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Author Topic: Stereo Live Rig setup  (Read 20219 times)

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rabidgerry

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Stereo Live Rig setup
« on: Time Format »

Ok my main question here for all to discuss is, if you run a stereo rig live, how do you arrange your speakers?

I personally have one cab each side of the stage when playing actual shows.  However in my rehearsal room, I have toyed about with several positions and to date I am not happy with any so far and seem to always be trying to fix the sound.

Currently I have my 4 x 2x12" cabs quite close to one another (2 stacked together either side).  My main complain is, I only ever hear one side.  And I think I'm suffering some kind of phase cancelation or something like this.  If I stand smack bang in the middle I get a shit dead zone!  Which is usually weak sounding.  I have to stand at either left or right side to get a decent thick sound.  So this means if I move about the sound is dropping in and out and it's pretty dam annoying.

Any ideas people?

I must ad what effects I use.  I generally use a stereo doubling effect using a stereo chorus on my FX unit.  Then I have other patches that have a more regular stereo Chorus sound.  To explain this a  little better, when I use the other Stereo Chorus as a "doubling" effect it's not meant to sound so much like there is Chorus on, it's just meant to seperate the signals from each other and give a nice stereo sound.  The other more chorus esque settings are meant to actually have the "Chorus" vibe to them.  I also use stereo delay in some solos that pans left and right and also the subtle reverbs that are stereo too.

So yeah what's with this dead middle zone?  It's pissing me off?  I have to stand one side of my rig and this is dumb in my opinion.  I don't remember having this issue back in the early days of running a stereo setup.  Is this an issue with my speakers?  I'm using two different types?



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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

vansinn

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

If you have the problem as described with dead zon in the middle, left an right are indeed phase reversed, which could simply be incorrect wiring.

I've been at very few concerts having correctly defined stereo, and I'll leave it an open question if this is even possible on a majority of venues.
My take is that it may have more value going for a good ambient sound scape.
As such, I would suggest you simply try routing one channel to a center setup, in this case two of your 2x12 boxes, and route the other channel to left and right into one 2x12 at each side.
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Kim

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

My cabs are on both sides of the drum kit.  Im typically over on one side since my band is a trio, but I don't need to hear the actual stereo effect when we play live; it's there for the audience.

But yeah, definitely sounds like phase issue with how something is wired.
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Soloist

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

RG, do you have your effects panned hard right and hard left? Some effects units will give you a dead zone panned that way.  You can try panning 75% right and left leaving 25% up the middle. That might give you a fuller, wider sound. If that doesn't work then I agree with van, check your wiring in your cabs.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

As such, I would suggest you simply try routing one channel to a center setup, in this case two of your 2x12 boxes, and route the other channel to left and right into one 2x12 at each side.

This wouldn't be practical for me really.  I was looking at this today however but not for and not possible with the gear I own currently.

As for true stereo live argument, I definitely think I can hear a nice stereo sound of my rig at MOST venues I play at.  Some are two small or something or the sound man is lying and it's not an actual Stereo setup with the PA (yes still some in mono I find).

My cabs are on both sides of the drum kit.  Im typically over on one side since my band is a trio, but I don't need to hear the actual stereo effect when we play live; it's there for the audience.

But yeah, definitely sounds like phase issue with how something is wired.
That's the same as me when playing live, and my band is a trio also and the stereo is mainly for the audience I guess too, as I just get a mono mix back in my monitors usually.


RG, do you have your effects panned hard right and hard left? Some effects units will give you a dead zone panned that way.  You can try panning 75% right and left leaving 25% up the middle. That might give you a fuller, wider sound. If that doesn't work then I agree with van, check your wiring in your cabs.

Ok this might make sense about your dead zone theory.  I have no control over the panning of my effects.  I just know that when I use the left and right output and use stereo effects and of course goes through my stereo poweramp it comes out in stereo.

I achieve stereo by using the stereo chorus.  I can also through some jiggery pokery add a delay like 10ms or what ever I choose to one side and achieve stereo using the Haas effect (you know like double tracking).

Before I started doing this, I had another delay unit that I fed the right output of my FX unit to.  I stuck on a little delay then basically one side.  I dropped this though since I could manage the same thing using the FX unit either via stereo delay or stereo chorus.

As for the wiring, I wired the speakers myself, however may be they aren't in phase with other two cabs that I did not wire myself and are effectively still stock????  This is possibility but I dunno why they would be wired differently from the eminence speakers I wired myself?

