ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear

ADA Preamps => MP-1 Classic => Topic started by: Dante on August 28, 2018, 11:00:43 PM

Title: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on August 28, 2018, 11:00:43 PM
My Brown sound on my Classic is not what it was on my previous Classic (RIP). I have experienced identical preamps sounding different before, maybe this is another example.

Is there a way to get my Brown sound a tad more gainy without effecting the Distortion or Clean tones? I have my Brown channel on 9.0/9.0/8.0 and it's still lacking the sizzle and punch and plexi-esque qualities that I had with my ol' Classic before. It is also a bit noisy when everything is at eleven...so I'd rather not run them that hot if I don't have to.

Questions; Would tubes make this difference? They look new but...
Is there any way I can adjust that voicing inside the unit?
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on August 29, 2018, 06:04:03 AM
I would start with the tubes.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: rnolan on August 29, 2018, 06:22:14 AM
Hey Dante, tubes will make a difference, eg the difference between Mullard long plate reissues and Boogie SPAx 7's (mostly JJs) in a MP2 is (to me) huge, (I'm sure it's more subtle but I "really" notice).  While 12AX7s are electrically equivalent/compatible, they all sounds very different, and some suit some circuits better than others.  So short story long (sorry  :facepalm: ), the right tubes will help (grab the tubes from your dead unit and try them ?)

Adjusting the voicing(s) is theoretically possible as the voices are controlled by various circuits/components, but you'd have to modify the circuit (well minimum the components). As far as I know  :dunno: there's no trim pots to change the voicing parameters (well, not entirely, there's the od1/2 trim pots, they control aspects of the gain parameters).So what makes an ADA Voice ?  What are the parameters/variables ?  Helicopter view/understanding is:There are 2 twin triodes (tubes), each triode is a gain stage (so you have 4 gain stages), each triode is individually fed (input) from the circuit which feeds the output of each stage to the input of the next triode, so from one triode to the next, you can change aspects of the signal (eg gain, eq), the gain is about how hard you push the next triode, the eq helps shape the voice (eg emphasis mids).  This is achieved electronically by circuit design and choice of components.  The 10 tube voices in the MP2 are ADA's pinnacle of this idea.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on August 29, 2018, 06:32:39 AM
The tubes in there now are Mesa, probably rebranded Chinese (not that it's a bad thing). I'll try the tubes from my older unit when I get it back from Kim. I have other tubes in my TV Repairman box that I can try.

I was wondering about the trimpots, but as Richard says, those affect EVERYTHING. Which is what I was afraid of.

Thanks fellas
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Soloist on August 29, 2018, 01:44:39 PM
Hey Dante, I had a similar issue with my MP2. I put some mesa tubes in it and it sounded meh on the higher gain patches. Swapped those out for some Tong Sols and WOW!! what a difference! :headbanger:
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Systematic Chaos on August 29, 2018, 02:40:16 PM
Newer Mesa Tubes are JJ ECC83, older ones (R1 and R2) are Russian EHX. Throw in a pair of TAD RT001 12AXA-C and you’re golden-brown
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: bunkyloo on August 29, 2018, 06:15:09 PM
TV repair box super funnyDante
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on August 29, 2018, 06:45:38 PM
I should mention that the Distortion voicing is fine. In fact, with it at 5.0/5.0/5.0, it's a little dirtier than I usually run my Distortion. Which means, it's got GOBs of gain.

I'll try rolling tubes, I've only written one bank of patches so far anyway. Now's the time.

Magnus; I have a TAD 12AX7 (something) that I'll try, thanks!

Soloist; I used a TAD and a Tung Sol in my MP-2 (Still do!) and I may have to try one. The MP-2 is a strange animal tho, it took a LOT of tries just to get it to sound different at all. With most tubes, it sounds the same - really good.

In case you thought I was joking about the TV repair case; here are some pix. It was a TV repairman case, with a latching door that says "Tube Caddy" on it!! Got it for $3 at a garage sale. that's not a typo....Three Dollars
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on August 29, 2018, 10:32:15 PM
I played around a bit with some toobs tonight. I don't know which is v1 and v2 in the Classic, so I'm going to reference them this way; front and back. If you're looking at the front of the unit, there's a preamp toob in front, and another in back. There, that's what I'll do.

