Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[gb]

Hi guys

Long time. I hope all is well with everyone. I wasnt sure if i should post this question in another forum more based on lexicon stuff but i noticed a few here use them. Saying that i think my question is geared (no pun intended) around an understanding of how midi can work for me.

Im starting to get back into my rack gear again and actually want to use it in a live situation (been a while since ive been active with guitar). Im keeping it simple - Leixcon G2/R1 controller and ada mp1 and power amp.

I wish to use the ADA MP1 and my G2 together utilising the R1 controller for both but im having a hard time understanding concepts and terms within the G2 manual.

I need help lol.. or if there is a course? I know the G2 has been dubbed a difficult unit to program but i dont think thats my issue, its more understanding what it (and MIDI) is capable of doing and i really need someone to lay out for me. Ive googled and googled and here I am.

Is there a way or such a thing (again lack of MIDI knowledge on my part) to say configure an overall patch on the foot controller that once pressed or selected it will change to preset 10 on the ADA and preset 36 on the lexicon ..then if i hit another overall program patch it will select preset 11 on the ada and then patch 152 on the lexicon (as examples) . .without having to manually do a dance with my feet using a dedicated foot controller for each unit.

This is as far as ive got.. im able to select a patch on the R1 controller (say 36) and it will change the lexicon to 36 and ALSO the ADA to 36. So im guessing this is because both units are using the same midi channel of 1. If i change the ADA MP1 midi to talk on channel 2, i then dont know how to tell the G2/R1 to talk to the MP1 on this same channel.. but saying that how do i leave the normal functions on the R1 controller to still maintain some lexicon functions but also be able to controll the mp1 .. or is one or the other.. surely not...i assume you can reassign buttons on the R1 foot controller to perhaps talk to the MP1 on channel 2..

Another scenario Id also like to achieve is say leave my lexicon effects preset on 36 .. still be able to use the R1 controller to manually turn effects on or off within this patch BUT also then be able to change presets on the ADA MP1 only seperately .. eg scenario..im on stage. the whole set uses the same lexicon preset of 36 but maybe 1 or 2 songs id like to enable or disable delay depending where in the song requires it.. but the set list requires different ADA MP1 patches between clean, crunch, lead etc..

I hope that makes sense.. and im sure the unit and combination is capable i just need help on how to achieve that.

I hope some of the guru's can chime in

[Kim]

Welcome!   

Is there a way or such a thing (again lack of MIDI knowledge on my part) to say configure an overall patch on the foot controller that once pressed or selected it will change to preset 10 on the ADA and preset 36 on the lexicon ..then if i hit another overall program patch it will select preset 11 on the ada and then patch 152 on the lexicon (as examples) . .without having to manually do a dance with my feet using a dedicated foot controller for each unit.

This is as far as ive got.. im able to select a patch on the R1 controller (say 36) and it will change the lexicon to 36 and ALSO the ADA to 36. So im guessing this is because both units are using the same midi channel of 1. If i change the ADA MP1 midi to talk on channel 2, i then dont know how to tell the G2/R1 to talk to the MP1 on this same channel.. but saying that how do i leave the normal functions on the R1 controller to still maintain some lexicon functions but also be able to controll the mp1 .. or is one or the other.. surely not...i assume you can reassign buttons on the R1 foot controller to perhaps talk to the MP1 on channel 2..

This part of your description is all about Midi Mapping.  You can program the Midi Mapping to do exactly what you described.  For instance,
You may want to press button 16 on your pedalboard and make the MP-1 change to program #28 and the fx processor to #37 at the same time.  Very useful when working with multiple preamp patches and different fx patches to mix and match however you need.
You'll need to program the MP-1 in the Midi Mapping menu (the Owners Manual explains exactly how to do this.  You can find the manual online here in The VAULT) as to which program it will switch to, and then program the fx processor to go to which program you want it to go to there.

[gb]

Hey mate, thanks for the reply.

Ok, so if understand correctly the lexicon unit or foot controller is where the 'program' is stored. In that program has the configuration of what to do ie. Preset 10 o the ada mp1 and preset 30 of the lexicon as an example.

Thanks for the link to midi mapping. Im not clear what this is doing and why i would do this on the mp1.

After the 3rd time reading the R1 manual i think im understanding there are different modes it can operate.

Also can someone explain in simple terms what a CC is? I see it ranges to 119 or something

I know i can google alot of this and ive sone some reading but i feel i need an interactive discussion to understand it a bit better. I desperately want to really understand it all as i feel there is sooo much potential with it! And i dont want it to beat me!

[gb]

A thought. If someone already has this setup on there G2 os this something i could upload to my unit...then decipher the config to understand what its doing and why?

[Systematic Chaos]

R1 to G2 remote in; G2 Midi Out to MP1 Midi In.
The mapping is done in the G2 (System Submenu)

[gb]

Thanks mate. Yep hooked up like that already.

Ok great thats a start. So midi mapping from the G2.

Can you expand a little on what im mapping exactly.  Am i mapping buttons to do something ?

