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Temp "Time Format" issue Fix in Discussions

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Author Topic: Racks and Planes  (Read 34079 times)

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rnolan

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #30 on: Time Format »

Well from SC's audio clip of triaxis sounds like a good thing to use :thumb-up: .
You could go the direct cab emulated option (less dependencies on various cabs, and poweramp not required), although I still like pumping out the volume.

I recon the perfect rig would be 3RU/4RU MP2, Multi FX (in MP2 stereo parallel loop, power amp (Carvin DCM200 = 1RU), light, perfect LOL and MXC peddel. Oh that's almost my rig LOL.... except I use the Carvin TS100 (weighs just a little less than Date's car LOL).
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rabidgerry

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #31 on: Time Format »

If your gig up in northern Germany is within my AO I can bring my Triaxis/2:90 rig and set it up for you to play with/use

That's very kind of you and much appreciated, but then it would be a waste to have taken my rack all the way over, and I will need that for the Birmingham show with Satan (the band) on the way back   :???:

Do you use your mp1 with the Triaxis?

I have just remembered something as well, I think we are driving over!!!!!   We will be getting on a proper bus, us and two other bands.  I must get more details on the travel arrangements.  If we are driving there will be less worry about getting the rack on a bus.  Still the need for this thread is still relevant as I am flying to Holland for sure, no bus that time.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
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rabidgerry

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #32 on: Time Format »

What way do you run your GX700 with your mp1?

I run the 4-cable method - which I'll explain later, as my rig is still in the back of my Jeep from the gig last night. I came home, put the guitars away, took a shower and went to bed. I'll unpack it and explain how it's routed. No worries


I don't quite run mine 4 cable method.  I run guitar into GT5, then effects send into the MP1 then output from the MP1 into the effects return on GT5 then the outputs into what ever I am using to hear sound with (either multi track or power amp).

explain the 4 cabel method using your mp1 when you get a chance my man  :)  I'd appreciate it  :bow:
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

rnolan

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #33 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, the 4 cable method (confused me to when I first read it here on the depot also) is basically MP1/2 L/R out into stereo FX gadget L/R out into stereo power amp (so uses 4 cables to chain between preamp > FX > amp).  This is fine if the FX has true analogue pass through (some of the early ones have) but IMHO not a great way to patch say a TC GMaj as the first thing it does is AD the signal (so there goes your analogue out the window...). Some care more about this than others and there's quite a few posts about it (mostly an issue with MP1/3TM as MP2 has stereo parallel FX loop, i.e. problem solved (for one FX unit)). I use a desk and make it like a PA setup. SC gets good results chaining things together.
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Systematic Chaos

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #34 on: Time Format »

Pls no serial AD/DA vs parallel discussion.... Question was 4cm :thumb-up: :thumb-up:

The 4-cable-method allows you to use any given external preamp as a "block" or integrated preamp in FX- or Multi-Units that have "open"/free programmable chains....so you can place "your preamp" at whatever spot you want in the signal chain which allows for a very effective (no pun intended  8) ) FX routing, e.g. allowing you to place one of the "virtual" stomp boxes in the GX700 (DS1, Flanger, Wah) in front of the external preamp and other FX (Chrs, Dly, Rev,....) after it.
Units that support this are e.g. GX700, GT6/8/10/100/Pro, Lexicon MPX-G2, Digitech GSP1101, Roland GP-100,....

The basic setup is (using the GX700)...
Guitar > GX700 in > GX700 Send > MP-1 in > MP-1 Send > GX700 Return > GX700 Out > MP-1 Return > MP-1 out > Poweramp

Some more in-depth: http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/get-wired-four-cable-method/

Some sights and sounds:
« Last Edit: Time Format by Systematic Chaos »
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rnolan

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #35 on: Time Format »

Hey SC, thanks for the link, this (as I understand it) is not what Dante does or most of posts that say they use 4CM do (@ Dante, please correct me if I'm wrong), I asked the question ages ago (I'd never heard of it so asked what's 4CM), the answer was what I descibed below, not what is in the article (which makes more sense, basically inserting your guitar preamp into various parts of the multi FX). So your MP1/2 becomes an inserted stomp box/distortion pedal but you can move that around in the signal chain.

