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Author Topic: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp  (Read 1561 times)

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rabidgerry

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Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« on: Time Format »

Hi guy's, has anyone any experience with this brand of amp?

I am very interested in this model

http://www.koch-amps.com/guitar-poweramp-atr-4502.html

Given that it is only 90watts though I worry it will not be loud enough since I currently use a 300watt rocktron velocity amp.

Anyways, Koch are interested in endorsing me and if I had to use some of their product this would be the first thing I would want to try.  At 5.5kg it would be perfect for taking on the plane like the one I shall board this Tuesday on my way to play in Malta  :headbanger:

Be interested to hear any opinion on this brand and also this amp if any of you have tried it.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GT5 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Harley Benton GPA400
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"

Systematic Chaos

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

Wow, Koch amps are some serious "almost Boutique" stuff, Dutch amp manufacturer with a really high renommee.
Don't be intrigued by the wattage. e.g. a Boogie, Marshall or Engl 2x20w tube poweramp blows the 300w Rocktron straight outta the water volume wise.
Although the ATR-4502 is a hybrid, it gives you more of that tube warmth, depth and punch than the Rocktron or Thomann.
It´s the same power sections as in their Jupiter Amps, basically 2 Jupiter 45 poweramp stages.
Check that amp for some sound bits.
...and don't judge the book by its cover (watts wise).
If you can secure a good deal with them go for it  :thumb-up:
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rabidgerry

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

Wow, Koch amps are some serious "almost Boutique" stuff, Dutch amp manufacturer with a really high renommee.
Don't be intrigued by the wattage. e.g. a Boogie, Marshall or Engl 2x20w tube poweramp blows the 300w Rocktron straight outta the water volume wise.
Although the ATR-4502 is a hybrid, it gives you more of that tube warmth, depth and punch than the Rocktron or Thomann.
It´s the same power sections as in their Jupiter Amps, basically 2 Jupiter 45 poweramp stages.
Check that amp for some sound bits.
...and don't judge the book by its cover (watts wise).
If you can secure a good deal with them go for it  :thumb-up:

Wattage arguments..................here we go again.  Man 300watt Roctron is pretty loud.  I've never had past 2/3rds of the way, and the only reason I was up that high was I was using 16ohm cabs.

The only reason I mention the wattage thing is because it's not a full tube amp.  So you've just compared a Boogie, Marshall or Engl 2x20w tube poweramp with a 90watt hybrid amp which only has two 12ax7 tubes in it either side.  I think my being dubious isn't so silly.

Sure we all know 50watt tube amp is as loud as an SS amp 300watt or more but this is some kind of weird class D thing with two tubes inside it.  If someone tells me that I treat the hybrid as though it were tube then hell yeah 90watts (nearly 100watts) is fine.

This amp is 5 kilo lighter than a velocity and about the same weight as my Thomann Harley Benton class D SS amp so if I score an amp with something similar to the Velocity "tubey" feel but a lot lighter then I am on to a winner.  I cannot take my rocktron on the plane with me as it's to heavy as hand luggage when coupled with a preamp (I've stripped my rack back at the minute down to preamp and power amp purely for traveling abroad normally I have a power conditioner and noise gate included)  so it looks like I'm taking the lighter Harley Benton (good but not the velocity) instead and a little noise gate pedal to fill in for the ns-50.

« Last Edit: Time Format by rabidgerry »
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GT5 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Harley Benton GPA400
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"

Systematic Chaos

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

Gerry, I merely said/meant hear them out what they wanna offer and if its good go for it. Who knows, maybe you'll end up with a Pedaltone II and an ATR-4502 (I sure as hell wouldn´t mind that combo).
Peace bro!!
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rabidgerry

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

Oh I know, I'm just curious to see if this 90watt hybrid is as loud as a SS 300watt amp.  That's my bench mark currently so I need the same or me for me to make it work with my rack gear.

I looked at the pedal tone, not sure I would use half of that, who needs clean channels  :lol: :lol: :lol:, however as a portable preamp for plane journeys the superlead preamp pedal seems more of a solution to me.

