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Author Topic: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)  (Read 235 times)

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xdiaba

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Hi, don't know if this subject was posted before but for me in completely new. Yesterday a friend who told me about this method, said the best way to connect a rack is in "Parallel", What that means exactly??  :dunno: ...well is just have a dry signal in one side and 100% wet in the other side, for example: if you run your system with two cabs, one of this is completely dry and the other one is totally wet, in order to do this you must have a mixer.

What I'm doing know is connect my mp1 (both outputs) to my gmajor and gm outputs (in stereo) to my power amp, but I realized (after the conversation) always will have a wet signal, no matter if has an effect on or off.

Does anyone has an experience with this parallel method?   :o
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Gear:
Ibanez Egen18 2008
Fender Stratocaster American Standard 1978 , Suhr DA bridge SD Stacks.
Gibson Les Paul Custom 2009
Ada mp1 ver. 2.00
TC Electronic gmajor2
Matrix GT1000FX Power Amp
Furman M-8DX
Marshall 1936 2x12 Cab

Kim

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

Somebody should correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that a rack connected in "Series" would simply be chaining the units together in order.  ie; preamp Outputs to fx unit Inputs, fx Outputs to poweramp Inputs, etc.

"Parallel" would be simply inserting the fx unit in the preamp's Loop while the preamp Outputs go to the poweramp Inputs.
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RIG OF FIRE:  ADA MP-2, Rocktron Xpression, Peavey Classic 60/60, Gator GPB-BAK-1 pedalboard, Korg DTR1000, Rolls MidiBuddy, Morley Tremonti wah, Saturnworks buffered splitter.
Mellotron section:  Boss CS-3, EHX Mel9, Morley Volume, Crate Powerblock.
Pair of 4x12 cabs:  each custom wired for both 2x12 guitar and 2x12 Mel9. diagram
HOME/STUDIO/COMBOS/STUFF:  ADA Quad Tube 150m, Crate G60XL, Saturnworks Saturn Fuzz, Boss LS-2, Rolls MidiBuddy.
GUITARS:  Jackson Kelly KE3 EMG 57/81, Jackson Kelly KE3 DiMarzio Breed/PAF Pro, Silvertone P-bass, '70s Gretsch Dorado acoustic.

rnolan

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

Hey xdiaba, I kind of did this topic to death in previous posts and experimenting with Mike and his set up (MP-1, GMaj2, B200s, cabs; so much like your rig). However, my main driver/interest was because I discovered the first thing a TC GMaj2 does (as do most modern Fx units) is A/D the signal, so now it's all digital and I wanted to preserve the MP-1 analogue signal all the way to the amp/cabs.  It does make a difference, but you need to compare and decide if it's enough difference.

So series is when the unit is placed "in" the signal path, parallel is when the unit is mixed in with the dry signal (as you do with a PA, studio etc) and generally requires a small mixer preferably with at least 2 Aux/Fx sends. Now, for the most part, Fx units have a "mix" control to set the dry/wet balance.  In essence, this is the same as parallel as the mix knob does the same/similar job as a mixer.  Using a mixer though makes getting gain structure correct and level settings to taste easier and is more versatile.

The MP-1 Fx loop is a mono serial loop, the signal is sent to Fx and returned.  Wet dry levels are set in Fx and it's mono only.  Chaining through a stereo Fx (eg GMaj2) is serial in one sense but the dry/wet mix is combined in parallel within the unit (but it's all digital within the unit). In this case, using a mixer is slightly better sonically as you can then preserve the MP-1 analogue signal all the way to the cabs.  Mike bought an ART Split Mix to set it up this way.  An yes it did sound better, but it wasn't a huge difference.  He then lost some of the CC abilities of the GMaj2, like master vol control which only works if you chain through it.  So he's gone back to chaining through it so he can use the CC features.