[Harley Hexxe]

Hi GB,

    No, what you are telling the G2, (if you program the mapping there), that when it receives program change command from the foot controller, let's say for example, #26, The MIDI out will send program change command # 37 to the MP-1, if that's what you want it to do.
   You can alternately program the MP-1 in it's MIDI menu, so that when it sees program change command #26, it will 'map' to program change #37 instead.

   Don't let MID intimidate you, it isn't that complicated, and can make life a lot easier

[rnolan]

Hey GB, I'll explain the basics a bit for you.

Midi channels are like phone numbers, you send midi messages on channel 1 and other devices listening on channel 1 "hear" and respond to those messages and ignore the others. Most often listening (receiving devices should be set to All so they listen to all midi 16 channels (unless you don't want them to).  However the sending device (mostly the foot switch) generally transmits on one channel (which you can set) however see below, some do much more... but fundamentally, you are just making a call (establishing a communication channel between gadgets).

Midi Mapping at the unit:
The midi foot controller sends out midi commands (short digital messages that other midi enabled devices understand and react to).  Generally these are sent on a midi channel (1-16), the unit that receives them needs to be listening to the correct channel (often you set the receive to All on the Fx device so it doesn't matter what channel it was sent on, but sometimes you want it to just react to that channel (this is a little more complicated and probably not where you need to go).
So lets keep it simple, you select prog 10 on your foot controller, it sends that out (on whatever midi channel you tell it to e.g. ch 1) over the midi lead. Lead is plugged into MP-1 midi in, MP-1 is set to receive (listen on either All, or chan1 (both will work), MP-1 hears change to prog 10. By default MP-1 changes to prog 10, but if you'f prefer MP-1 to change to a different program when it "hears" 10, you edit the MP-1 midi mapping table which lets you map any prog change input (in this case 10) to whatever MP-1 program you want (say 55).  This is called the midi change table and most Fx have a version of it (e.g. the G2, the menus may be different but it can do the same (and go to any program within it that you want, say 89). So the change table maps what the unit hears <> to what you want the unit to change to (midi mapping), you are just mapping midi numbers basically).
e.g. I set my MP1/2 to one to one mapping 1=1 10=10 etc and my Quadverb main program (000 which is mild delay and reverb) is mapped (within the QV) to my MP1/2 patches.  So I uses bank 11, so I've mapped the QV to be 110=000, 111=000 ~ 119=000, thus all of those MP1/2 patch changes have the same Fx. If I wanted a different Fx (a bigger delay which is QV 004) on a program say 116, I'd map 116=004.
Now hears a trap for young players..some midi devices go from 1 to 128 (eg MP1) and some go from 0-127 (eg QV  ). So when I press 110 on my MXC is sends out prog change 110, MP1 goes to 110 but QV hears it as 109 so I need to map 109=000. So all the numbers above are 1 wrong for QV (but all fx are different you just need to adjust for their peculiarities)

Midi Mapping at The Pedal:
Some pedals (eg FCB1010) let you do this all at the pedal, so pressing a button can send out 5 different midi change numbers on 5 different midi channels with one press, this gets complicated  but it comes with some PC software that helps you sort it out (personally the above works fine for what I want to do).

MP1/2 Midi out:
MP1/2 also have a midi out as well as midi through, midi through just passes the signal on, if the next device is "listening" on a channel that's being sent it reacts.
The midi out reflects what button you press on the front panel of the MP1/2 and sends that change number to the midi out (so Fx change accordingly with front panel changes).

CC (Continuous Control <> real time midi):
Initially the Musical Instrument Digital Interface MIDI was mostly just program change numbers.  Over time it expanded to include real time change signals (CC=Continuous Control).  Later gadgets (particularly keyboards) use this to enhance their capabilities. So now the midi messages (chatting over the allocated/set midi channel) also include on/off information (eg turn chorus on/off) and level information (eg vol up/down, delay time up/down etc.  So with CC you allocate (assign) a CC device (number), could be a button on you quad switch or a CC expression pedal) to a parameter you want to control (eg chorus on/off, delay on/off, master vol up/down etc).  This depends what your foot controller can do and what the unit can understand (react to).
The MP2 included a fair bit of CC functionality, I can turn most on/off parameters on or off and some up/down parameters (that make sense) eg master vol, wah etc I can control with a midi CC expression pedal.

Midi channels are about establishing communication between gadgets, midi messages are then transmitted over those "links". What messages are sent (eg patch change, on/off, up/down) and how they are interpreted depends on the gadgets and you need to line up all the ducks.


.

[MarshallJMP]

I saw in the R1 manual you can also send 5 different program changes on different midi channels.But the easiest way to do it is to use the midi mapping on the mp-1.

[gb]

Thanks guys. . Thanks rnolan for all that typing

Ok understanding some more which is good.

So are the R1 patches (say patch 36) actually more than just  a preset but actually a program? that i could edit with multiple commands?.. i guess im trying understand where do i create these so called programs on the R1. Currently each number correlates to the same preset on the main g2 unit. So are the numbers im seeing on the r1 preset recalls or program recalls that just happen to correspond to the same preset number.

Lol confusion much. Lol

Or do i need to change the mode? Of the R1 to access programs instead of recalling presets.