I simplified the whole thing right from the start and used a small desk and run it like I run any PA combining FX via the aux/FX sends. Wah is probably the only thing I'd want before tube stage (which is how the MP2 signal chain works), back in MP1 days, I didn't need/want wah so it wasn't an issue, I rarely use it these days, but if you want wah, IMHO it's better before the gain stage (tube or SS).
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Systematic Chaos

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #36 on: Time Format »

Hey SC, thanks for the link, this (as I understand it) is not what Dante does or most of posts that say they use 4CM do (@ Dante, please correct me if I'm wrong), I asked the question ages ago (I'd never heard of it so asked what's 4CM), the answer was what I descibed below, not what is in the article (which makes more sense, basically inserting your guitar preamp into various parts of the multi FX). So your MP1/2 becomes an inserted stomp box/distortion pedal but you can move that around in the signal chain.
...

Exactly...but a tad bit more than "just" a stomp.... The Units I mentioned (GX700, GP100, GT-x, AxeFx, MPX-G2, GSP1101,G-Force, G-System....) all have "open" FX-chains that let you place any FX wherever in the chain you wanna have them....
The AxeFx and the MPX-G2 also allow for series or parallel routing as well as a Stomp-Box mode (basically what you can do with the FCB1010 /Uno SW).
So basically, the 4cm allows me to place FX (-chains) around my core (Pre-)Amp to my gusto. When using Parallel in the MPX-G2 the signal is True-Bypass (hardwired) and I can mix in whatever I want....I actually have some presets using series and parallel as the OD Fx in the MPX-G2 are pure analog circuits.
Philosophy and taste related I also like to place certain FX besides the obvious OD, Wah and Comp in front of the preamp....try a Flanger or a Phaser (especially on Clean sounds) up front....imho better than later in the chain...
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rnolan

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #37 on: Time Format »

Yeah take your point, I've not had an issue having flange just in the multi FX (and it can be stereo there) but always enjoyed my MXR Phase 45 and Memory Man delay up front. I'm all for versatility, there are so many ways to combine things (as long as you keep the gain structure right).
I've never played more simply than I do now. I use a little shortish stereo delay and some reverb and a Warm Vintage 5 MP2 patch. I use the volume pedal (stereo master) in MP2 to pick level, and I roll volume knobs down/up to clean/dirty the tone (never done that before LOL). Kind of back to my roots I spose.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #38 on: Time Format »

Pls no serial AD/DA vs parallel discussion.... Question was 4cm :thumb-up: :thumb-up:

The 4-cable-method allows you to use any given external preamp as a "block" or integrated preamp in FX- or Multi-Units that have "open"/free programmable chains....so you can place "your preamp" at whatever spot you want in the signal chain which allows for a very effective (no pun intended  8) ) FX routing, e.g. allowing you to place one of the "virtual" stomp boxes in the GX700 (DS1, Flanger, Wah) in front of the external preamp and other FX (Chrs, Dly, Rev,....) after it.
Units that support this are e.g. GX700, GT6/8/10/100/Pro, Lexicon MPX-G2, Digitech GSP1101, Roland GP-100,....

The basic setup is (using the GX700)...
Guitar > GX700 in > GX700 Send > MP-1 in > MP-1 Send > GX700 Return > GX700 Out > MP-1 Return > MP-1 out > Poweramp

Some more in-depth: http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/get-wired-four-cable-method/



see I run mine a different way and I get shit loads of noise.  So I was going to try the official 4 cable method.

The way I run it does allow it to be shifted about like a seperate block in the chain.


Guitar > Boss input > Boss send to ADA MP1 input > MP1 output to Boss Return > Boss outputs to what ever I want (Power amp or Multitrack).


The official 4 cable method does not allow for stereo signal because the MP1 effects loop is mono where as my way allows for stereo output.  If I did 4 cable all the stereo effects of the boss would turn into mono.


