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Author Topic: rack mixer for effects  (Read 15334 times)

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Chamai

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rack mixer for effects
« on: Time Format »

it's been a long time all. i was super busy and finally finished moving to our new place and to celebrate  i got myself a lexicon pcm 81,  :banana-trip: to replace my g major. it's being shipped across the country now so i can't wait.

i am gasing for a few more things now, but i gotta wait a bit. i was wondering if you guys use mixers to run your fx's? i will being adding a tri chorus and another delay in the future but i want to run all 3 fx processors in parallel and blend them with the dry signal. i am running a mono rig. i want to hook up all 3 processors into a mixer and then back to the MP1's loop return.


i was looping at the rane sm26 diagram with 3 fx processors connected and back to the loop. my local long and mcquade said there is a used one at another store for $50 bucks but they can't find it!?!?! they are still looking for it. i really don't want to spend $600 for a new one.

i am not good with this stuff so bare with me. my guess is to set all 3 processors 100% wet and mix the levels of each processor with the mixer and back to the return of the mp1.

i am also looking at the alesis multimix8 as that's a more affordable alternative. will this one work?

i do want to run a w/d/w rig again in the future.

thanks guys


« Last Edit: Time Format by Chamai »
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ADA MP1/JCM800-- Fulltone TERC/ Eventide Eclipse /Lexicon PCM 81/ TC G Major. Marshall 9005 stereo/ (2) Rocktron 1x12 cabs
Amps:
Marshall JCM 800 100w on Orange 2x12
Marshall JCM 900 MKiii 50W 2x12
Mesa Dual Rectifier 100w on Mesa Rectifier 2x12




Guitars:
2008 Gibson Les Paul standard
2012 Fender American standard Telecaster
1984 Krammer ZX30H

rnolan

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

Hey Chamai, I've always used a mixer, initially with MP-1 now with MP-2.  I don't use the loop(s).  I have a small 8 ch desk (Yamaha AM802) which has 3 Aux/Fx sends which I run before the poweramp.  In this setup (which is all in stereo) the Fx are set full wet and then mixed at the desk (same as how you'd/I run a PA system).  I've looked at 1RU line mixers to save space (I have the desk velcroed to the bottom of my rack).  Most of the line mixers I've seen have only 1 stereo Fx send so you'd have to Y lead the Fx inputs to get the direct signal into them all.  With my MP-1 rig I used a Quadverb (and still do) and a IPS33 smartshift.  So MP-1 A/B out > ch1 & 2, Aux 1 & 2 to Quadverb L/R in, Aux 3 to IPS33 in.  Quadverb L/R out > ch 3 & 4, IPS A/B out > ch 5 & 6.  And I send the IPS returns also to the Quadverb (via Aux 1 & 2 on its return channels (ch 5 & 6)).
Probably the cheapest option is to use the ART Splitmix (though can do your head in a bit working it out LoL and you need a bunch of insert leads) Also as it's a passive device you loose a bit of signal.
While you can run something akin to this in the MP-1 loop (in mono), it's harder to get the gain structure right, the MP-1 loop is a bit touchy and uses a dual ganged (opposing) pot to adjust the send/ret level (turning send up turns ret down and vis versa).
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Chamai

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

thanks for the write up.

i do plan on using the fx loop of the mp1 and loop of my other amps as well, so thats why i am considering a line mixer

i see people plugging their processors in indivual channels of the mixer. looking at the alesis or samson. i just want some knowledge on how the guy's did it in the 80's by using a 1 or 2u rack mixer.
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ADA MP1/JCM800-- Fulltone TERC/ Eventide Eclipse /Lexicon PCM 81/ TC G Major. Marshall 9005 stereo/ (2) Rocktron 1x12 cabs
Amps:
Marshall JCM 800 100w on Orange 2x12
Marshall JCM 900 MKiii 50W 2x12
Mesa Dual Rectifier 100w on Mesa Rectifier 2x12




Guitars:
2008 Gibson Les Paul standard
2012 Fender American standard Telecaster
1984 Krammer ZX30H

rnolan

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

With the MP-1 you have a number of basic choices (which of course you can to some extent mix and match).
Put Fx up front
Put Fx in the "serial" Fx loop and adjust wet dry mix in Fx
Put mixer and Fx (full wet) in Loop and adjust wet dry and various Fx levels with mixer
Put mixer (and Fx (full wet)) after MP-1 before poweramp (this is the easiest way to get the gain structure and mix right all the other methods are much more fiddly)
Chain through Fx(s) after MP-1 and adjust wet dry mix in Fx (this is the most common often referred to as the 4 cable method)

The 1 and 2 RU line mixers I've seen only have one stereo Fx send and no way to pan between the L/R sends (so signal will go to both channels, well kind of, some of them have stereo inputs so the L ch will go to L Fx send and R to R Fx send if the input is stereo). If they had more and/or independent Fx sends, I would have bought one by now.

