ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Non ADA Gear => Guitars => Topic started by: Dante on March 22, 2014, 10:13:46 AM
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Perhaps we will have a Tone Talk board in here someday, but until then, here goes.
I am setting up my rig to be running directly into the PA and have found that there is a VAST difference in sound according to guitar construction. Most of my twin humbucker guitars have EQ set up very similarly, I just adjust the gain & EQ to taste with differing pickups. But, there is a vastly different sound coming out of my RG (which also has two humbuckers)
Ibanez RG model = basswood body, 3pc Maple neck, HSH config (Dimarzio Evolution / Ibanez INFS3 / Alnico 2 Classic), Floyd Rose trem with a big brass block upgrade.
Had to crank the bass on this guitar and cut the highs a bit, just to give her some 'body' in the mix. Also had to bump the distortion a bit.
Ibanez AR model = mahogany body w/maple cap, 3pc maple neck, HH config (SD Sh-4 JB / SD Sh-2n Jazz), standard Tune-o-matic bridge w/stoptail.
Bass and highs bumped up a bit, mids cut.
Gibson Explorer = Korina body, mahogany neck, HH config (both Gibson PAFs), Kahler Trem.
Just add a bit of gain for the low output PUs, EQ is about the same as the other HH models = Boost lows, cut mids, bump highs just a bit.
Epiphone Korina V = not a full Korina body, it's a white mahogany body wrapped in Korina, but sounds very similar to my Explorer, mahogany neck, HH config (SD Sh-1 / SD Sh2n Jazz), TOM bridge w/strings routed through the body (no stoptail).
Exactly the same settings as the Ibanez AR model. (has nearly the same pickups too)
I don't know what makes the RG sound so thin, maybe it's the Evo pickup, maybe it's the basswood body, maybe it's the bolt-on neck, maybe it's a combination of all of that. :dunno: The fact that I had to turn up the gain on the RG made me wonder if I had a loose solder joint in there somewhere from when I installed the PUs, so I remelted all the connections again, with absolutely no difference in sound.
So, it's all working out fine, I have a bank of patches for each guitar, I just thought this EQ difference was worth mentioning. When asking others for their 'patch settings' keep in mind that your rig may sound VASTLY different from somebody else's.
:ada-big:
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This could become a hotly debated topic!
The guitar forums are full of these, with strong opinions in opposite directions.
I've built quite a few guitars and yes, materials and construction do make a difference. But in my opinion the pickups and electronics have a much greater effect on tone than woods and neck construction. To compound the issue, even different copies of the same model pickups are variable in tone due to winding differences. The pots and caps values/tolerances/composition have a strong effect as well.
Let the commentary begin!
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Tend to agree with GB here, I was deliberating on starting a topic/post on guitar strings, e.g. I'm a DR convert after trying them all over 40 years.. also a very subjective topic and strings are also a variable in this deliberation.
The electronics can/does make a big (and maybe the main (in an electric instrument)) difference (actually the main difference IMHO is how you play and the energy you put into each note). E.g. my Tom Anderson Pro Am has a basswood body, but also has kick ass (because it's a very early TA (circa 1987)) Ultrasonic PUs, apart from being fantastic to play, it sounds great (pretty much regardless of what I plug it through, but that's also partly my playing I guess). (sounds best through ADA MP1/2).
As GB says, let the commentary begin!
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Having build a few guitars and basses, I can confirm that construction and woods certainly make a difference.
Basswood, despite the name IMHO sounds a bit lackluster.
That guitar will most likely also have the least interesting acoustic tone.
I'm guessing the Dimarzios are not helping there either (fine for an acoustically strong guitar but not for this, to my taste)
Try swapping your AR pickups to the RG, see if that helps?
At least you'll find out if the pups or the body is the main culprit.
If the latter then there are also replacement RG bodies of different wood available http://www.area51customs.co.uk/bodies.html (http://www.area51customs.co.uk/bodies.html)
Peter
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Having build a few guitars and basses, I can confirm that construction and woods certainly make a difference.
+1 :thumb-up:
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I have to agree with GB too - the pickups and electronics do make a huge difference. Hell, I noticed a big difference changing the output jacks in some of my guitars. (go Switchcraft)
The neck PU in the RG is essentially the same as the AR (actually, a little better IMO), so I am using that as a comparison more than the bridge PUs. Still, the RG lacks depth :/
That said, I can compensate for this easily with the EQ section in the preamp and the FX device
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Seems redundant at this point in the discussion, but the construction and pickup combination are where it all begins. I can attest to the basswood RG's having a dead acoustic tone...more controlled in nature. It would work if you had trebly super high output pickups (maybe ceramic) to bring out the guitar's nuances but most of the stock ones I have come across fit your description Dante. The problem is that most of the RGs I see have very controlled, focused pickups in them which, with the focused, controlled basswood, do not give me a very dynamic playing experience.
