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Author Topic: Getting Delayed with A/DA  (Read 3231 times)

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Harley Hexxe

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Getting Delayed with A/DA
« on: Time Format »

Okay Gang,

    Rather than posting these conversations in the G.A.S. thread, I'm starting a new topic to continue the discussions about the ADA delays here.

    Just to bring this into a little more focus, I'd like to start with the Digitizer 4 and it's connections regarding a "Stereo" setup. In the manual, they refer to this as a stereo setup, yet from my understanding, it more of a phase inverted mix if you use output connections A and B.
   Output A is the output mix of dry and wet delay signals while output B is a mix of dry and phase inverted delay/effect. Now, I've always looked at this as a physical connection to get a phase inverted effect from the Digitizer 4, since it doesn't have an "Invert" button on the front panel like the S-1000, or the "i" series delays before it. If you use the Invert on any of the older delays, your signal is all midrange with no highs or lows, and has a very Lo-Fi quality. Wouldn't this be the same effect you would get from the Output B of the Digitizer?
   Since the manual doesn't touch on this subject at all, how would you do your physical connections with this setup? Keeping in mind that the D4 was the current delay ADA was making at the time the MP-1 was introduced, and the MP-1 only had a Mono effects loop, how would you get your "Stereo" (or dual Mono) effect from that? Hooking one output to the loop and the other direct to the 2nd channel of the power amp?
   On the other hand, if you're using the Classic or the MP-2, would you return the Output B to the 2nd loop return, or go again, directly to the power amp?

   Let's see what we can come up with.

   Harley 8)
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rnolan

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #1 on: Time Format »

Hey Harley  :wave: , good topic  :thumb-up: . If you take outB to the poweramp, you'll loose the preamp stereo-ness and particularly chorus (but would work).  But hey they released it back then, how did they intend it to work ?  Easiest solution IMHO is us a desk, mono send stereo return, easy to mix and match, run unit full wet, and then assign the returns to the reverb (as well as the  dry)..... (part of the reason I've always used a small desk in my rig).  With MP-2 you could use send 1 and both returns (it's good that way) you can also plug your MP-1 into the MP-2 returns and just pick up the cab sims.

Some thoughts on inverted signals, which is also how the ADA preamps do pseudo stereo (as I understand it), obviously when you invert a signal it is now totally out of phase with the original. So when you combine them they will cause quite allot of phase cancellation (particularly the bottom and top end as you said earlier (unless you can keep it full wet and mix it in)), this is probably more "surgical" while it's still electrical (ie within various units), when it's in the air (inside and outside cabs) it's probably a bit less  :dunno: .  If you go with hard L/R pan (and keep them separated electrically (ie strick L/R signal paths)) and let them combine in the air outside the cabs, and keep the cabs "at least" their own width apart (stops infinite baffle coupling (and more cancellations)), then it can work well and sound great  :crazy: anyway my 2 cents worth
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Studio Rig: MP2/MB1 > Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro > TC M-One XL > Behringer Truths (with Truth Sub) / QUAD ESL 63s
Live Rig: MP2/MB1 > Alesis Quadverb > Alesis Midiverb 4 > Yamaha AM802 > B200s/Carvin TS100/DCM200L > ADA Split Stacks/Mesa P112s

Harley Hexxe

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #2 on: Time Format »

Hey Richard,

    Yes, they do mention using the D4 in a mixing console with the stereo setup in the way you described just now, and of course that would be great for live mixing or recording in that sense. My question was more geared toward using it in my guitar setup with the MP-1.
   I'm sure I can mix the signals back in the Classic and the MP-2 through the loops to get the full preamp effects, but the manual didn't go into any detail about how to use it with a live rig like that, so some experimentation will be in order.
   When I referred to the midrange tone I got, that was in direct reference to how it sounded when I had the S-1000 in the loop, and pressed the "Invert" button on the front panel. It sort of made me think of how my rig would sound through a telephone call.
   I have no earthly idea how ADA intended it to be used with the MP-1, in a stereo configuration. This is why I was speculating about the 2nd channel going direct to the power amp. At the time, I believe only the B200S was available with the MP-1.
   At the time when the MP-1 came out, the only effects processors that were being made by ADA was the Digitizer 4, the Pitchtraq, and the MQ-1 Programmable EQ, ( I'm not sure if the MQ-1 was using MIDI yet, I think that came later).
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #3 on: Time Format »

The MQ-1 is midi compatible, it even has the same "midiboard" as the mp-1.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #4 on: Time Format »

The MQ-1 is midi compatible, it even has the same "midiboard" as the mp-1.

