nails eh!! hahahha Na she has actually cut them all off now so no more of this (Judas Priest fans????)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/judas-priest-turbo-lover-cbs-special-products2.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/judas-priest-turbo-lover-cbs-special-products2.jpg.html)
NooooooooNo No No BACK TO THE POINT Gerry
Right guys, I never got back about this, the shielding did not do what I hoped.
No recording the bass hooked up to my gear, DI enviroment, the noise floor was below -40db (roughly). However back in the rehearsal room the same shit happened!! Awful awful buzzy crappy noise. Just like there was an earth fault. Moving about made it either better or worse.
So my deduction from the whole thing is that it's either the room or the pickup.
NO i have questions.
On this Rickenbacker bass, there is a horse shoe pickup. Is this a single coil pickup? I do not know. This pickup on the bass is Quiet when hooked up to the bassist rig.
Testing a different bass through the bassist rig also proved quiet. This bass was
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k114/themetalmartyr/Peavey_Zodiac_BXP_Black.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/themetalmartyr/media/Peavey_Zodiac_BXP_Black.jpg.html)
Now the comparison. This Peavey zodiac has a single coil in there and one of those staggered precision bass pickups. So I figured its fair to compare the jazz bass style single coil pickup with the single coil of the rickenbacker correct? If this isn't fair speak up now.
Well this single coil pickup on the peavey zodiac doesn't appear to make the same noise as the rickenbacker copy bridge pup. So could it be the rick copy has a turd pickup? Or Faulty pickup? What could be the matter?
The horse shoe pickup sounds very good in my opinion so worth keeping.
Any thoughts people? Have I assessed this correctly do you think?
When I get some feedback from you guys I shall tell you my plan :)
Hey RG, it's a fair comparison in some ways in that they are both single coil PUs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickenbacker#Pickups) but like all PUs, there are many variables in their construction. It does seem there are issues with the PU and changing it with a decent replacement would be a good idea (from what I read they were always noisy). I don't know if there are any active PU options for it, but for a bass, that would be my choice. I don't like active PUs on guitars, but they work well on bass guitars.
(http://jbepickups.com/r-4000-2/) This site speaks about the noise and seems a good offering,
Or the SD ?
(http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/bass-pickups/rickenbacker/)
So yeah I checked it out, those Horse shoe pups are humbucking so that would explain why that one is silent.
As for the single coil. I still don't understand how the shielding did not help it in the slightest. Also the noise does not appear to go away when you touch the string. It will only go away if you find a randomly find a spot where the noise is not present. I have not given up :)
I have a replacement pickup I can use in the meant time so I will use that one, it's for a j bass. I can mount it on the fibre board that the original rick copy pickup was mounted on.
Sounds like it's acting like an antenna for RF. I think there's something not quite right in that PU.
Quote from: rnolan on July 21, 2015, 05:10:18 AM
Sounds like it's acting like an antenna for RF. I think there's something not quite right in that PU.
True, but that is the way all single coils behave unless something is done to them to stop picking up any noise. Which is what I'm trying to achieve with this one.
This is also a lot to do with location as well. I practice in an old mill and we have no f**king idea exactly what is going on below us or above and anything susceptible to RF is gonna get noise. I do know when light are on on the floor below, if we run down and turn them off, the noise will go away, well most of it. Fluorescent tubes. However this again is why I want the shielding to aid this so it wont matter too much if near lights etc Basically I don't want to have to worry about the situation the bass will be played in.
So go with a humbucker or better active PU
Quote from: rnolan on July 21, 2015, 07:50:43 AM
So go with a humbucker or better active PU
active pickups are actually the work of the devil ???
and I'd rather fix it than avoid it. How does every other bass player with single coils cope? Geddy Lee or anyone else using Jazz bass or Rickenbackers with single coils. Must be an answer somewhere. We'll see what I can accomplish with the new modifications.
Single coils are always more susceptible to noise but some designs work better than others, or no one would ever play a strat/tele/pbass/jazzbass etc.
Maybe this one http://jbepickups.com/r-4000-2/ (http://jbepickups.com/r-4000-2/) will solve the problem. :thumb-up:
But note the PU cover is not included in the JBE
Quote from: rnolan on July 23, 2015, 12:20:26 AM
But note the PU cover is not included in the JBE
lol that's cheating, it's a humbucker :)
I have j bass pickup that I can mount on a bass and install already so I'm gonna try that. I f**king hate this bass anyways. Mind you it sounds nice through my set up but sounds shite through the bassist amp. Well it's ok until his strings die. Trying to get him to use long life strings but he's broke and can afford nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
going to install a new pickup on the bass this weekend. Will see how it sounds. Will also shield it after I check what it sounds like pre shielding.
I suspect it will work better (noise wise) than the current PU (hope so :wave: ). As I posted before I spent a whole night playing a Ric bass at the music farm studio (mulumbimbi/Oz) many years ago, I'm not a fan (but also not a bass player). I've set up and played many other basses, even many of the cheaper ones were better IMO... As you say he's poor (don't I remember that... :facepalm: ), the Music Man SUBs coming out of Indonesia are very good (check bass posts here for my comments) and are not that expensive (~$600 AUD) and they are seriouisly very very good !! The 5 string looks heaps better BTW LoL. The PUs aren't quite as good as the more expensive Music Mans, but they are close and not shabby (shit on the Ric PUs IMO), and you can set them up so sweet.... (sign of a good instrument).
But hey hope the PU change works out. I'd trash it as a spare and buy something better (but guitars aren't quite like that, and you need the $s to do it), Ric basses are not easy to play BTW, but hey, like telecasters, the fight is part of the journey....