4 cable is this right?  And yes I need Stereo with everything!!  I will never ever go back to mono.

Guitar > Boss input > Boss send to ADA MP1 input > MP1 Send to Boss Return > Boss Output to MP1 Return
« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

Systematic Chaos

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #39 on: Time Format »

Your way is spot on for stereo operations, no worries....you might wanna track down the noise issue though....
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rabidgerry

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #40 on: Time Format »

Your way is spot on for stereo operations, no worries....you might wanna track down the noise issue though....

SC you have been hanging about Irish people too much.  That is something we'd say  "spot on" ;D


@SC I just find the unit noisey well the 3tm more so than the regular ADA MP1.  I had MJMP helping me this quite a bit.  I ended up having to turn the guitar input on the boss down quite a bit.  Normally I am meant to set the boss guitar input in such away that the clip LED comes on when I play hardest but not to frequently.  So now I have it quite low and the clip light is never ever gonna come on.  This helped with the noise a bit, but I still cannot use the 3tm past like 6 on the OD1+2 settings  (and yes I have adjusted the trim pots accordingly so they light briefly).  Perhaps this is normal.  I'll let you hear it.  I have also discovered my trem springs need muffled on a particular guitar because the are causing the noise reduction effect to not close fast enough as they still ring out after I mute strings and this comes through the pickups ever so slightly.

On my Live setup I've used the MP1 (regular version) exactly the same as I do direct recording only at the end I run into power amps rather than a multitrack.  But I just get crazy feedback.  And yes of course I have noise reduction on.  I just use the boss noise reduction right after the Loop block (which contains the MP1).  This is why I have not started to use the MP1 live yet because I haven't got it working properly yet.

Mu main goal is to use both MP1 ans Boss preamps and also have the flexibility of having the OD module on the boss in front of either of those premaps because the are analogue and give great extra gain stage sounds.  Obviously with 3TM I don't need to do that.  3tm will remain in the studio though until I can crack things with MP1 regular in a live setup.  May be I'm playing to loud lol
« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

Systematic Chaos

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #41 on: Time Format »

Ok, here we go....
The (pre)amps just "amplify" what is fed into them...more gain > more of the noise gets amplified.
Try placing the Noise Gate earlier in the chain, that should help some.
I don´t know in particular about the GT5, but normally there is some kinda steps to set a "unity gain" when using 4cm or the likes.
Easiest way to figure out: Hook up Guitar>MP-1>amp and set it up so you have to most favorable "sound-to-noise ratio" (trimpot adjust etc....). Once that sounds boss, maybe do a db-meter (phone-app) recording or a recording into your multitrack/daw or just save a mental note on that sound.
Now hook everything up 4cm (or your way of that) but put all FX off/stby and now adjust the GT5 levels (input/send/output/....) to match (as close as) that sound you got before (Gtr>Mp-1).
Put the Noise gate first (since you dan´t want any noise to get amplified....) and work your way up step-by-step/fx-by-fx until it sounds good.....
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El Chiguete

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #42 on: Time Format »


see I run mine a different way and I get shit loads of noise.  So I was going to try the official 4 cable method.
The way I run it does allow it to be shifted about like a seperate block in the chain.

Guitar > Boss input > Boss send to ADA MP1 input > MP1 output to Boss Return > Boss outputs to what ever I want (Power amp or Multitrack).

The official 4 cable method does not allow for stereo signal because the MP1 effects loop is mono where as my way allows for stereo output.  If I did 4 cable all the stereo effects of the boss would turn into mono.

4 cable is this right?  And yes I need Stereo with everything!!  I will never ever go back to mono.
Guitar > Boss input > Boss send to ADA MP1 input > MP1 Send to Boss Return > Boss Output to MP1 Return

I run things a little different to be able to have everything in stereo and that is by using the RJM Mini Line Mixer.