Rnolan..do you come to sydney much? I might need you to come round and show me lol

I can see the benefit of simplifying the midi mapping by doing it on the mp1. I might start with that.

Youd think with an IT background this would be easy to comprehend!
Thanks guys

[MarshallJMP]

Well download the manual and look at chapter 6

[gb]

On the to do list for tonight! Thanks.

[Harley Hexxe]

Hey Gents,

     Lets keep things simple for GB, since he isn't using a lot of rack gear here. All he has is the Controller, the G2, and the MP-1 in his rack.
    Richard brings up a good point that I forgot to mention, and that is about how some companies use MIDI commands from 0-127, while others use 1-128. In the case of Lexicon, I believe they use 0-127 so this is correct that the program changes need to offset by one for the ADA gear, since they used 1-128.
    I don't use the R1 myself, because I have a Voodoo Labs Ground Control. The Ground Control lets me send independent MIDI program changes to each individual MIDI device on it's own MIDI channel, up to a total of 8 devices. However, I did find out that this isn't a perfect system through my experimentation with this function. There seems to be a signal 'bleed' between MIDI channels, that causes a conflict in the devices receiving the commands. This seems to happen when I have the system set up using MIDI channels that are next to each other e.g. 1-2-3-4. So to correct this, I either use all the Odd number channels, or the Even number channels on the Ground Control, e.g. 1-3-5-7, or 2-4-6-8.
   At this point, I have to disagree with Richard's recommendation to set the MP-1 to listen on all 16 channels, or as it's referred to in the MP-1 manual, "Omni Mode. This will only make the MP-1 try to respond to every command coming from the foot controller, and you don't want that. You only want the MP-1 to change when it gets it's own command to do so, the same goes for the G2.
   The best thing to do is read the manual on the R1, and see if it can send commands on individual MIDI channels. If it can, then pick one channel for the MP-1, and a different channel for the G2. I don't know if the R1 is capable of offsetting the MIDI program change commands by one,(1), to compensate for the MIDI table difference between Lexicon and ADA, but I don't believe it does. Lexicon made their gear to operate their own brand exclusively. What this means is; when you want the MP-1 to go to program #36, you'll have to select program change command on the pedal to send command #37.
   Basically, the way I imagine you'd want to use this setup is to select a tone in the MP-1 for your guitar, and cut the effects in and out when you need them. The easiest way to do this is to setup the MP-1 with the tone you want for the guitar, and program it with that tone in two configurations, one with the effects loop on, and one with the effects loop off. Most likely, what people do is edit the MP-1 and have a program with identical settings, but the only difference is that the effects loop is on in one program and off in the other, and they just switch between the two programs to put the effect in or take it out. Example: You have a cool lead tone in program 36 in the MP-1 with the effects loop on, but then you want the same tone but without the effect, so you edit the MP-1 and turn the effects loop off and save that in one of the inactive MP-1 locations, like program 45. Then you just switch between the two locations to get the effect or not. This only works if you are using the effects loop in the MP-1. If you are not using the loop and you are using the preamp outputs into the G2, then you have to program the G2 to bypass the effects to cut them out when you don't want them. I'm not sure if the R1 has an effects bypass button, but if it does, then this would be a much more simple option.

  @ Richard, As a MP-2 user, you already know if you are broadcasting MIDI change commands in "omni" mode, with every MIDI change command, the MP-2 displays "MIDI Prgm Error" every time it sees erroneous commands, even though it responds to it's change commands 

    Harley

[rnolan]

Hey Harley, my midi setup is very simple so I've never seen the warning.  I have ADA MXC (1 expression & 1 quad switch so standard pedal pack) > MP2 midi in (and pick up power with 7 pin lead). MP-2 midi through > QV midi in (this is a original QV, no CC capabilities just patch change).  Then I adjust the QV midi mapping to go to (mostly the same) the QV program I want when I select a MP2 patch. Moreover, all my MP2 patches (I use) are on one bank (so I don't have to bank up/down when playing).  The CC commands coming from the MXC are for the MP2 (stereo master vol (which I use all the time), tremolo on/off (occasionally) is about all I use). So for me having the MP2 on Omni mode doesn't matter as all the commands are destined for it and the patch change commands are passed through to the QV.  Yes the CC commands will also be passed through and just get ignored by the QV.
But you make a salient point particularly if you are using a unit specific pedal and the unit to control the world, or a groovy midi controller with which you want to control a bunch of different things (relatively independently of one another).

Hey GB, you could also think of midi channels as VLANs (since you know about IT stuff) because that's what they really are. It's just simple networking and the layer 3 protocol is midi instead of the typical TCP, UDP, RTP SNMP etc packets.  I get up to Sydney from time to time, happy to catch up  , see PM

[Harley Hexxe]

Hey Richard,
   I use the MXC with one of my MP-2's and I don't have issues with that, since they communicate on the same MIDI channel. However, when I'm using the Ground Control, and I have several different brands of rack gear in the MIDI chain, that all changes. It's less complicated and less likely to cause conflicts if each different piece of gear communicates with the controller on it's own channel. I don't even set the Ground Control to "omni" mode, although that probably wouldn't hurt anything.