On the pickup side of things; my Kawai F1 Jr. originally had Mighty Mite Super Distortion clones in it when I bought it in from Japan. It has a really thick low mid focus and sounded perfect for my favored stoner rock riffs...but they were just not versatile for other music or soloing. I ended up throwing in a pair of Seymour Duncan P-Rails in it and all the presence and highs that were always present acoustically with the guitar from the ash body wings just came to life.
While I have gone guitar to PA only a couple times when playing live, I have always plugged into PA with my basses at my church and the same rule applies here: The PA will expose your guitar and equipment for what it really is (all other variables constant). There is no coloring to hide behind. And the one time I went to PA with my Kawai made me jump for the pickup upgrade just based on what I didn't hear.
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Seems redundant at this point in the discussion, but the construction and pickup combination are where it all begins. I can attest to the basswood RG's having a dead acoustic tone...more controlled in nature. It would work if you had trebly super high output pickups (maybe ceramic) to bring out the guitar's nuances but most of the stock ones I have come across fit your description Dante. The problem is that most of the RGs I see have very controlled, focused pickups in them which, with the focused, controlled basswood, do not give me a very dynamic playing experience.
One of my guitarists has a JEM (also basswood body) and that guitar only came alive after putting in a L-500 XL (Bill & Becky).
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My Guild X-79 needs the L-500 XL in its bridge position now that you mention it... >:D
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I love Bill Lawrence, I guess I gotta try his pickups. Can't talk the talk unless you walk the walk.
Kawai2g4b: Thank you for eloquently capturing what I am experiencing. No dynamics, kinda dry, brittle and lifeless. I could compensate for that with a combo amp, but there is no hiding behind the PA....which does not color the tone, just amplifies it.
I like the guitar, so I'm willing to work with it a bit. I'll try more pickups
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Suprised someone hasn't addressed this yet: what gauge / type of string are you using? Nicke or steel?
+ 1 on the pickups /electronics - they are the overwhelming force concerning the guitar's tone.
Also, speakers make a huge impact on your tone, so taking the speakers out of the mix and running direct will obviously change the equation.
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I like the guitar, so I'm willing to work with it a bit. I'll try more pickups
This works :thumb-up:
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My Tom Anderson Pro Amm is a basswood body, I'm running the 2nd version of the original Ultrasonic Reference series PUs that TA used in his early (mines a 1987) guitars and it's awesome, I read recently the ultrasonics were designed by Bill Lawrence, anyway, with the right PUs, Basswood is fine (and not too heavy ;) )
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Suprised someone hasn't addressed this yet: what gauge / type of string are you using? Nicke or steel?
+ 1 on the pickups /electronics - they are the overwhelming force concerning the guitar's tone.
Also, speakers make a huge impact on your tone, so taking the speakers out of the mix and running direct will obviously change the equation.
I use Ernie Ball Regular Slinkys (10 - 42) or sometimes D'Addarios in the same guage
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D'addario 09-046 but i used 08-038 for years.
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DR High Beam 10s on most, 11s or 12s on my PBC Tele and drop tuned guitars.
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Regardless of brand, I find higher gauge give me a better more mid-rangey 'brown' tone - more noticeably on the unwound strings. I run 11-50's on my Strat's and Tele's. I got a Steinberger Spirit in yesterday and I could only get a set of double ball end .09-.42's last minute. They felt like little spiderweb strands after playing 11's for so long.
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Changing string gauges wouldn't be terrible, it's a bitch on the Floyd Rose, but a cheap swap. I always found it incredibly easy to bend strings on this guitar anyway, I could afford to go a bit heavier.
Thanks for the tip...but I literally put a new set of 10-46 gauge strings on that guitar TODAY :hair-out:
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I use DR 10- 46 on "strat" scale lengths and 10 - 52 on Gibson scale lengths, I found the bottom end a bit floppy on the shorter Gibson scale so went for the 52, also better for dropped D
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Regardless of brand, I find higher gauge give me a better more mid-rangey 'brown' tone - more noticeably on the unwound strings. I run 11-50's on my Strat's and Tele's. I got a Steinberger Spirit in yesterday and I could only get a set of double ball end .09-.42's last minute. They felt like little spiderweb strands after playing 11's for so long.
Damn you are right about that. I fell like I will rip them off the instrument when I do any vibrato. My background in double bass does not help me with light gauges either.
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Damn you are right about that. I fell like I will rip them off the instrument when I do any vibrato. My background in double bass does not help me with light gauges either.
So it looks like I literally am ripping the .09's off the Steinberger. I have had 2 sets in a row (within 3 days) where the high E hasn't broken, but the wrapping around one of the ball ends (double ball end strings) is slipping causing the string to lengthen to the point that it is useless. :???:
These were GHS double ball end strings. I just ordered a set of D'Addario double ball end 10's; hopefully they will be better quality than the GHS.
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Don't know if DR do a double ball end model, the lock the ball ends off better than most brands and IMHO are definitely better strings than GHS or D'Addario. I found D'Addario start off super bright then finally settle, but the should be better than GHS.
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Agreed on the DRs. It takes me a loooong while to kill off the treble in those strings. The Ernie Ball Cobalts are worth their hype by the way.