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[El Chiguete]

Has anyone put the signal of a dummy load from tube poweramp to MP-1 fx loop return? The idea is to capture the warmth of the tube poweramp and then apply effects to that and then use a transparent poweramp to send it to the cabinet... like when you add effects in the studio after the recordings or in the soundboard when playing live.

[El Chiguete]

Rat Valve Amp Speaker Dummy Load Box http://ratvalveamps.com/dummy-load

Anyone used this? does it suck tone? I'm looking for a dummy load with a line out without speaker cab simulation.

[rnolan]

Hey El Chiguete.  The rat valve thing is a dummy load to go after a power amp (valve or tube, 50watts max) (i.e. pretend to be a speaker from the amps point of view and give you a line level signal to plug into a desk (hence they mostly have cab emulation as well), IMHO the new ADA GCS-3 would be better and you can turn the cab sim off (http://www.adaamps.com/Products/ada-GCS/GCS.htm)).   You could go MP1 fx send > tube power amp in > power amp out to dummy load (GCS-3?), dummy load out (line level (DI)) to MP1 fx return (is this you idea/question ?).  To put something like that in the MP1 loop is absolutely crazy gain structure though. That said, (an old Tom Shultz power soak "might" also work ? (variable dummy load, no cab sim), I use one with my 1972 Marshall (no master vol) but that's to turn the speaker vol down while running the amp flat chat) and you'd still need one channel of a tube power amp for the loop idea.
The MP1/2s' are designed to do all your tone shaping (i.e. work your warmth out there) and run through a very transparent power amp.  If you want some (additional) tube power amp warmth, use a tube power amp after the MP1 and possibly drive it a bit harder (crank MP1 vol, turn down the power amp to suit..) to try to get some power amp distortion ?.
I used a B200s for years (and loved it), I now use a Carvin TS100 all tube power amp, it's very transparent, maybe a little bit warmer than the B200s ?.  Other tube power amps are more coloured and may be what you are chasing ?

[El Chiguete]

Hey El Chiguete.  The rat valve thing is a dummy load to go after a power amp (valve or tube, 50watts max) (i.e. pretend to be a speaker from the amps point of view and give you a line level signal to plug into a desk (hence they mostly have cab emulation as well), IMHO the new ADA GCS-3 would be better and you can turn the cab sim off (http://www.adaamps.com/Products/ada-GCS/GCS.htm)).   You could go MP1 fx send > tube power amp in > power amp out to dummy load (GCS-3?), dummy load out (line level (DI)) to MP1 fx return (is this you idea/question ?).  To put something like that in the MP1 loop is absolutely crazy gain structure though. That said, (an old Tom Shultz power soak "might" also work ? (variable dummy load, no cab sim), I use one with my 1972 Marshall (no master vol) but that's to turn the speaker vol down while running the amp flat chat) and you'd still need one channel of a tube power amp for the loop idea.

The reason why I thought of using MP1 fx send > tube power amp in > power amp out to dummy load (GCS-3?), dummy load out (line level (DI)) to MP1 fx return was because I want to use the stereo chorus of the MP1 and just buy one dummy load and use just one tube poweramp... if it would really cause major problems with the gain structure of the signal then I guess I need to buy 2 dummy loads and another poweramp and run that after the MP1 and before my effects processor that btw it has stereo ins. I really think ADA should do a GCS-4 that would come either in rack mount or pedal form that would work for a stereo setting and like the GCS-2 you can sellect either line or mic leve output (the GCS-3 only has line level output).

PS:
TOTALLY forgot that with the GCS-3 you could turn off the cab sims and work with speaker levels! 

The MP1/2s' are designed to do all your tone shaping (i.e. work your warmth out there) and run through a very transparent power amp.  If you want some (additional) tube power amp warmth, use a tube power amp after the MP1 and possibly drive it a bit harder (crank MP1 vol, turn down the power amp to suit..) to try to get some power amp distortion ?.
I used a B200s for years (and loved it), I now use a Carvin TS100 all tube power amp, it's very transparent, maybe a little bit warmer than the B200s ?.  Other tube power amps are more coloured and may be what you are chasing ?