I'm not sure why I did this, but I left the "back" toob the same the entire time, and rotated the "front" toob. Here's what I tried, and how it worked out;

Front: Chinese Nationals
Back: Sovtek 12AX7WXT
Outcome: Gains are great, ZERO bottom end

Front: JAN Phillips 12AX7
Back: Sovtek 12AX7WXT
Outcome: Better. Great gains, medium bottom end

Front: Groove Tubes 12AX7-R2
Back: Sovtek 12AX7WXT
Outcome: Great gains, medium bottom end. Meh

In hindsight, the Sovtek may have been the culprit sucking out the bottom end. Next, I'll try the JAN and the Groove Tube together, swapping their positions to see whassup. Tomorrow

* I also have a Mullard LP and a JJ HiFi waiting for me in the shopping cart of TubeDepot....getting paid tomorrow....
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Systematic Chaos on August 30, 2018, 03:09:49 AM
The Groove Tubes 12AX7-R2 is a Sovtek 12AX7LPS.....good in a PI slot but more than *meh* in preamp stages
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on August 30, 2018, 06:08:50 PM
The Groove Tubes 12AX7-R2 is a Sovtek 12AX7LPS.....good in a PI slot but more than *meh* in preamp stages

Funny thing, I have two of those because...they came in my MicroTube 200 years ago. I never liked them in that amp


I ordered a Mullard and a JJ (both long plate versions) from Tube Depot today, should have them in a few days.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: rnolan on August 31, 2018, 02:35:28 AM
Hey Dante, that should be a nice combination, try them both in each position, the order will make a difference
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on September 01, 2018, 03:30:18 PM
Y'know, I didn't think of that...you're right.

I put the JAN and the GT in this morning, that'll work for now. I tried the JAN up front with the GT in back, and hated it. Ended up going with the GT up front and the JAN in the back (for now). Sounds pretty good, and oddly, a bit bright. My 4x12 cab has always sounded dark, but not with these tubes. I can't wait to see if I get a bigger bottom end with either of the long plate tubes I ordered.

For now, I can totally get the bottom I need without maxing out the Bass, which is nice. I have it at +6 on my ModRock and +8 on the Metal. Mids are scooped -8 on the Metal (I think) and -4 with the ModRock. I believe the Treble is at Zero on both and the Presence is on +2.

In short, I have a lot of wiggle room with each parameter  :thumb-up:

BTW: the MP-2 does NOT change this drastically with different tubes.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: rnolan on September 01, 2018, 08:44:11 PM
Cool, it's good that combo is working out. My guess is having the JJ up front followed by the Mullard will be they way to go but  :dunno: .
With the MP2 was subtle, more about the 3D the long plates bring, it responded differently to my fretting.  I also found the Boogie STRs (JJ I suspect) broke up on the bottom E in a not so good way.  Though I put in pairs of the same tube, I should try mixing them up in another unit.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on September 04, 2018, 07:21:25 PM
TOOB ROLL DAY!!

I received a package in the mail today, from Dougs Tubes. It contained a lot of packing material and two tiny 12ax7 tubes; one a Mullard long plate and one JJ Long plate, gold pin. I also tried the following;

Sovtek 12AX7-WXT
JAN Phillips 12AX7
Mesa STR-12AX7-A
Chinese Nationals
Groove Tubes 12ax7r2

Here's what I got, again, using the Front/Back analogy with regards to position;

FRONT: JAN Phillips
BACK: Groove Tube (GT)
Result; Gains are really good, but need a bit of bottom end. More than enough distortion, articulate cleans.

FRONT: JJ Gold Pin
BACK: Mullard LP
Result; Wooly, Dark, cleans up really NICE with picking attack or volume knob. More bottom end and more gain than the JAN/GT combo.

FRONT: JAN
Back: JJ Gold Pin
Result; Great picking attack, a bit bright overall.