    I remember years ago seeing a few auctions on Ebay for those that were described as non-MIDI. Maybe the first few didn't have it? :dunno:
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rnolan

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #5 on: Time Format »

Hey Harley, when inverted outs started appearing on stomp pedals (I bought a Korg digital chorus and a digital delay way back then)  then started using 2 amps to get the benefit (similar to your idea of using one B200s channel for the inverted signal), as I said though down side is missing one side of the tail end of the MP-1 signal chain.  As you know I'm a fan of using a small mixer (or line mixer) in a guitar rig, just makes it all easier IMHO.
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Studio Rig: MP2/MB1 > Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro > TC M-One XL > Behringer Truths (with Truth Sub) / QUAD ESL 63s
Live Rig: MP2/MB1 > Alesis Quadverb > Alesis Midiverb 4 > Yamaha AM802 > B200s/Carvin TS100/DCM200L > ADA Split Stacks/Mesa P112s

Harley Hexxe

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #6 on: Time Format »

Hey Richard,

    Yeah, I know that would be easier to use with a mixer, but I'm not putting on in my rack, (although I could do that very easily).
 I'm just trying to figure out how ADA intended for it to be used in a live rig. Maybe the D4 up front, and connected to two amps? That would work just as easily.
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rnolan

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #7 on: Time Format »

Hey Harley, it is a bit perplexing what they intended  :dunno: .  Though it was a time when many rack Fxs were going stereo eg SPX 90 mono in stereo out.  Maybe their intention was if you'd bought it to use in a PA setup ? or like you say into 2 amps (like how I ran the Korg pedals).  Did they come out when the MP-1 still had the top inst/line lv switch ? if so the 2 amp idea makes some sense ?  Unfortunately, we didn't get any of the ADA fxs in Oz. The importer (Pro Audio) just brought in MP-1, MB-1, MP-2, B200s, B500B. and G500s and split stacks, then they started making the cabs here under license (which is how I ended up with slant split stacks loaded with 90w boogie 8 ohm celestians, I wanted the cabs to be 4 ohm and the boogies where the only 8 ohm celestians I could get at the time).
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Studio Rig: MP2/MB1 > Eurorack UB2442FX-Pro > TC M-One XL > Behringer Truths (with Truth Sub) / QUAD ESL 63s
Live Rig: MP2/MB1 > Alesis Quadverb > Alesis Midiverb 4 > Yamaha AM802 > B200s/Carvin TS100/DCM200L > ADA Split Stacks/Mesa P112s

Harley Hexxe

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #8 on: Time Format »

Hey Richard,

    Actually, the Digitizers were introduced the year before the MP-1 came out and they remained the only delay ADA was making until 1988. I think they discontinued them in late '88 or early '89. They also discontinued the Pitchtraq and the MQ-1 at the same time as the Digitizer 4. That was when ADA decided they weren't going to make signal processors anymore, just amplification systems.
   Yes, I do remember there were a lot of effects that had that cabling configuration, mono in, two channel out. Lexicon PCM 70 is like that, so was the Digitech DSP128.
   At the time the MP-1 was introduced, amplifiers at that time still didn't have effects loops in them yet. That didn't start showing up in amplifiers two years later. That's another thing that I credit ADA for bringing into the market with the introduction of the MP-1.
 So I believe effects like the D4 were probably intended to go into the front end of a guitar amp just like the stomp boxes at the time, unless of course as you said, it was used in a mixing desk, which would have given you a cleaner application of the effects.
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #9 on: Time Format »

Never saw an MQ-1 without midi.The MQ-1 design was sold to rane and it became the MPE14 , although it wasen't 100% a MQ-1 most of the design was taken over and Rane added some stuff to it.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #10 on: Time Format »

Hey MJMP,
    Did you ever get one of the Rane EQ's? I wonder which sounded better?
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #11 on: Time Format »

No never, I know EL bought one and uses it.

Now from what I recall, the analog part is the same they just added some digital stuff to it.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #12 on: Time Format »

That would be interesting to check out one day.
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MarshallJMP

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #13 on: Time Format »

I must say the MQ-1 is a damn good EQ.I sold my spare to our other guitar player because he just kept nagging me about selling it to him. He also bought a Digitizer (an original 220V unit), so we almost have an identical rack. He just misses the 2FX.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Getting Delayed with A/DA
« Reply #14 on: Time Format »

Hey MJMP,

    I have a 2FX also, but I don't like using it in a chain with the other delays. Maybe it's just the unit I have, but I seem to notice a slight drop in the fidelity of the sound when I use it with other delays.
    If I use it alone with the MP-1 though, it sounds fine. The effects in that unit are definitely more present in the mix even with the level backed off to almost completely dry.
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