Probably the perfect solution would be to get a rack which can have the mixer rack mounted on top. Rack mount a Behringer Eurorack UB2442FX desk (they come with optional rack mount strips) and fill you boots.  The 2442 has 4 sends (1 & 2 are switchable pre fader (for monitors) and post fader (for Fx)), 3 & 4 are post fader. It also has 4 subgroups which you can use to feed different amp/cab combinations. It also has channel inserts if you wanted to use them for specific things (eg noise gate or compressor).
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vansinn

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

Just to notice: Front-mount rack mixers do exist, and can create a smaller rack, plus, especially if playing events, I'd say a rack not having a top-loaded mixer is a lot more practical.

Also, do notice that some of the pedal/effects loopers has programmable send/returns, mix-in and/or dry/wet mixing for each loop, which means they can replace a mixer - while simultaneously allow hooking up pedals, and further will allow wiring the whole shebang in series or parallel in different orders, preset by preset..

Rack mixers, like the Behringer 2U XR12 and the 3U X AIR XR18 (more channels and wifi) both comes with build-in effects, network and USB interface, has a multi-bus system for doing send/returns to/fro effects, while the 4U X32 RACK additionally can do eight effects and can be expanded with more hardware.

While this is indeed very sexy, due to being digital, there's nevertheless a certain latency involved.
The pedal/effects loopers, on the other hand, do the routing/mixing in analog, so latency is by far non existent.

Whether or not latency is important depends on how much it is and how much or little you'll be able to actually feel it ;)
Do note that sound travels ~340 meters per second, so 5 mS latency is roughly like standing 1.7 meters from your rig (340 meters / 0.005 seconds).
« Last Edit: Time Format by van Sinn »
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Chamai

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

thanks for the write up guys~

my mp1 is set to instrument level to go infront of my jcm 800 which has no loop. it sounds the best to my ears compared to my my other amps. so only way is use the mp1's loop

this is what i plan on doing, please see figure 13

http://www.rane.com/note108.html
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ADA MP1/JCM800-- Fulltone TERC/ Eventide Eclipse /Lexicon PCM 81/ TC G Major. Marshall 9005 stereo/ (2) Rocktron 1x12 cabs
Amps:
Marshall JCM 800 100w on Orange 2x12
Marshall JCM 900 MKiii 50W 2x12
Mesa Dual Rectifier 100w on Mesa Rectifier 2x12




Guitars:
2008 Gibson Les Paul standard
2012 Fender American standard Telecaster
1984 Krammer ZX30H

rnolan

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

Rane SM26, A very interesting and versatile gadget, IIRC Harley was telling me/us about them.  I found a couple in Australia that they wanted stupid money for.  I don't think they make them anymore  :dunno: but for sure you could do what you wanted with one of them.  How did you go understanding all the patching configurations it offers ?
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Chamai

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

Rane SM26, A very interesting and versatile gadget, IIRC Harley was telling me/us about them.  I found a couple in Australia that they wanted stupid money for.  I don't think they make them anymore  :dunno: but for sure you could do what you wanted with one of them.  How did you go understanding all the patching configurations it offers ?

spent the last 2 late night learning about routing and all that. not pro, but have a pretty good idea of what i am looking for. unfortunately for me, the sm26 is the only mixer that can do what i want. ofcourse i can always do custom audio stuff, but that stuff is stupid expensive. my local store found a 50 dollar sm26, but it's broken lol.

i guess i am going to have to ebay one. thankfully, they are not too expensive.

JUST RECIEVED MY PCM81!!!!! :green-banana-smiley-emoticon: have to run it in series for now. going to build a W/D/W rig. i have to say, it smokes my G major. a little over kill for the amount of perimeters i can adjust. i am just messing with the factory presets since i have no idea how to use it yet. i need study the manual.

still keeping the g major for delays only. since i don't do anything fancy with delays, it's more than enough to get the job done. next big purchase is going to be a fulltone tri chorus.

but i am going to still need a mixer.