FRONT: Mullard
Back: JJ Gold Pin
Result; YUK. Low gain, lifeless, low volume, no tone...weird. This happened whenever the Mullard was in front, regardless of the rear tube.

FRONT: GrooveTube
Back: Mullard
Result; Sounds really nice. Medium gain, very dynamic, Metal sound's bottom is a bit flabby tho. Gains are smooth and buttery, but that loose bottom.

FRONT: GrooveTube
Back: JJ Gold Pin
Result; Metal bottom is TIGHT. Plexi-ish brown tone that is really responsive to picking attack. Gains are a wall of sound, yet articulate. Very nice.


Disclaimer:
These are my results and are dependent on a great many factors, including (but not limited to) guitar construction, pickups, strings, speakers, speaker cabinet variances, effects devices, barometric pressure, UV rays, and my shitty hearing. This is what sounded good TO ME. Your mileage may vary, tone is subjective.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: rnolan on September 05, 2018, 03:11:12 AM
Hey Dante, great review  :thumb-up: (love the disclaimer LoL)
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Systematic Chaos on September 08, 2018, 08:25:06 PM
N!ce tube rolling, glad its working out for you now.

...
FRONT: Mullard
Back: JJ Gold Pin
Result; YUK. Low gain, lifeless, low volume, no tone...weird. This happened whenever the Mullard was in front, regardless of the rear tube.
......

This sounds like the Mullard has one side/Triode gone toast. I´d even bet money on that! Return that tube for a new one!
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: rnolan on September 08, 2018, 09:01:29 PM
Good call SC I agree, the Mullard should sound different but not Yuk.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on September 09, 2018, 08:39:59 PM
Yeah, it was much quieter... it didn't sound good. I'll try returning it (I'm not using it ;)
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on November 01, 2018, 07:18:17 AM
BUMP: My Classic takes a lllloooooonnnngggg time to warm up, like maybe 30 seconds after it finishes the startup sequence. My Brown sound is sounding a bit fuzzy (not fizzy, fuzzy).... like I'm using a fuzz box turned down low to get a hairy overdrive. It sounds good, but I don't remember it sounding that way when I wrote the patches.

It only seems to be the Brown channel, I think the Distortion is working fine. I'm going to play around with it some more tonight.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: rnolan on November 02, 2018, 02:03:46 AM
Hey Dante, has it always taken so long ? or is this new behavior ?
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on November 03, 2018, 09:34:46 AM
It did the slow warmup thing when I was rolling tubes, I thought it was just one tube causing it...but now I fear my Classic is in a slow rate of decline. I'm hoping it's something simple. And, I'm hoping it's related to the tone, which ain't right.

SO....
I broke out the MP-2 and put it in the rack with the G-System. It sounds marvelous. Not sure what I'm gonna do about this Classic for now...maybe try rolling some tubes again....or just tinker with it until I get it sounding right I guess  :dunno: and try to rely on my trusty old OLD O.L.D. MP-2 that I fear is pretty fragile. I'll be careful with it, and it looks pretty cool with the blue screen in the rack. I'm only using the warm high gain and dynamic high gain voicings for now. Damn warm gain takes a few seconds to 'warm up' when switching from a clean patch...grrrr...but I digress

The Classic's Brown channel ain't working, I'm only using the Distortion and it sounds like a fuzz pedal, not an overdrive. Slowly getting worse...I think...or, I'm just noticing it more. Weird.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 03, 2018, 12:46:34 PM
Maybe R151 is on it's way out?
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on November 03, 2018, 02:56:58 PM
I think I remember this...way up in the corner, hard to reach...very little. I got this..what do I put in there? What do I search for?