So your friend is correct (IMHO), and what it means exactly is using Fx sends and returns and then mixing that in with the dry signal. And in this setup, you run the Fx full wet and use the faders on the desk to adjust the relative levels. This is the way I've always run my rig using a small 8 ch desk with 3 Fx sends (Yamaha AM802). I never used the MP-1 loop (when I had MP-1) and even though the MP-2 has a stereo parallel loop (basically a small portion of a mixer), I've never used it either as I do it all with the desk (which is velcroed to the bottom of my rack).  You can also use a 8 ch 1 RU line mixer with either 2 Fx sends (or a stereo Fx send), smaller, and tidy in a rack setup.  Moreover, once it's set, you rarely touch it.

Doing wet/dry with speakers means the mixing of the signals happens in the air as you send dry to some cabs and full wet to others.  Eg say you have 4 ADA 2 x 12 slant split stacks and 2 stereo amps, you can send dry to one pair and full wet to the other pair, this will sound great but is more elaborate.

(What I'm doing know is connect my mp1 (both outputs) to my gmajor and gm outputs (in stereo) to my power amp, but I realized (after the conversation) always will have a wet signal, no matter if has an effect on or off) Well yes and no, if you turn all the Fx off, then you just have the dry signal (same as if you turned the GMaj2 mix knob to full dry) however, in the GMaj2, the dry signal has been digitised, so to that extent it is "wet" (and it's no longer analogue  :facepalm: ) Some of the older Fx units preserved the analogue dry signal (true analogue pass through). But this is a different conversation.

Based on Mike's journey, doing up the MP-1 (noise mod, bat mod, rear jack mod, MDRT mod, new tube board etc) and now running his rig much the same as you, it sounds great  :thumb-up: and he can again use the GMaj2's CC functions (in particular the master vol) BTW Mike uses a FCB1010 pedal.
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Studio Rig: MP2/MB1 > Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro > TC M-One XL > Behringer Truths (with Truth Sub) / QUAD ESL 63s
Live Rig: MP2/MB1 > Alesis Quadverb > Alesis Midiverb 4 > Yamaha AM802 > B200s/Carvin TS100/DCM200L > ADA Split Stacks/Mesa P112s

xdiaba

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

Thanks rnolan

Doing wet/dry with speakers means the mixing of the signals happens in the air as you send dry to some cabs and full wet to others.  Eg say you have 4 ADA 2 x 12 slant split stacks and 2 stereo amps, you can send dry to one pair and full wet to the other pair, this will sound great but is more elaborate.  <-- this is exactly what he said.

I didn't heard this way live but will try this weekend. My friend is pushing me to buy his mixer so you should have to ask him for a commission  ;D
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Gear:
Ibanez Egen18 2008
Fender Stratocaster American Standard 1978 , Suhr DA bridge SD Stacks.
Gibson Les Paul Custom 2009
Ada mp1 ver. 2.00
TC Electronic gmajor2
Matrix GT1000FX Power Amp
Furman M-8DX
Marshall 1936 2x12 Cab

Harley Hexxe

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

Somebody should correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that a rack connected in "Series" would simply be chaining the units together in order.  ie; preamp Outputs to fx unit Inputs, fx Outputs to poweramp Inputs, etc.

"Parallel" would be simply inserting the fx unit in the preamp's Loop while the preamp Outputs go to the poweramp Inputs.

Hey Kim,

    This is still a series setup, the only difference is you are placing the effects before the power amp as opposed to placing the effects after the power amp.
    Parallel would be with the with the preamp or power amp signal dry, but split into two channels, and the 2nd channel would have your effects in the signal path. These two channels would then be mixed before the final output.
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rnolan

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

Hey xdiaba, there's lots of ways to set your rig up. In the end it's what works for you.  Wet/Dry speaker setups are much easier to do if you have a mixer, ideally with 4 Fx sends and also 4 subgroups. You can then route the various signals to the subgroups and send the subgroup direct outs to separate poweramps.  I have a couple of Eurorack UB2442FX desks that are perfect to do this.  I did try a wet/dry cab setup a while ago (briefly), it sounded ok, different though. I used my Marshall 50 (with power soak) for dry, I micked up the dry cab and fed it into a desk applied Fx and sent that signal to stereo cabs. Wet/Dry setups are not very convenient for live as all the additional gear and then what/which cabs does the sound guy mic...

