ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear

Miscellaneous => Gigs - Live Talk => Topic started by: Kim on February 25, 2017, 08:47:19 AM

Title: Getting your Sound
Post by: Kim on February 25, 2017, 08:47:19 AM
Now also bear in mind however you think your tone is at bedroom volume or small gig volume becomes completely different at 110 dB. This is my territory and for me if the unit or whatever I'm using doesn't cut through or make the grade at super high volume I don't need or want it. So many guys I have seen take "their sound" from their room or practice room and have to crank it and everything falls apart and then they are depressed. So to me I start at crazy volume and then back down from there ;D

Solid advice.  I do the same when determining where I want to set OD levels.  Give it ALL the gain at a Volume somewhere higher than Medium and lower than OMG :banana-trip:, and roll it back to find the sweet spot.   

Common "Metal Rookie" mistakes:
#1: Using all the available Overdrive Gain.  :dunno:
#2  Scooping all the Mids out. :facepalm:
#3  Doing this at Bedroom Volume. :poop:
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on February 26, 2017, 07:37:45 AM
Interesting topic of conversation.

I'm about to flip it around though.

How to get your tone at (quite frankly) unsafe levels of volume?

Something I still struggle with because it only takes a few minutes for my ears to start ringing playing at loud volume through proper loud guitar speakers (12").

The region of frequencies I find hardest to determine are the hi end frequencies.  Why is that so hard?  Because this is actually the region that f*cks your hearing up.  Not the bass or mids.

So here is the scenario:

You are playing at reasonable volume (not quite as loud as you need to beat the drummer but also not even close to bedroom volume), you are trying to get nice treble in your tone, with no fizz, but yet having a level of detail and clarity that keeps it from being muddy.

How do you all do this?  What are your methods?

I have a spanner in the works also.  So you may or may not wear musician earplugs which are generally supposed to have flat response.  Do you adjust your tone at your loudest volume with these in?  Or do you not?

I personally find wearing the ear plugs, I may end up putting a little more treble in than I need and therefore creating an overly bright or fizzy or harsh edged tone.  Or is this paranoia?  Does the sound just tend to sound like this without the ear plugs because it's just up so loud?

Interested in your thoughts?

(bare in mind I am not a newbie and I've played live for many years so this is not from a novice perspective).

P.S Yes I wear ear plugs, why?  Because I need to save my ears for making records and I already know I've had damage done to them from the early years (thanks to drummers cymbals) of not wearing ear plugs but since I have started wearing them, I never get ringing or any painful head exploding effects playing live now.
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Kim on February 26, 2017, 10:05:34 AM
Well, of course it wouldn't be wise to try to get your sound dialed in at an unsafe volume.  But the volume should be at or very close to a level that would make the speaker work a little, and generally this will always be waaay too loud for any "bedroom level" playing.

I learned this from a reputable source who has far more experience than I.
Three things to help find this is a flashlight, a friend, and over-the-ears hearing protection for both you and friend.
-Set your amp Bass Mid Treble straight up at wherever halfway is on your particular amp. 
-Turn Pres all down, and Master Volume all down.
-Set the OD Gain up about halfway and get that ear protection on both of you.
-Your friend plugs in and just chugs the low string on your axe.  Nothing fancy, no fast thrash triplets, just a steady chug...chug...chug...
While he's doing that, shine the flashlight through the grille cloth on your cab and observe the speaker's movement while slowly raising the Master Volume.  Once you see the speaker actually doing something, stop raising the volume.  Guitar speakers don't have nearly the amount of cone excursion of bass speakers or subwoofers, so you won't see it really moving a lot.  What you will see is that it will appear to look a bit blurry on those chugs and now the speaker(s) are doing their work. Remember, you can always turn it down a little bit from here if you feel it needs to be, but turning it up louder shouldn't ever be necessary.
Adjust the Bass control now just to the point where you can feel and hear the actual cab itself resonating on those chugs.   
The Master Volume and Bass is set, and your mate is really annoying you now with those chugs, so take your axe away from him and have him go get beer.  :beer:

Now see about bringing the rest of your amp and OD level up to speed while leaving the Master Volume set right where you left it.  Bring the OD level up as far you want, but if you want some clarity left you may want to roll that back just a bit.  Should be easy enough to set your Mid Treb and Pres EQ from there, but those high frequencies in the Treble and Pres can be troublesome, more so in the Pres. area.  Leave the Pres. until last after you're satisfied with the OD level, Mid and Treb.  You shouldn't need a lot of Pres, since all the "cut" and "punch" in the guitar is lower frequencies than the "fizz" and "sizzle" (and "air" in Clean guitars) that the Pres. control handles.  If it seems like you're getting "lost in the mix" bring the Mids up some.  Make a note of where your settings are so that after this, you can just dial those settings in and be done with only very minor tweaks if needed.