They've initially asked me what I'm interested in so I've put forward the ATR-4502.  This surely has to be loud enough to compete with other guitar power amps.  Fingers crossed it is, the concept is unique to poweramps I believe and interesting.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GT5 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Harley Benton GPA400
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"

Kim

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

Oh I know, I'm just curious to see if this 90watt hybrid is as loud as a SS 300watt amp.  That's my bench mark currently so I need the same or me for me to make it work with my rack gear.

There's two things to also consider here. 

The perceived volume is not linear with wattage ratings. 
If you compare the maximum volume of say a 50 watt amp with a 100 watt amp, the difference is only going to be 3 dB....not much of a difference.  It would take an amplifier with 10 times more power  to be perceived as being twice as loud; a 10 dB increase.  It'll take 500 watts to sound twice as loud as 50 watts.   :o

A "hybrid" amp is...... still a Solid State amp. 
There's a tube or two attempting to add some "warmth" of the soft-clipping even-order harmonic distortion, but the final link to the speakers is still within the S.S. realm with transistors, Mosfets, etc.  Comparing the 90 watt hybrid to the 300 watt SS amp is comparing two Solid State poweramps.  Apples = apples.

Having put that out there now, if the 90 watt amp fits your travel weight requirements, then IMO it should do the job.  3-4 dB difference shouldn't be the deciding factor here.  And since the price might be perfect (free endorsement?) if the deal is made....well if I were in your shoes I'd just say "Yes please".  :)
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rabidgerry

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

Hmm I'm not convinced now a 90watt hybrid amp could provide the right amount of volume. 

I had a crate power block before which was 150watts SS and it wasn't loud enough.  I needed two of them to compete with our drummer.  Then I had enough and little more in the tank should I need it.  I have a 400watt SS amp, does the job and with some to spare and then also the Roctron 300watt amps and they roughly work out similar performance to the 400watt amp, so I'm not convinced 90 can cut it.

It wont be free either, but some kind of discount deal as they're too small a company (their words not mine).

I'll have to ask them how does their amp stack up to tube amp volume then and see what they say.

No point in buying something that will not be of use to me.  What I was hoping for was a lighter and potentially even better sounding amp than the Velocity.  I love the Velocity, it's great.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GT5 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Harley Benton GPA400
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"

rnolan

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

Hey RG, seems it's much like the ADA MT100 but modern  :dunno: .  I had a MT100 briefly, I found it under powered and wasn't keen on the tone, to be fair it didn't last long before I swapped it..
I've been using a Carvin DCM200L in my rack for a while now, plenty to get over the drummer and sounds quite good.  It's not class D (many Carvin amps are) which I prefer.  Class D adds yet another transduction layer (similar in concept (albeit works quite differently (pulse trains)) to sampling analogue signals into digital and back again, hence transduction (is that a word ?).

Can you try it and send it back if it isn't right for you ? Basically I recon you have to hear it.

From Wikipedia
A class-D amplifier or switching amplifier is an electronic amplifier in which the amplifying devices (transistors, usually MOSFETs) operate as electronic switches, and not as linear gain devices as in other amplifiers. They are rapidly switching back and forth between the supply rails, being fed by a modulator using pulse width, pulse density, or related techniques to encode the audio input into a pulse train. The audio escapes through a simple low-pass filter into the loudspeaker. The high-frequency pulses, which can be as high as 6 MHz, are blocked. Since the pairs of output transistors are never conducting at the same time, there is no other path for current flow apart from the low-pass filter/loudspeaker. For this reason, efficiency can exceed 90%.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

Interesting, didn't realise ADA MT100  was a hybrid, I thought it was all tube.  What didn't you like about the influence of that amp on your tone?  Just curious.

Doubt it's like this Koch amp.  But the under powered is the big issue here (providing it sounds good).  I doubt will be able to try before I buy to be honest.