A sound guy said to me one time he thought my rig was out of phase at a gig.  I couldn't understand that though because I use the exact same FX unit with same FX in the studio and when recorded it's in perfect stereo.  So the only different with the live set up is cabs.  And on this particular instance when the sound guy said one side is out of phase with the other I wasn't even using my own cabs, I was using the cabs he supplied for the venue.  So go figure all that crazy stuff out!  :dunno:
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

Check your speaker cables and check if they are correctly connected.Also check the cabs just to make sure.Easiest way is to take a 9V battery and put the the tip of the jack (cable) to the + and the sleve to -,now you should see the woofer go to the front,if it goes to the back it's connection is reversed.

Another possibility is that the haas effect you're using is creating too much phase shift on some freq's.

Another thing is ,sound alters depending on where you stand.If you stand in front of the cabs you will hear more highs,if you stant next to the cab you will hear more bass.

And then there are the reflections which can also create phase shifts which can alter your sound.
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Dante

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

Dammit, MJMP beat me to the reflection theory. I was going to say different rooms behave different ways too. Reflections, dead spots, whatever.

BUT...9v battery on the speaker wires?!?!? SORCERY!  :crazy: I love it!!

FWIW: I set my cabs on top of each other at home and simply twist one to the right and one to the left. Stereo! Live, I only get one cab mic'd, so it's just mono to the house PA. I do have one speaker on each side of the stage for anyone that gets in front of the stage (on the dance floor) behind the projection of the mains (which are usually on the front corners of the stage).

Side story, totally off topic: I tried leaving my cabs at home and running direct with my rack. While it sounded fine in the headphones, the sound man quickly complained about no stage sound. He hooked up a powered monitor on the stage to pump my guitar out...it sounded tinny - like a ss amp. From that point on, I brought the cabs.

rabidgerry

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

Check your speaker cables and check if they are correctly connected.Also check the cabs just to make sure.Easiest way is to take a 9V battery and put the the tip of the jack (cable) to the + and the sleve to -,now you should see the woofer go to the front,if it goes to the back it's connection is reversed.

I was thinking this myself, you forgot to ad that I needed to check that all the speakers were moving the same direction so as to make sure they are all in phase with each other  :thumb-up: 

Ok two of the 2x12" are wired correctly, I know this because they have never been altered since I bought them new.

So this leaves the speakers I wired myself in the other 2 cabs.  I'm pretty sure these are fine but I'll check them.  Funny I never thought to check them using the cable, I've only ever done the battery test using the actual speaker terminals.  Using the cable might be easier.  I'll give it a go.

Another possibility is that the haas effect you're using is creating too much phase shift on some freq's.


Well the effect I am using isn't actually called Haas effect, it's just thats the name of the effect you create when you delay one side, I spoke about this before when El was talking about using delay on one side of a dual mono signal to create stereo or a stereo effect.

https://mixcoach.com/creating-depth-the-haas-effect-2/
and some more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effect

Another thing is ,sound alters depending on where you stand.If you stand in front of the cabs you will hear more highs,if you stant next to the cab you will hear more bass.


Yes of course, just like mic placement, but to me when I move around and have a dead zone right in the middle it seems not natural or too extreme.  Basically my cabs together should sound better than I think they do at the moment.  Things should sound bigger than they are currently

I discussed reducing speaker directivity in another thread on here using special filters.  I never used the filters even though I did make them, but I will get round to trying them.

And then there are the reflections which can also create phase shifts which can alter your sound.

True, but wtf!  Tell them to stop their phaseyness!  How do I stop these f**king things?

Side story, totally off topic: I tried leaving my cabs at home and running direct with my rack. While it sounded fine in the headphones, the sound man quickly complained about no stage sound. He hooked up a powered monitor on the stage to pump my guitar out...it sounded tinny - like a ss amp. From that point on, I brought the cabs.

To me, it sounds like you did not use any form of speaker or cab simulation, therefore shit unbareable harsh hi end sound.  Had you used this it would not have sounded "tinny".  Even a basic cab sim will help with this.  I am pretty sure I could take my studio rig to stage no problem and get great results and no tinny sound, but it's all down to the speaker sim I would be using in place of real cabs.  Spoke about this on another thread also.
« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

No I didn't forget, like I said,+ to the tip - to the sleeve should push the woofer forward. It's the same for every speaker. And to make sure I would check them all just to be sure.You never know they were wired wrong at the factory.

Yes but you use a delay between the left and right correct? If so the delay will always create a frequency depending phase shift.

Reflections are hard to get rid of, why do you think recording studio's spend so much money on room treatment.