Thanks in advance

Dante
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 04, 2018, 09:19:59 AM
If I'm not mistaken it's a 180k resistor. Now you can always check it first with an ohm meter, you can do this in circuit in this case.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on November 05, 2018, 10:56:38 AM
I have a multimeter now, what should that circuit read?
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on November 05, 2018, 01:24:47 PM
180k ohm ;D just measure over the resistor
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on June 10, 2019, 01:32:49 PM
I realize I'm bumping a VERY old thread....but I busted out the Classic the other day. The Effects Loop is not working now, not sure why.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Davide on June 11, 2019, 11:03:53 PM
Hi Dante, so sorry to read this about your Classic  :'( Did you check the OPAMP (U21) I replaced on mine?  :dunno: (
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 14, 2019, 04:28:40 AM
Looking at the schematic, there is one ic that controls the FX loop and the SS, tube, clean and that is U19 (TC9164N). It's located behind the display.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on June 16, 2019, 11:17:49 AM
I'm looking everywhere, I can't find it

Can you see it in this pic?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/b95sxRsOr-Q2SPgeg22WNo2hAaLblkE7TIK7uEQ62bZV0Mw0S5v5qzSXdIp7C0mquy2idVaqj177KCNbzjsUQMFruIeMQFGmuOq5Quri0feUIDwuR9gRfmPus2IBb2cXkB1qh_zGBq5zXqxUbfNWlgm3TFx5xZ2fVqjeZ-ULdr91NWtpWJOaD1s3lsfUh0973UJUkUZqMlI1CfohK2rb4AwxwxLjHQZ8V3jS1ge5cgNjVmEBM2NMrFrXcfuCrB5vIFhtyThErNioNqdQOzOpo_Q7gA_Hovq2-SSBY3nA15dSiMRXRGorbqMHgkdhJoBr5CG3ZBFOB4Oiysn8QmD_qyyDX9c3cR7rx-U_mMHQD9ChNb1y2cu1zieQ2FrXVIcUwvX8uNngKx5hEVfmzFsOBbDQ7usGqTO2ZXzXSbQRnEZ-qG3-WL9IgF7cZuRkqUz6TI9BNxfEs9lRSWehappXltTxsSRRls8kc5jpW9ycV6qmXSQYBwoTW9oYN7evaG6KsYdLNr4Usu-uuAHP6lr3SXNC5DIRlWHlmUDaAP9D7QR0gnlLMT3ZiXtJ0j7bdEyydRo9XuSVaJDOVPeDIIGfFfLTn3z8bBjanmvPVzro_PNnqpfYINZBROwNqLGMa_DRRFR16egRnEnwBY3i8MOLSBQy4Pvqw3-TgvvKDj4wJi28ClA1OmKZKA54DTAQVfSdb8HmlHF2I6TzF207SkyxZPcV=w1156-h867-no)
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 16, 2019, 01:15:22 PM
You need some new glasses  ;D

Seems you also have an early version, nr 74 (sr 60074) mine is nr 10 (sr 60010)
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on June 16, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
How did i miss that?  :facepalm:

Now I know that IC means 'big black thingy with lots of posts...looks like a chip'
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on June 16, 2019, 05:19:43 PM
Just ordered for $6.50 + free shipping
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 17, 2019, 06:22:14 AM
Let's hope it solves your problem.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on June 20, 2019, 02:49:46 PM
I got the part in the mail yesterday, just found it as I was leaving the house this morning....I'll try it tonight
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on June 20, 2019, 04:52:55 PM
Whelp, that was the easiest thing in there to change....but it didn't make any difference.

My problems: No effects loop, No distortion (all patches sound flat/clean) even with DIST voicing. Something's up
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 21, 2019, 02:01:20 PM
Do the controls react? like od1,2 master volume, chorus? BTW I mean can you hear a difference
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on June 22, 2019, 12:30:41 PM
Nope, all patches sound dry, regardless of OD1, OD2, voicing etc.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 23, 2019, 12:47:28 AM
Do you have a multimeter?
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: vansinn on June 23, 2019, 12:43:44 PM
Hehe, he does, said so in #25 ;)
Weird problem, wish I had something to offer..
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on June 23, 2019, 05:11:30 PM
Okay - check this out....