Before I was using a Microtube100 poweramp and when I tested my modded Epiphone Valv Jr. it was a day/night difference in added warmth to the tone that I've never looked back.

[Sparker]

Sounds like you want an Ampulator type box in the MP-1 effects loop, to give you added power tube saturation? Also, I don't think the GCS-3 provides a power amp load, just the sound characteristics of the speaker.

[El Chiguete]

... Also, I don't think the GCS-3 provides a power amp load,...

Well you are correct, it is not a load, you still need connect the speaker to it. I guess this works great for a W/D/W setup.

[rnolan]

Sounds like you want an Ampulator type box in the MP-1 effects loop, to give you added power tube saturation? Also, I don't think the GCS-3 provides a power amp load, just the sound characteristics of the speaker.

My understanding of GCS-3 is you can plug the power amp speaker out into the GSC-3 in (-30db pad) and  GCS-3 out to desk (cab sim in or out), no speaker required. (the GCS-3 is designed (from what I can glean) to let you plug your guitar amp (Marshall, Bogie, Fender Twin whatever) into a desk/recording input).  ADA have changed their paradigm a bit e.g. APP-1, all SS, 2 basic sounds with some loop connectivity, again more geared to plug into a guitar amp.  Both the GCS-3 and APP-1 would work well with my 1972 Marshall 50 (no master vol, no loop) to plug it into a recording setup without speakers or mic(s) and all mono, check the manual attached.  This is a big move away from MP1.

[rnolan]

Well you are correct, it is not a load, you still need connect the speaker to it. I guess this works great for a W/D/W setup.

Sorry El Chiguete, but what's W/D/W ? please pardon my ignorance 
Ok I think I get what you are wanting to do, you want to add the "mono" warmth of your Epiphone Valve Jr (a guitar amp (i.e. preamp and power amp combined in the one box, as all guitar amp are (tube or SS or hybrid, except the vJnr power amp is class A and most guitar power amps are Class B (push pull)))) but have it stereo (chorus, effects etc) in the end ??
So, to do this in the MP1 loop, MP1 send > Epiphone Valve Jr in, Epiphone Valve Jr speaker out > GCS-3 in (-30db pad), GCS-3 out (cab sim off/out) > MP1 return, MP1 A/B out > effect L/R in, effect L/R out to stereo power amp > 2 cabs (this will work as a live set up, or GCS-3 cab sim on/in and effect L/R out > desk or recording inputs for recording).
While above should work, the gainstructure in the loop (any loop) is all wrong and the MP1's loop isn't particularly accommodating as it's 1 dual ganged pot (turning it up increases send and decreases return levels and visa versa), Unfortunately the Epiphone Valve Jr doesn't give you many options from what I can see in google pics (the schematic looked promising (preamp out/power amp out) but you can't get in and out of it except guitar in/speaker out ?? pls correct me if I'm wrong or you have a more souped up model??), so you'd want the MP1 send to be inst level (milli volts) and the MP1 return to be line level (volts), isn't gonna work well with the MP1 loop so major gain miss-match (if MP1 had separate send/return level controls, then different story).  This is part of the reason I use a small mixer to plug it all together, you have individual control of all the inputs and outputs so can gain match as required...
Anyway, to get the Valve Jnr into you sound with the MP1, I think there are there are better ways to achieve this (another conversation....).
Also, unless your stereo effect unit has a true analogue pass through for the MP1 A/B outs (direct signal) it's not optimal to put it (chain it) between MP1 and power amp/record ins.  This is because most digital effect devices A/D the signal on input and then D/A them at the output (some/few have analogue pass through).  I know I rant on about this (see other posts) but my mate MikeB has just vindicated my opinion on this by using an ART splitter mixer (also see other posts) so now his TC Gmaj is "mixed into" the analogue MP1 output signal (he used to chain through it, as do lots of MP1 users, which, while convenient, and seems logical (is it called the 4 cable method ??)) is a bad idea sonically (depends how much you care though I suppose).  He was quite skeptical at first, but now he's done it, he said there is a significant improvement keeping the MP1 analogue all the way to power amp (as I suggested to him there would/should be). Anyway he will no doubt post his findings/experience at some point.
So he's used the ART splitter and 4 x stereo to 2 x mono jack (insert) leads to achieve this (all the ART jacks are stereo), works fine for one stereo effect unit (as I suggested in other posts).  Big improvement in sound, but unfortunately he loses the ability to control his master vol via the TC with midi CC foot controller.  And to combine more than one effect unit (lets call your Jnr idea a (louder, mono) warmth effect unit) so it was also sent to the other effects, you need a mixer (8 channel, 3 or better 4 effects (Aux) sends)

