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Author Topic: Power Conditioners  (Read 71852 times)

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MarshallJMP

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #135 on: Time Format »

Well take a voltmeter and measure between the line and earth connection in one of the wall sockets in your rehearsal room and you should have the same voltage as you would if you measure between line and neutral.

To answer your question "Well the point I'm making is how can I not have a ground connection when lifting an earth wire from a plug reduces noise?"
Because a ground loop in this case has got nothing to do with the wall plug earth connection, it has to do with a small resistance between the multiple grounds in your system. Don't believe a good earth connection will solve all ground loop problems.

The most important thing about an earth connection is SAFETY ,so the better the connection the safer you are.
Here in Belgium the earth connection has to have an impedance of less then 30 ohms or they don't hook you up to the power grid. At my place it's 14 ohms. And you also have to have 2 residual current circuit breakers, one of 300mA for the whole system and 30mA for wet places like the kitchen, bathroom washing machine, dryer etc... .At my place almost everything goes through a 30mA just to make it more safe.

Ground loops can be a nightmare to investigate because it can be a very complex matter, read here to get an understanding about all the problems that can occur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)
http://mickpeterson.org/2014design/Info/EST016_Ground_Loops_handout.pdf


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rabidgerry

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #136 on: Time Format »

To answer your question "Well the point I'm making is how can I not have a ground connection when lifting an earth wire from a plug reduces noise?"
Because a ground loop in this case has got nothing to do with the wall plug earth connection, it has to do with a small resistance between the multiple grounds in your system. Don't believe a good earth connection will solve all ground loop problems.

Ok we're butting heads here, what are you trying to say?

The noise I am having is because my ground in my room might be bad?

Why are we talking about wall plug ground if this has nothing to do with my ground loop problem?  I don't understand why this has entered discussion if it has nothing to do with my ground loop issue.

I was simply trying to find the cause of the noise.  And I found it.  it's a ground loop.

Unless someone else can explain to me why lifting the ground off my plug reduces the noise?
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #137 on: Time Format »

I'll try explain what I'm talking about. You have 3 types of noise.

1:EMI noise on the power lines ,this is why you need a line filter like a power conditioner.

2:EMI noise in the air, this can be picked up by your guitar PU's and cable's

3:EMI noise in ground loops

There are also other types of noise but from what I have seen on the wave file you posted it's originating from the power grid since it's all 50Hz harmonics.
So a good earth connection will help with shielding. Do you know what a Faraday's cage is?
Well a shielded cable is also a sort of faraday's cage so the better the earth connection the better shielding you will have. The same for the metal cases like your preamp.
And yes it will also be shielded without an earth connection but not as good.

So I think you have problems with 2 and 3 because if you remove the ground loop by disconnecting the ground wire there is still the same noise only lower in volume.

But like I said this is a very complex matter to solve and I'm not a specialist in EMI stuff.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #138 on: Time Format »

Sorry if I'm appearing frustrated.

Yes I know what a faraday cage is, I create one when I shield my guitars so I know and have read about it.  Basically it acts as a shield and carries emf to ground as opposed to letting it go straight into the guitars components.

For the record when I did those tests I did them with gain set to my normal settings.  If everything is clean I have no noise.

I was always told noise under high gain is normal so expect it.  You think I have issue with no.2 and no.3?

I think you overlooked something also in your assessment.  The clip I posted where I use only the GT5, is quiet (some hiss but that is normal).  Guess what?  Still using long cables.  However the thing that is different is there is no preamp in the loop.  So any extra noise is coming with the addition of the preamp.

The other noise we hear after I disconnect the earth on the preamp sounds similar to the original noise (in the noise 2 clip) only much much quieter, I'd say 80% may be more.

Who knows what the extra noise is, but I know I can get rid of A LOT of the hum so I'm quite pleased with that.  One other thing I need to do is replace one cable I use with a proper good quality shielded cable, I'll make one before I go play in Scotland and England next week.  Was thinking of bringing the MP1, I still need to replace the electrolytic caps though.

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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #139 on: Time Format »

With no preamp in the loop you disconnect 2 cables and the preamp, so less noise induction. Don't forget a preamp will amplify  the noise in the cables and the noise that was already present.

It's not easy to get it hum free but you can with some experimenting lower it down to a manageable level.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #140 on: Time Format »

But obviously I cannot do anything about the cables so that's something I have to live with. 

That said I find the noise level after the earth removed totally acceptable, lets hope the hum eliminator can reduce the hum to that same level otherwise I still have a noise issue.  I mean you only heard the noise because there was a phone recording it right up to the speaker.  No ones going to notice that level of noise at a show.  I've heard much louder hissing coming from peoples amps in all honesty.  I could also bump up the noise reduction, but I wont as I keep it as low as possible.