As you can see in the attachment I plug in the the input of the MPX-G2 > the FX Send to go in the input of the MP1 >send and return of the loop in the MP1 to ad the Rane MPE 28 EQ >>> then I separate things in two:

a) I use the MP1 outputs to have a stereo output that includes an effect added before the MP1 and I plug that to the dry channels of the RJM Mini Line Mixer
b) AND THEN (this is something I develop thanks to this forum) I use the MP1 headphone out to send a the stereo signal to the Returns of the MPX-G2. All the effects running in this part are 100% WET and go to other channels in the RJM Mini Line Mixer

So to finish it off I go from the outputs of the mixer to stereo poweramps and speaker cab (but for now I only run it in mono because I need the other poweramp).
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rabidgerry

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #43 on: Time Format »

Ok, here we go....
The (pre)amps just "amplify" what is fed into them...more gain > more of the noise gets amplified.
Try placing the Noise Gate earlier in the chain, that should help some.
I don´t know in particular about the GT5, but normally there is some kinda steps to set a "unity gain" when using 4cm or the likes.
Easiest way to figure out: Hook up Guitar>MP-1>amp and set it up so you have to most favorable "sound-to-noise ratio" (trimpot adjust etc....). Once that sounds boss, maybe do a db-meter (phone-app) recording or a recording into your multitrack/daw or just save a mental note on that sound.
Now hook everything up 4cm (or your way of that) but put all FX off/stby and now adjust the GT5 levels (input/send/output/....) to match (as close as) that sound you got before (Gtr>Mp-1).
Put the Noise gate first (since you dan´t want any noise to get amplified....) and work your way up step-by-step/fx-by-fx until it sounds good.....

Done this before but I'll try it again.  I keep getting paranoid like it's the guitars I'm using etc  but they are fine with the boss and 50ish on the noise reduction is sufficient enough.

The GT5 has a send level that's it.  However in all honesty, I never need to mess with it because the level coming out is pretty much the exact same as the guitar until say I put an over drive on which would then feed into the MP1.  I level match on my Boss the whole way through the chain so nothing is ever above 70% of their meter.  I'll try your suggestion anyways.


I run things a little different to be able to have everything in stereo and that is by using the RJM Mini Line Mixer.

As you can see in the attachment I plug in the the input of the MPX-G2 > the FX Send to go in the input of the MP1 >send and return of the loop in the MP1 to ad the Rane MPE 28 EQ >>> then I separate things in two:

a) I use the MP1 outputs to have a stereo output that includes an effect added before the MP1 and I plug that to the dry channels of the RJM Mini Line Mixer
b) AND THEN (this is something I develop thanks to this forum) I use the MP1 headphone out to send a the stereo signal to the Returns of the MPX-G2. All the effects running in this part are 100% WET and go to other channels in the RJM Mini Line Mixer

So to finish it off I go from the outputs of the mixer to stereo poweramps and speaker cab (but for now I only run it in mono because I need the other poweramp).

this sounds like a great idea man, I could never have a set up like this though, 15mins to get on and off stage usually at gigs, I wouldn't have time for all that cabling.  It just about make it now with the setup I use currently.  I know Richard uses a mixer also but I could never in a million years see me start to drag a mixer about with me as part of my rig.  I shouldn't have to if I got the noise issues sorted.  @El Chiguete do you bring all your stuff to gigs?  I mean use that exact setup for every show you play?

guitar > Boss GT5 > Control pedal > 2 x Power amps > 2  4 x 12" (one either side of the stage)
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GX700 Boss SX700 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Koch ATR4502 - Peavey Classic 50/50
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"
Midi Controller: Behringer FCB1010

El Chiguete

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Re: Racks and Planes
« Reply #44 on: Time Format »

@El Chiguete do you bring all your stuff to gigs?  I mean use that exact setup for every show you play?

To be honest I dont play as often as I would like live (sadly) and I havent done it with this rig yet, but when everything is set up and connected inside in the rack all that I should do is to connect the rack to the speaker cab and then connect the floor controller to the rack and I should be ready to go  :banana:

PS:
I should be doing some extra experimentation to add even further flexibillity to this setup but thats for a future thread when I finish that idea.
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'81 Kramer Pacer Standard
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