What mixer is he trying to sell you ?
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Studio Rig: MP2/MB1 > Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro > TC M-One XL > Behringer Truths (with Truth Sub) / QUAD ESL 63s
Live Rig: MP2/MB1 > Alesis Quadverb > Alesis Midiverb 4 > Yamaha AM802 > B200s/Carvin TS100/DCM200L > ADA Split Stacks/Mesa P112s

Kim

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

Somebody should correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that a rack connected in "Series" would simply be chaining the units together in order.  ie; preamp Outputs to fx unit Inputs, fx Outputs to poweramp Inputs, etc.

"Parallel" would be simply inserting the fx unit in the preamp's Loop while the preamp Outputs go to the poweramp Inputs.

Hey Kim,

    This is still a series setup, the only difference is you are placing the effects before the power amp as opposed to placing the effects after the power amp.
    Parallel would be with the with the preamp or power amp signal dry, but split into two channels, and the 2nd channel would have your effects in the signal path. These two channels would then be mixed before the final output.

Ah I see.  We were talking about two different things then after all.  Thanks!
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RIG OF FIRE:  ADA MP-2, Rocktron Xpression, Peavey Classic 60/60, Gator GPB-BAK-1 pedalboard, Korg DTR1000, Rolls MidiBuddy, Morley Tremonti wah, Saturnworks buffered splitter.
Mellotron section:  Boss CS-3, EHX Mel9, Morley Volume, Crate Powerblock.
Pair of 4x12 cabs:  each custom wired for both 2x12 guitar and 2x12 Mel9. diagram
HOME/STUDIO/COMBOS/STUFF:  ADA Quad Tube 150m, Crate G60XL, Saturnworks Saturn Fuzz, Boss LS-2, Rolls MidiBuddy.
GUITARS:  Jackson Kelly KE3 EMG 57/81, Jackson Kelly KE3 DiMarzio Breed/PAF Pro, Silvertone P-bass, '70s Gretsch Dorado acoustic.

xdiaba

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

Hi rnolan, the mixer is a DMC (Digital Music Corp) System Mix
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Gear:
Ibanez Egen18 2008
Fender Stratocaster American Standard 1978 , Suhr DA bridge SD Stacks.
Gibson Les Paul Custom 2009
Ada mp1 ver. 2.00
TC Electronic gmajor2
Matrix GT1000FX Power Amp
Furman M-8DX
Marshall 1936 2x12 Cab

rnolan

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

Hey xdiaba, looks like a nice bit of kit  :thumb-up: very versatile, only 1RU.  If the price is right it would be a good buy IMHO.
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Studio Rig: MP2/MB1 > Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro > TC M-One XL > Behringer Truths (with Truth Sub) / QUAD ESL 63s
Live Rig: MP2/MB1 > Alesis Quadverb > Alesis Midiverb 4 > Yamaha AM802 > B200s/Carvin TS100/DCM200L > ADA Split Stacks/Mesa P112s

Harley Hexxe

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

Hey xdiaba, looks like a nice bit of kit  :thumb-up: very versatile, only 1RU.  If the price is right it would be a good buy IMHO.

  Except for the part where they recommend using the GCX to mute the preamp inputs. In the ADA's this causes a buzz because the GCX shorts to ground to mute the inputs.
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

That's strange, when you unplug the mp-1 the input is also shorted to ground?
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

I don't know all the details, I just know that when I had three preamps connected to the GCX and used the method they suggested, that is what was going on.
That is when I started to consider the Rane SM-82 for mixing the preamps into a stereo rig.
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GuitarBuilder

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Re: Parallel connection system (dry and wet)
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

I don't know all the details, I just know that when I had three preamps connected to the GCX and used the method they suggested, that is what was going on.
That is when I started to consider the Rane SM-82 for mixing the preamps into a stereo rig.

Sounds like a ground loop to me.
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