So that being said there is nothing else to do to improve my situation that I am aware off.  But I feel it has improved significantly knowing I have a ground loop and that I need to get rid of that.  The noise is equally as bad with an MP1 in the loop, worse because at that time I was using a external transformer too so another ground wire!
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

rabidgerry

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #141 on: Time Format »

reading this at the moment.  Not sure whether to try it or not.

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/stargnd/stargnd.htm

Isn't this just the same as removing ground from some equipment but leaving one attached so you are always connected to ground so long as all your gear is chained together?

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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #142 on: Time Format »

No star grounding is actually putting your grounds on one single point and there you could connect your earth. It's usually used in amps. And also in the MP-1.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #143 on: Time Format »

Ok so as MJMP already knows, I have fixed my issue using the Art Clean Box II.

I tried it in two places. 

The first place I tried it:

Guitar > GT5 Input > GT5 send > Art Clean Box Input > Art Clean Box Output > Preamp Input > Preamp Output > GT5 Return > GT5 Main Outputs L+R > Power Amp Input

I cannot recommend this unit enough.  I have attached an audio clip.

In the clip I fade the noise in.  This is the noise with my guitar plugged in everything up deathly loud, and no hand on the guitar strings.  Hum city.  I then mute this, you hear me plug in the Art Box, then nothing after that.  The nothing is what happens when the Art Clean Box is plugged in.



No star grounding is actually putting your grounds on one single point and there you could connect your earth. It's usually used in amps. And also in the MP-1.

Why MP1 and no other preamp?  oR where you just saying that for an example?

I do star grounding in my guitars when I shield them but I'd be worried about killing myself if I did it in a preamp.
« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #144 on: Time Format »

As an example yes.
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Soloist

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #145 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, where was the second place you tried it? Or is the signal path you posted the better of the 2? Major difference in cleaning up the hum in your signal. :thumb-up:
When I had the Beringer hd400 I placed it in the fx loop with similar results as you.
Now with no hum time for you to make some noise :metal: :metal:
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Live Rig:
Fractal Audio FM3 ver 1.06
Boss GT 100 ver.2.11
Switching- Radial Engineering Big Shot I/O v2 - Radial Engineering Pro D2 Stereo Direct Box
Power - Live Wire Power Conditioning Distribution System
Monitors  - (2) FRFR-112 Headrush Stage monitors
Axes - Charvel So Cal Pro Mod-Jackson DK2MQ Pro-Jackson USA Soloist-Ibanez RG3XXV
ADA gear: MP1- MP2 - MT200
Studio gear- way too much to list.

rabidgerry

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #146 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, where was the second place you tried it? Or is the signal path you posted the better of the 2? Major difference in cleaning up the hum in your signal. :thumb-up:
When I had the Beringer hd400 I placed it in the fx loop with similar results as you.
Now with no hum time for you to make some noise :metal: :metal:
Jeeez such I dumb ass!  Forgot to post the second place.  The second place did nothing.  Like absolutely nothing!

I put the Box between my GT5 and Power amp.  So on the outputs of the GT5.  I ran both left and right through 1 and 2 inputs on the box.

Yeah man I've basically done what you did, it's in my GT5 FX loop, the box gets the guitar signal before the preamp does, and cleans up the hum.

I wonder what would happen if I put the box between the output of the preamp and the GT5 Return?

I can't rave enough about this product, I'm very happy.  I put up with that shit noise for a good while thinking it was my practice room mains and other things going in the building.  But no twas a big dirty ground loop.

Did you listen to that clip soloist?  Silence is golden!  Now I'm set for gigs in UK this weekend!  Woohoo!

MJMP being the font of all knowledge, can you explain what the transformer does in the Art Clean box?  So it separates the signal and the shield earth, ok but shouldn't that make noise then since it's like no earth going out of the box and into the preamp input since the box has captured it?  Sorry if this is a stupid question.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #147 on: Time Format »

Well it's actually and isolation transformer which gives you a galvanic isolation.
Here's some more info about it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_transformer

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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #148 on: Time Format »

Another ground loop issued SOLVED :thumb-up:

Harley 8)
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I only have two brain cells left, ...and I'm saving them for the weekend!

Soloist

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Re: Power Conditioners
« Reply #149 on: Time Format »

Yes RG I did listen to the clip. Night and day difference!!! Good work :thumb-up:
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Live Rig:
Fractal Audio FM3 ver 1.06
Boss GT 100 ver.2.11
Switching- Radial Engineering Big Shot I/O v2 - Radial Engineering Pro D2 Stereo Direct Box
Power - Live Wire Power Conditioning Distribution System
Monitors  - (2) FRFR-112 Headrush Stage monitors
Axes - Charvel So Cal Pro Mod-Jackson DK2MQ Pro-Jackson USA Soloist-Ibanez RG3XXV
ADA gear: MP1- MP2 - MT200
Studio gear- way too much to list.
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