I disconnected the FX device, no LOOP. Just plugged into the Classic and ran that straight into the power amp. PATCHES ALL WORK. They still sound muffled - like the tone is being choked out of them. I turned off the noise gate and it stayed the same...choked out...Brown sound is kinda tan, Brutal Distortion sound is kinda 'Classic Rock' overdrive or fuzz. Weird

So, I reconnect the Boss GX-700 cables via 4cm, and my preamp is dry / clean every patch. I don't get it. Must be an issue with the GX-700, I'll swap it with my spare to see whassup.

Still...the Classic's tone issues persist :/

ps. Yes, I have a multimeter
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: vansinn on June 23, 2019, 10:14:11 PM
Doesn't sound like an issue with the GX, but rather something reacting incorrectly within the Classic.
You should actually be able to do the 4cm cabling without any device, just the cables going out/in, which should reproduce the same behavior.

But hey, you got a Classic with fully classic sounds, howzat for a win-win.. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on June 24, 2019, 03:48:06 PM
Does the SS clean sounds also muffled?
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on July 02, 2019, 06:27:24 PM
I believe the SS sounds normal. The Classic seems to be working without anything plugged into the FX loop. I'm running in FX loop A, and it seems FX loop B has it's own issues :/ It squeals mightily

This unit is a mess, I may be dragging my old one out of storage to try it out....or, better yet, I'll ship them both to Europe to be fixed correctly (hint hint)
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on July 03, 2019, 03:03:52 AM
I'll be more then happy to take a look at them  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on July 03, 2019, 04:12:56 PM
Say no more! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

I'll get them packed up and email you privately.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: MarshallJMP on July 05, 2019, 11:30:17 AM
Hey you keep the ADAdepot alive and I'll keep the ADA's alive  ;D
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on July 05, 2019, 08:25:08 PM
DEAL  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on July 23, 2019, 09:33:12 AM
Well now, I found the reason for my Effects Loop weirdness. BAD CABLE!

In fact, the whole unit appears to be fine, it sounds marvelous!!
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Samuraipanda on July 23, 2019, 12:39:08 PM
Well now, I found the reason for my Effects Loop weirdness. BAD CABLE!

In fact, the whole unit appears to be fine, it sounds marvelous!!

 :whoohoo!:
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: vansinn on July 23, 2019, 12:59:45 PM
You need to get into computing and networking:

When things don't work, check cabling and routing.
When in doubt, check the routing again..

Oh.. in your case it was indeed the cabling - but then again, cabling and routing are somewhat inter-related, so..
;)
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on July 24, 2019, 07:55:54 AM
Yeah, I changed all the cabling between the FX unit and the preamp....this was the cable going from the wah into the input jack of the unit. I took that plug apart last night and found two strands of wire from the tip (hot) touching the sleeve (ground). Just a dab of solder fixed it up.

Now, I may have spoken too soon about the unit being perfect...I was playing last night and noticed a volume jump about an hour into my session. Not sure if it's a jack, but when I wiggled the speaker cord it did a bit of cutting out from the output jack of the power amp. I seem to remember something about trying both my amps to check them (some time ago) and finding out that it was coming from the preamp....more testing to come. I need to practice anyway, I'll keep using it to re-familiarize myself with the issues I had.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: rnolan on July 25, 2019, 02:02:12 AM
Hey Dante, could be one of your MP-1 Classic output jacks or the cab sim switch(es)/buttons, I had one channel play up on my studio MP-2 a while ago, just out of the blue one side stopped working and thus volume drop, fiddled with it a bit (plugged/unplugged etc.) IIRC it turned out to be the cab sim switch. I have it patched into a desk > monitors so I use the cab sim outs.  Anyway, give everything a good clean and known good cables....
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: Dante on July 25, 2019, 11:19:15 AM
Good point, I'll fiddle with that switch next.

FYI: Played for a good 1.5 hours last night with no issues at all, sounds amazing.
Title: Re: Brown sound is kinda light tan
Post by: rnolan on July 26, 2019, 01:35:13 AM
FYI: Played for a good 1.5 hours last night with no issues at all, sounds amazing.
Why am I not surprised (about the sound  :thumb-up: ), good there were no issues.