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ADA MP1/JCM800-- Fulltone TERC/ Eventide Eclipse /Lexicon PCM 81/ TC G Major. Marshall 9005 stereo/ (2) Rocktron 1x12 cabs
Amps:
Marshall JCM 800 100w on Orange 2x12
Marshall JCM 900 MKiii 50W 2x12
Mesa Dual Rectifier 100w on Mesa Rectifier 2x12




Guitars:
2008 Gibson Les Paul standard
2012 Fender American standard Telecaster
1984 Krammer ZX30H

rnolan

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

To stay with a 1 or 2 RU rack footprint the new digital offerings (that Van was talking about) can probably do the job. I haven't researched them as I have no interest in a digital desk/mixer from an audio perspective (well not in the price range I can afford, and even then I'd rather have a valve Neave console...).  However, the digital stuff tends to have endless routing options.  You can also do what you want with a couple of ART Split Mix units (which are not expensive), albeit you'll loose some signal strength (as they are passive) and have to adjust for it. The Split mix takes a bit to get your head around but once you work them out, they offer allot of routing options.
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Chamai

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

again, thanks for the write up guys.

going for a w/d/w rig. just test a w/d setup today with the gear i have currently. sounds great.

now i need the money for 2x   sm26's

here's what my signal chain going to be ( all in stereo )

loop send to sm26. channel 1,2 out to pcm81.   channel 3,4 out to tri chorus  channel 5,6 out to (delay)  all 3 processor stereo out to all "in" on 2nd sm26.   left and right out put to mosvalve power amp. then out to 2 1x12 cabs.


i wish there is a cheaper alternative. I MUST have a rack mixer. looks cool. im trying build an overkill 80's rig.

now if i just had the money...

« Last Edit: Time Format by Chamai »
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ADA MP1/JCM800-- Fulltone TERC/ Eventide Eclipse /Lexicon PCM 81/ TC G Major. Marshall 9005 stereo/ (2) Rocktron 1x12 cabs
Amps:
Marshall JCM 800 100w on Orange 2x12
Marshall JCM 900 MKiii 50W 2x12
Mesa Dual Rectifier 100w on Mesa Rectifier 2x12




Guitars:
2008 Gibson Les Paul standard
2012 Fender American standard Telecaster
1984 Krammer ZX30H

rnolan

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

 :whoohoo!: , hope you can find the SM26s you need  :thumb-up:
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Chamai

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

picking up a custom audio electronics stereo mixer

totally forgot about that brand.

400 bucks US. i will request for a full rack format though
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ADA MP1/JCM800-- Fulltone TERC/ Eventide Eclipse /Lexicon PCM 81/ TC G Major. Marshall 9005 stereo/ (2) Rocktron 1x12 cabs
Amps:
Marshall JCM 800 100w on Orange 2x12
Marshall JCM 900 MKiii 50W 2x12
Mesa Dual Rectifier 100w on Mesa Rectifier 2x12




Guitars:
2008 Gibson Les Paul standard
2012 Fender American standard Telecaster
1984 Krammer ZX30H

rnolan

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

Hey Chamai, not quite sure how you plan to plug things in with that gadget  :dunno:   It doesn't have any Fx sends as such just lots of inputs (you could use the expansion out(s) to feed Fx?).  This one is discontinued (http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/mixers/pl-mixers/pl1602/) but would be perfect, it has 2 Aux/Fx sends.
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Chamai

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #13 on: Time Format »

http://www.customaudioelectronics.com/resources/specs/MiniMixerblockdiagram.pdf

check this out. looks like it will work. what u think?
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ADA MP1/JCM800-- Fulltone TERC/ Eventide Eclipse /Lexicon PCM 81/ TC G Major. Marshall 9005 stereo/ (2) Rocktron 1x12 cabs
Amps:
Marshall JCM 800 100w on Orange 2x12
Marshall JCM 900 MKiii 50W 2x12
Mesa Dual Rectifier 100w on Mesa Rectifier 2x12




Guitars:
2008 Gibson Les Paul standard
2012 Fender American standard Telecaster
1984 Krammer ZX30H

rnolan

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Re: rack mixer for effects
« Reply #14 on: Time Format »

Hey Chamai, cool, that will work.  I didn't realise there's an internal connection from the Mix1 outs to the mix2 1&2 ins which, from the diagram, don't get broken when you plug a jack in  :thumb-up: . It will be a bit fiddly getting all the various gadgets inputs and outputs right but once they are set you'd rarely touch them.  You also will have the Mix2 Exp outs L/R which will be the same signal as is going to the power amp, you could run another amp cab combo or cab sim for recording.
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