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rnolan

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, definitely sounds like phase cancellation.  I've seen some factory wired cabs reversed (hot to -ve) so obviously worth checking.  The perplexing comment you made though is that with the supplied cabs at the gig it sounded OoP.  So unless there were issues with those cab (and issues with you cabs), then what is it ?.  So start with all FX off (double delay etc) and just bring up the sound (I'm assuming here you didn't find an issue with your cab wiring) piece by piece.

If I'm being miced up (and there's room) I run my cabs on the side of the stage angled mostly cross stage, a little toward the front, so everyone in the band can hear it and it stays out of the FOH mix (except for the mics).  Something you might try, you should have at least the width of one cab gap in between the 2 sides (so it doesn't form an infinite baffle between left and right)
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rabidgerry

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

Ok I'll check them all.

Not sure what you mean MJMP?  I don't always use a delay, but when I do it's on one side, usually its the right.  Sometimes I use the stereo chorus set in a certain way to achieve similar thing.

I don't know anything about how much they spend dampening studios walls with acoustic foam.  That's not a number one priority for me when I go to my practice room so it's never entering my thoughts.

In all the rooms I played in before I have never had "reflection" issues.  Perhaps the best sounding room was a garage full of stuff.  I mean this place was tiny and filled with furniture and appliances.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

MarshallJMP

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

I don't think bands will invest a lot in room treatment, it's not a studio. Also this is quite a complicated matter to do yourself. So nobody bothers.

BTW what happends if you put all your cabs on one side,do you still have the "gap"?
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Dante

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

Side story, totally off topic: I tried leaving my cabs at home and running direct with my rack. While it sounded fine in the headphones, the sound man quickly complained about no stage sound. He hooked up a powered monitor on the stage to pump my guitar out...it sounded tinny - like a ss amp. From that point on, I brought the cabs.

To me, it sounds like you did not use any form of speaker or cab simulation, therefore shit unbareable harsh hi end sound.  Had you used this it would not have sounded "tinny".  Even a basic cab sim will help with this.  I am pretty sure I could take my studio rig to stage no problem and get great results and no tinny sound, but it's all down to the speaker sim I would be using in place of real cabs.  Spoke about this on another thread also.

I had the speaker sims in the preamp, but that monitor definitely had that tinny sound, like none were being used. I ended up turning the monitor towards the wall (at the back of the stage), cranking up the volume and reflecting it off the back wall. Never again, I bring the cabs

rabidgerry

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #13 on: Time Format »

I don't think bands will invest a lot in room treatment, it's not a studio. Also this is quite a complicated matter to do yourself. So nobody bothers.

BTW what happends if you put all your cabs on one side,do you still have the "gap"?

All the cabs are on one side.  I haven't had a gap in a while.  I got paranoid about making to big a gap between them.  May be I need to make the gap bigger?  This is why at the beginning of the thread I asked how people lay out their speakers when using a stereo setup.

I bothered in my room to some degree about dampening.  I would like to dampen further.  I made baffles using wooden pallet with foam shoved inside and carpet tiles over the wooden slats.  I would like to dampen more but I cannot get the material to make huge kinda drapes.  The ceiling needs something on it to but it's so f**king high and none of us have ladders to handle it.  This would make our room even better to record in.  I'm convinced cymbals turn out harsher than they should due to the ceiling reflections.

Dante, so you did have a cab sim on sorts involved.  I still don't see how it would be tinny unless there was something wrong with the monitor.  Usually my mix is awful in monitors, I'm just grateful if I can hear myself if I am totally honest, and if it's shit but I can still hear my over the drums and god dam singing I'm a happy camper.  Very rarely do I ever get to enjoy a nice stage mix.  And this for me has been the biggest challenge of being a live musician - never being able to hear yourself.  6/10 times I cannot hear myself well at a gig.  I still have to play well or try to regardless and act as though I am comfortable even though I am not.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

Harley Hexxe

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Re: Stereo Live Rig setup
« Reply #14 on: Time Format »

Hey RG,

    Richard brought up an interesting point which I'm curious about. Have you tried separating your cabs and turning up your amps to stage volume without any effects on to see if your have a dead spot in the center of your mix?
    There are times when I separate my amps to either side of the stage, and I have no ill effects like that. Basically, both amps have the same sound and the only stereo image occurs when I use stereo based effects like Chorus and/or Ping-Pong delay. It sounds great on the stage, but unless the PA is a true stereo system, it won't really project that way to the people in the back of the room.

    Harley 8)
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