Something to also consider is the actual speaker placement.  Guitar speakers are very directional or "beamy" meaning that they project the sound straight out away from them with very little side dispersion.  Because of this, it's easy to overdo the Pres. settings depending on where you are listening from.  Save the hassle and adjust the Pres. while listening straight inline of the speaker.  This is where the mic will be placed to project the sound through the PA as well, so it makes sense to get it right "here" instead of trying to get it correct from "over there".  It will sound a less brighter from "over there" but you'll get used to that after knowing it's set correctly right where it needs to be set correctly.  The ear protection will hinder the settings, (as you do need to preserve your hearing!) so you could let someone plug in while you step way back away from the speakers while staying inline with them to make the final determination.

As always, YMMV and your tone is Your Tone.  I learned this from a reputable source who has far more experience than I.  We can have the exact same guitar, same amp, same speakers, and play the exact same songs or genre; won't mean we'll arrive with exactly the same settings.  But this will get you closer to a good live sound than by blindly Bass +12    Mid -12   Treb +12  the controls

 
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on February 26, 2017, 10:38:23 AM
But this will get you closer to a good live sound than by blindly Bass +12    Mid -12   Treb +12  the controls

Thankfully even at bedroom volumes (back when I was a bedroom guitarist I never cut out the mids, but it's a common mistake for a lot of people). 

This is good advice Kim.  Something I will try out.  So obviously thought the years I have just "wung" it trying to set up my live tone.  With your advice there is defined process in orderly steps which is good as it means if you screw up or have to start over you always just go back to step one to find the "neutral" place.  Good for venues where you plug in and suddenly your tone is all up the left because you happen to be using someone else's cabs or the walls reverberate weirdly.

So you set your tone with hearing protection on then?
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Iperfungus on February 26, 2017, 03:36:56 PM
The more mids you give, the less gain you need!  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Kim on February 26, 2017, 04:41:58 PM
So you set your tone with hearing protection on then?

I initially did but now I don't.  But since my speakers are already placed up near my ear level, I don't need that much volume.  They are also lower-wattage rated speakers than the ones usually found in 4x12 cabs and only two of them per cab anyway so they're being worked without having to push them too hard.  And I actually stand slightly off axis of the speakers anyway, so any frequency that seems piercing or fatiguing at that point already got turned down.

Which brings another point.  If your cabs are down on the floor, move your ears to the back of your knees.  lol 

Again, all too easy to dial in a bad piercing tone when you aren't down there where the sound is actually coming from. Just moving my cabs up where they are now did wonders for my sound because I'm actually hearing it so much better than when they were down on the floor.  All my settings and overall volumes needed to be reset....and for the better. :thumb-up:
In one of my past bands, the other guitarist would always crank his half-stack with some real shit distortion pedal in the front way more than what was ever needed for our band..... and then he'd stand right directly in front of it.  Well, he couldn't hear anything else but his own playing and the back of his knees were certainly deaf.  :lol:  Did I mention it sounded like ass?

If you love it loud, if you need it loud, then be loud.  I understand DJC (and many others) plays very loud, but he's also experienced enough to know how to dial his tone in that kind of environment.  Anyone else fairly new to this just needs to make sure they're aware of what's actually going on with their settings.

The more mids you give, the less gain you need!  :thumb-up:

More correctly: "The more mids you give, the less overall Volume you need."  I think that's what you really meant to say, right? So just clarifying this.  :) 
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Iperfungus on February 26, 2017, 04:56:04 PM
The more mids you give, the less gain you need!  :thumb-up:

More correctly: "The more mids you give, the less overall Volume you need."  I think that's what you really meant to say, right? So just clarifying this.  :)

Well, more or less...  :lol:
Actually, what I mean is that if you use mids in the right way you don't need:

1) more gain to attempt to cut through the mix (epic fail)
2) more volume to let people hear you through the mix (killing the drummer)

I've learned and found that you've to use not more gain than you really need and to scoop mids not too much, if you want people to hear you!  :thumb-up:
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on February 27, 2017, 01:24:32 AM
The more mids you give, the less gain you need!  :thumb-up:

Not sure I've ever noticed this.  I've always had lots of mids anyways.  Sometimes reducing them is needed, all depends really on speakers and cabs and the rest of your equipment.  I know I use a lot more mids than plenty of bands I encounter at gigs or on tour. 

I do know that more mids can be perceived as much, much louder.  i.e if you scoop them all out, you need to turn the master volume up a lot more to balance out.  If you use a lot of mids you do not need to turn the volume up as much to sound loud.

 Iperfungus how do you sort out your sound for LOUD volumes?
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Iperfungus on February 27, 2017, 01:41:27 AM
The more mids you give, the less gain you need!  :thumb-up:

Not sure I've ever noticed this.  I've always had lots of mids anyways.  Sometimes reducing them is needed, all depends really on speakers and cabs and the rest of your equipment.  I know I use a lot more mids than plenty of bands I encounter at gigs or on tour. 

I do know that more mids can be perceived as much, much louder.  i.e if you scoop them all out, you need to turn the master volume up a lot more to balance out.  If you use a lot of mids you do not need to turn the volume up as much to sound loud.

 Iperfungus how do you sort out your sound for LOUD volumes?