[El Chiguete]

Sorry El Chiguete, but what's W/D/W ? please pardon my ignorance 

Wet/Dry/Wet setup, thats to have a center cab running just the dry sound of your amp and on the 2 other cabs run just the stereo effects.

Ok I think I get what you are wanting to do, you want to add the "mono" warmth of your Epiphone Valve Jr (a guitar amp (i.e. preamp and power amp combined in the one box, as all guitar amp are (tube or SS or hybrid, except the vJnr power amp is class A and most guitar power amps are Class B (push pull)))) but have it stereo (chorus, effects etc) in the end ??
So, to do this in the MP1 loop, MP1 send > Epiphone Valve Jr in, Epiphone Valve Jr speaker out > GCS-3 in (-30db pad), GCS-3 out (cab sim off/out) > MP1 return, MP1 A/B out > effect L/R in, effect L/R out to stereo power amp > 2 cabs (this will work as a live set up, or GCS-3 cab sim on/in and effect L/R out > desk or recording inputs for recording).
While above should work, the gainstructure in the loop (any loop) is all wrong and the MP1's loop isn't particularly accommodating as it's 1 dual ganged pot (turning it up increases send and decreases return levels and visa versa), Unfortunately the Epiphone Valve Jr doesn't give you many options from what I can see in google pics (the schematic looked promising (preamp out/power amp out) but you can't get in and out of it except guitar in/speaker out ?? pls correct me if I'm wrong or you have a more souped up model??), so you'd want the MP1 send to be inst level (milli volts) and the MP1 return to be line level (volts), isn't gonna work well with the MP1 loop so major gain miss-match (if MP1 had separate send/return level controls, then different story).  This is part of the reason I use a small mixer to plug it all together, you have individual control of all the inputs and outputs so can gain match as required...

Yes thats basicly the order and yes the Valve Jr. doesn't have more inputs to run a loop and use it the return to work just like a power amp BUT suprisingly it still works great on the input... so lucky me jeje.

Anyway, to get the Valve Jnr into you sound with the MP1, I think there are there are better ways to achieve this (another conversation....).
Also, unless your stereo effect unit has a true analogue pass through for the MP1 A/B outs (direct signal) it's not optimal to put it (chain it) between MP1 and power amp/record ins.  This is because most digital effect devices A/D the signal on input and then D/A them at the output (some/few have analogue pass through).  I know I rant on about this (see other posts) but my mate MikeB has just vindicated my opinion on this by using an ART splitter mixer (also see other posts) so now his TC Gmaj is "mixed into" the analogue MP1 output signal (he used to chain through it, as do lots of MP1 users, which, while convenient, and seems logical (is it called the 4 cable method ??)) is a bad idea sonically (depends how much you care though I suppose).  He was quite skeptical at first, but now he's done it, he said there is a significant improvement keeping the MP1 analogue all the way to power amp (as I suggested to him there would/should be). Anyway he will no doubt post his findings/experience at some point.
So he's used the ART splitter and 4 x stereo to 2 x mono jack (insert) leads to achieve this (all the ART jacks are stereo), works fine for one stereo effect unit (as I suggested in other posts).  Big improvement in sound, but unfortunately he loses the ability to control his master vol via the TC with midi CC foot controller.  And to combine more than one effect unit (lets call your Jnr idea a (louder, mono) warmth effect unit) so it was also sent to the other effects, you need a mixer (8 channel, 3 or better 4 effects (Aux) sends)

I think we need to start a new thread for the the ART SPLITMix4 box or  the small mixer option for an option to conserving more the tone of the MP1, I've read how you do it but honestly I have a combination of not understanding how to do it myself and that I think it might me a better solution: maybe the ART box is that solution (I've seen this before but never hear someone saying it actually really work on preserving the tone, I just didn't want to buy it and experiment myself to latter realize that it suck tone). BTW, I don't say that your mixer option is bad, just that it would require me to have an even bigger rig and problems to deal with... and I'm just too lazy to do that jeje.

