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[MikeB]

I'm curious to know what you guys are using to control your midi stuff.  I was happily cruising along for years with an MP1 and no effects at all (budgetary constraints) so the MC-1 was perfect.  However, I have recently added a TC-electric G Major 2 to my rack and this thing can do a lot more than just change programs; continuous control of parameters using an expression pedal, for example.  So, I started looking for an alternative to the MC-1.  Ideally, something just like the MXC that came with the MP-2.  Couldn't find a lot out there and in the end I settled on the Behringer FCB-1010.  In fact, I couldn't really find anything else that had what I wanted.  I'm pretty happy with this controller.  It has its faults but ultimately it can drive the G Major the way it was meant to be driven.  Reasonable price too.

The thing that I am interested in particularly, is what alternatives are out there.  Am I just crap at searching the internet?  What do you guys use?

[Dante]

I guess I'm not gonna be much help, I use the ADA MXC with a Quad switch and the CC pedal.

I don't know for sure but, I would think the G-major would be able to accept controls from the Quad switch on an MXC controller. That is a Godsend for me. I have a friend who uses a Ground Control, but those are kinda pricey.

[MikeB]

The MXC would be ideal.  The main advantage it has over the FCB-1010 is the quad switch for sending CCs.  The FCB can still do it, but it gets messy and you end up sacrificing a program change for a Control Change.  That I don't mind so much (who needs 10 different patches in a song anyway) but it bugs me that if I do that then the light stays on next to the switch that did the CC rather than illuminating switch for the patch that I am currently on.  This is also a nit-pick, because who really loses track of which patch they are currently using.  My setup is a long way from being so complex that this becomes an issue.  I just think that for neatness it would be good to have some separate switches that I could use for CC and for tapping etc.  The Ground Control looks good.  Probably a good thing for my bank account that I didn't find it first.

Not sure if the G-Major 2 will accept the quad switch directly.  My impression is that it is intended for an expression pedal.

[rnolan]

Not sure if the G-Major 2 will accept the quad switch directly.  My impression is that it is intended for an expression pedal.
The Quad switch works through the MXC (as does the expression pedal), that's not to say it (quad switch) wouldn't work with other midi CC pedals that accept a stereo lead in for CC chages, just haven't come across that except with the MXC.  The TC wants/needs midi CC messages, so 5 pin midi lead, or otherwise, generally not talking midi...  The pedal and the quad switch need their signals turned into midi/midi CC data, that's done in the MXC and also in the FCB-1010, the MXC probably has a Zialog Z80 CPU (hey Mike, we know how to program one of those  , albeit in Pascal...), I'm pretty sure that's what's in the MC1 pedal to make it tick/midi etc.

[rnolan]

After a sip of wine and a quick cigarette (Mike will understand, it's where I do my thinking at 11pm...) I'd proffer this:
Midi is just another (allbit quite specific) network protocol (like UDP, TCP, NTP etc), it's probably more like UDP than anything else ?? (i.e trusted packets).  What comes out of the quad switch or CC pedal gets turned into (by some code running on a CPU) midi data streams/messages which are then sent and received, acknowledged (2 way hand shake), interpreted and used at the other end (e.g. Mikes TC or my MP2).  So these smarts/CPU etc are in the pedal circuit (MXC, FCB-1010 etc).  In Mikes case, the FCB-1010 has the switches/CCs' built in, with the MXC they are plug ins (CC pedal/quad switch) but the program change buttons are built in.  Also the software/firmware that runs it all is quite a bit different (more versatile is my understanding) in the FCB-1010 (more options).

[MarshallJMP]

The MXC and MXP use a 8051 µcontroller,no eprom,the 8051 has 4kB internal memory..The MC-1 has a Z80,with eprom.

Midi is actually a serial 8 bit protocol with a baudrate of 31.25kb/s.It will send out 2 or 3 bytes.

For us guitar players only 2 things from the protocol are used,program change and control change (and some midi sysex,but that depends on the manufacturer).

Program change uses only 2 bytes,control change uses 3 bytes.

First byte is the status byte,the first nibble (or 4 bits) of the status byte is the event.In case of program change it will be 1100,control change is 1011.The second nibble is the midi channel (0000 =channel 1,1111 = channel 16).

Second and thirt byte are the data bytes.So for program change there is only one,the first bit is always 0,the other 7 bits represent the program number.So for example 00000000 will be program nr 1,altough it's actually 0 most effect will add a 1 to this number so it's actually program change nr one.0111111 will be nr 128.This is why midi only goes to 128,altough you can always do a bank select to go higher but usually this is not supported on older gear.

Control change uses 2 databytes,first byte also starts with a 0 bit ,the other 7 bits are the controller nr.There are 120 control nrs,nr 120 to 127 are reserved as channel mode messages.The last byte starts again with a 0 and the other 7 bits are the value of the controller which goes from 0 to 127.