I think my Harley Benton 400watt power amp is class D.  Light and Loud and Cheap.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GT5 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Harley Benton GPA400
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"

MarshallJMP

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

ADA does have a 2 x 50W full tube rack amp called the T100S and it weights about 12kg in a 2U rack housing. Mine puts out around 75W per side.
But I can agree that an MT100 is not loud at all, especially compared to a tube amp. Sound wise they are not so bad at all IMO.

I do agree with Gerry that maybe that Koch amp won't be loud enough.

@R, a class D amp is NOT digital actually. There is no AD or DA converter in it. PWM is made when you compare the original signal with a triangle wave, this will output PWM signals which are then amplified by MosFet's (due to their low Rds on resistance) and at the output they just filter out the high frequency's with a low pass filter restoring the original signal. And due to the fact they can get an efficiency  of 90%+ they can use smaller (switching) power supplies and less cooling, so they are lighter then other power amps.
« Last Edit: Time Format by MarshallJMP »
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rnolan

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

Hey MJMP, I know, we've had this discussion before  :thumb-up: , that's why I say it's similar "conceptually" as in, it takes the analogue signal, turns it into something else (in this case pulse trails (by comparing the signal with a triangle wave (so a form of sampling, but not digital sampling)) and then converts it back in to analogue audio, and as you say filters out the objectionable artifacts created in the process. And yes they are very efficient and light etc.  Amazing idea (how do they come up with this stuff).  I have a 4 x 500w Carvin DCM2004L class D amp for PA stuff (10lbs <> 4.53 kgs) pretty light for 2000w.
Can't see RG carting around a 2 RU TS100 LoL but I'm sure he'd love one (as would I  >:D ).

Hey RG, to be fair I didn't give the MT100 much of a chance, it had an annoying hum (which pissed me off), I had to run it off a step down trany as it was a US model. Apart from being under powered (for my needs) it didn't grab me tone wise so MJMPs opinion is probably more relevant than mine in that regard.
I swapped it with Dante for a US B200s which we installed a toroidal 240v trany (I think he got a good run from the MT100  :dunno: and the B200s went to a good home).  The MT100 needed 2 new 240v tranys, one for power and one for the tubes (IIRC) to use here in Oz, it has 1 toroidal and one normal trany in it.  They also made the MT200, same idea, hybrid but double the power and still 1 RU (these are the amps some members have been having neon cut out issues with). From all reports here the MT200 is a good amp.  But needing/having 2 tranys ups the weight (8 lbs <> 3.6 kgs) (http://web.archive.org/web/20040216185247/http://www.adadepot.com:80/adagear/subgear/poweramps.htm).  The Carvin DCM200L is 4lbs <> 1.8 kgs, 1RU and all analogue (and sounds nice on guitar).
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

The MT200 has a different power supply (switching) and doesn't come in a 240V version (at least I never saw one).
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rabidgerry

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

Ok Koch had this to say:

Quote
Because of the ATR technology you don’t need to have the same amount of watts like a class D amp. But they ATR also gives you the same (Full tube amp power sound)on any level. It sound and reacts like a full tube power amp with attenuator build in. But also the high voltage fets gives you a lot of tight bottom end!


He also went onto say Gary Holt of Slayer and Dave Linsk of Overkill swapped 1000watt Matrix amps out fr the Koch Atr.  So if loud enough for them then loud enough for me.
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GT5 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Harley Benton GPA400
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #13 on: Time Format »

Well Gerry, heard this all before, the only amp that sounds like a tube amp is... a tube amp. The rest is marketing talk. I'm not saying that these are bad amps but a SS amp will never, ever react like a tube amp even with some preamp tubes in it.
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rnolan

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Re: Koch ATR-4502 Power Amp
« Reply #14 on: Time Format »

Well Gerry, heard this all before, the only amp that sounds like a tube amp is... a tube amp. The rest is marketing talk. I'm not saying that these are bad amps but a SS amp will never, ever react like a tube amp even with some preamp tubes in it.
+1  :thumb-up:
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