[rnolan]

Ahh W/D/W, I get it, I used to do this years ago, MP1/2 in stereo (using mixer as always, I've always done it this ways for effects send/return) B200s > 2 x ADA slant split stacks and my '72 Marshall 50 down the middle, dry into 2 x 12 cab (open back fender twin speakers (probably Eminence sprs)).  Split the guitar signal (I modified an old peavy foot switch to be (guit in, A out or B out or A + B out, so A to ADA, B to Marshall, one switch selected between A or B the other selected A + B)), great sound but lots to lug to a gig....  I'm going to do it again soon to record (2 x Rode NT5s L/R on ADA cabs, Rode NT1 and EV RE20 in the centre for Marshall (they'll pick up some ADA L/R as well)).
This would sort of work for what you're trying to do although Jnr would be dry but if you say used an old Yamaha 802 like I do (8 chan, 3 eff sends), MP1 out to chan 1/2, send 1/2 to stereo effect in L/R (eff return out L/R down chan 3/4), send 3 to Jnr (turn right down to not overload jnr input to much (or do the voltage divider thing before Jnr input))...  Or split your guitar signal with a Y lead (jack to 2 jacks) is another option.
The ART is interesting, took a few reads of their blurb before I got how it works (see other posts...).  MikeB reports it doesn't suck tone but does reduce gain (depending on what else you plug in/out of it) because it's totally passive, no power supply/opp amps like a desk has.  So he found that he can turn up any unused channel(s) and get more direct signal back.  It will work well with 1 stereo effect unit.

[El Chiguete]

The ART is interesting, took a few reads of their blurb before I got how it works (see other posts...).  MikeB reports it doesn't suck tone but does reduce gain (depending on what else you plug in/out of it) because it's totally passive, no power supply/opp amps like a desk has.  So he found that he can turn up any unused channel(s) and get more direct signal back.  It will work well with 1 stereo effect unit.

Reduce gain... there is never a clear solution to our gear problems jeje, but when you less gain is how much? is it a volume lost (how much in % from the original) or actual gain in like having a less distorted overdrive sound?

[rnolan]

Hey El Chiguete, gain is just that, gain (i.e. more, in this case volts).  Guitar puts out millivolts (generated by string/pickups) > preamp boosts gain to volts (MP1 uses tubes to do this (although SS voice uses transistors, does the same job gain wise but sounds quite different)) > power amp boosts into watts (much bigger A/C volts) > cabs turn watts into SPL that people hear, so that's the overall basic gain structure.  Within each bit/section/circuit  however (particularly the pre amp (MP1 in your case) there are various other (possible) gain stages). Higher output guit pickups (= more gain from guitar = more millivolts) which then drive preamp input harder, pre amp feeds signal through 2 x 12AX7s (thus boosted 4 times (twin triodes (wiki it)) distortion achieved by overloading the next stage progressively (tube stages sound good when pushed/overloaded (clipping), this is the foundation of what we do/our sounds...), now the signal is volts.  The basic sound/signal  is now established, it can then be  modified (eq), added to (effects), these also effect the overall vol/gain but don't change what happened in the tubes (distorsion etc), but can affect the overall level (also gain..).
Using the ART splitter can result in slightly reduced gain (not distortion, that already happened) on its sends as it is splitting the energy from its input (MP1 A/B out > ART in) to each of its stereo outs (x 4).  Easy to accommodate though, just turn the vols up (MP1 out, ART vols etc).  Hope this helps ?

[El Chiguete]

I think that explenation that you just gave me should be put in wikipedia and every site that talks about gain! jeje Well ok, since the overal tone is not affected then im happy with that.