So if you sent 11000000 00000001 that means a program change on midi channel 1 program 1

11010000 00000011 01111111 means control change mid channel 1 controller nr 3 value 127

Does this make any sense 

[MikeB]

Oh.  Well that clears that up then.  Thanks guys.   

Richard, I'm afraid to say that MJMP made much more sense than you.  Perhaps he is doing his posting pre-wine.   

So the MXC Quad switch is a stereo lead into the MXC itself.  Then it is unlikely that it will work directly on the TC.  The FCB-1010 will take a midi-in so that I can daisy chain more midi controllers.  If I could find one that was like the Quad Switch but that output midi CC messages then I would be in business.  Then there is only the power supply to consider.  No phantom power on the 1010.  One day when the warranty runs out I might look at hacking it.

[MarshallJMP]

The quad switch will only work on the MXC pedal.

So why don't we build a ADAdepot midi switcher.Everybody can join in.I just bought this experiment board from mikroelektronika.It's pic based. http://www.mikroe.com/easypic/ .I also have a license for picbasic  http://www.mikroe.com/mikrobasic/pic/ .This software can be downloaded for free and you can use it for free up to 2 k words of output code.

This way i can make something that will resemble the MXC.But with  build in buttons for program change and control change and for 2 or even more swell pedals.The case,well you can make what ever suits you. I would suggest 12 buttons for the program change (up,down and 0-9) and let's say 8 buttons for control change and 2 swell pedals.

[rnolan]

Go MJMP, man I'm in, this is a goood project. BTW many thanks for the Midi protocol brief/summary, and yes it's makes lots of sense  well I get it...so to me anyway,  well I spose both Mike (in his former life) and I are computer dudes (these days I do ICT Security).  When Mike and I were at Uni together (him straight from school, me as a 36 y/o mature age entry) we had to write a Pascal program to emulate/simulate a Z80, kind of developed a soft spot for it.... Anyway I'm happy to help!!  Maybe Mike and I can do some programming together again (guitar playing is probably more fun but we were a good team...)
I would suggest 12 buttons for the program change (up,down and 0-9) and let's say 8 buttons for control change and 2 swell pedals.
Sounds like a good place to start, plenty of versatility, 2 swell pedals is good (hey mike similar to the Behringer, is there any thing/features it offers we should consider ?)
Of course it needs a 7 pin lead and would be good if it ran on the same power supply set up as the ADA pedals (minimal fuss).

[MarshallJMP]

The Z80 is a good controller but it's kinda ancient.I would go for a modern pic controller like a PIC18F45K22.It has 32kB intern flash memory,cpu speed 16 MIPS which is mooooooooooore then enough for a midi pedal.It has 2 UARTS (we only need one) and every input can be used as a ADC (analog -digital convertor).For the rest 1536 RAM bytes and 256 EEPROM bytes.

http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en546239

So any help is welcome especially in the programming section.

[rnolan]

Hey MJMP, totally agree (the Z80 is ancient), and absolutely happy to help with the programming (or any other way I can).  So point us (I assume Mike is in, but his call) where you need/like us to help 
Another project worth doing simultaneously IMHO (and Machinator sort of dobbed you in for, coz he's to busy...well he said you were eminently suited for the task) is to develop my tube rack mount line mixer idea (~ 8 in, 6 sends, (maybe some aux returns) make connecting every thing easier and keep the analogue signal path) (so e.g. 4 12AX7s (1 triode per channel)).  Mike's comment on this line mixer idea was can it be Midi programable, well sure, but why/how, I was thinking of something a bit more simple.

[MarshallJMP]

Wow making a tube mixer is an all other thing then making a midi controller.The R&D will be quite expensive.Making a controller is nothing,it's just a small pcb,not many (inexpensive)parts,no expensive transformers.It's not that i don't want to help you out but you should consider that it will cost around 500 to 1000 euro's to make something like that.This is only for parts.You need to know that usually the first few prototypes will have buggs in them and it's not cheap to make prototype pcb's,since you only buy one pcb.

[rnolan]

Hey MJMP, many thanks for the perspective (and you are quite right, the R&D will be ex$ve), but hey on one hand one can dream  but I'd be ok with putting some $'s toward it, the idea is good I recon, can we do it (in any way) more cost effectively ?  I just want us to all have access to something to plug our stuff together in the best way possible. (good for keyboard players as well)

[MarshallJMP]

Problem is you know where you start but you don't know where it's going to end if you know what i mean.The chance that it will work perfect the first time is slim,especially with the thing you want to build.Alot of things could go wrong.Let's say you have a nasty hum or groundloop somewhere,you need to rebuild it all,so that means a new pcb plus all new parts (unless for the really expensive ones).To give you an example.Years ago i builded a midi patchbay,when it was finished it costed around 500 euro.See pics.

[rnolan]

Hey MJMP, I get where you are coming from, and you are totally correct, but does that mean we shouldn't try ?  Hey not that we need to do it, the midi pedal would be a good starting point though (and maybe we could build in your midi patch bay  )