Well, everything is always subjective, of course.

Even if it's being long time (sadly) that I don't play at LOUD volumes, generally speaking I was tuning my sound as I described above.
I played in different bands over the years: heavy metal, extreme metal, hard rock, classic rock and also a Kiss tribute band.
When I was younger, I loved metal more and I was used to scoop mids a lot and turn gain to max: at that point, you can set the volume at any level and you will NEVER cut through any mix (you will just kill people ears and do a mess).

Then I learned to set gain just a little higher than the amount I needed to play rhythm parts and the hardest solo, set mids to RIGHT level (not too low, not too high) depending on guitar pickups and speakers.
And that's it.
I never had any problem anymore and I never felt the needing of too high volume anymore.  :thumb-up:

PS. choosing a good booster for solos is a good trick as well!  :lol:
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on February 27, 2017, 02:52:06 AM
Well this is kind of going off the question a bit although appreciate your response.

As mentioned at the beginning I'm no novice so knowledge of gear boosters you name it, I'm good with all that thanks  :thumb-up:  Indeed I use a volume boost for solos even though my three piece band with only me on guitar some say I do not need one.  But to hell with them Im boost a few db anyways.

I just want to know how people go about setting their tones up for Live or Loud use.

As this is completely different from the aforementioned "Bedroom volume" levels that so many younger less experienced players are using regularly and then struggle with the change to BIG VOLUME!

So my own method is pretty random and not very defined so this is why I would like to hear others and how they go about it.  Hearing protection?  No hearing protection?  How do the know when there is enough treble?  etc.

Treble is the area I feel I adjust the most.  It harsh?  Is it Bright?  Is it fizzy?  And it's hard to tell at high volume as it's always going to be harsh when you are playing a a volume to beat your drummer.  So this is what makes it hard to tell for me.  I will try Kim's method for sure, I like the logic behind it.  But I'm curious to see how others go about doing this as more knowledge behind "loud" sound tone adjustment the better.
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Harley Hexxe on February 27, 2017, 06:25:56 AM
Okay, I'll chime in with my .02 cents on this topic,

    In my experience, every group of musicians you play with is different, so you volume levels, tones, overdrives will be different. The variables are dependent on how loud the others are playing, and how they sound together with you jumping in their mix.
   I have a lot of different tones programmed into my preamps for this very reason. Some tones that work with one group of musicians won't work at all with others. So when I'm editing guitar tones I try to do it at stage volumes and I dial in something that seems useful to me in a certain style of music. Something that helps is if I have a CD or tape going through the mixing desk and blasting out at volume from my monitors. That usually gets me very close to where I need to be with whoever I'll be jamming with. Once in a while I may have to do a little bit of tweaking to compensate for the difference between what I was listening to on the CD, vs. the tones of the actual musicians I'm playing with, but more often than not, I'm already there.
    I find that it is harder to cut through the mix if I have too much gain in the overdrives, so I back off on that a bit without cutting too much out. One of the trickiest things I've discovered many years ago was how my ears perceived the amount of distortion, vs how the microphones pick it up. At one recording session in 1998, I remember wanting to get a slightly overdriven tone on my guitar, just to fatten up the sound and give it a bit more sustain. I backed off the gain in OD1 and OD2 in my Classic, and thought I had it just right, until I heard the playback. It came through with a LOT more saturation than I was hearing live. Not at all the sound I was hearing standing in front of the speakers of my amp. I had to back it off a lot more to get the sound I was looking for on the recording. Since then, I've gone back and listened more carefully to a lot of the artists whom I drew the inspiration for my presets, only to discover, they weren't playing with as much distortion as I though they were at first.
    So for me it became more about preserving a great guitar tone in a live situation, at any volume. I'll dial in the tone I want, with the EQ a bit more heavy on the low end, and boosted low mids, then I'll add the treble  in to get the top end sizzle, and last I'll bring in the high mids, or presence, to just fill in the empty frequencies, but no more. The drive on my OD1 and OD2 I'll add a little at a time just to fatten it up a bit and add some sustain. The rest is in your fingers and what's in your head.

   Harley 8)
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Kim on February 27, 2017, 05:34:12 PM
One of the trickiest things I've discovered many years ago was how my ears perceived the amount of distortion, vs how the microphones pick it up. At one recording session in 1998, I remember wanting to get a slightly overdriven tone on my guitar, just to fatten up the sound and give it a bit more sustain. I backed off the gain in OD1 and OD2 in my Classic, and thought I had it just right, until I heard the playback. It came through with a LOT more saturation than I was hearing live. Not at all the sound I was hearing standing in front of the speakers of my amp. I had to back it off a lot more to get the sound I was looking for on the recording. Since then, I've gone back and listened more carefully to a lot of the artists whom I drew the inspiration for my presets, only to discover, they weren't playing with as much distortion as I though they were at first.

Most players would probably never even know this unless having that experience that for themselves.  And that's what we're trying to do here....get some of this experienced info in the hands of the inexperienced.  :thumb-up:


Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Harley Hexxe on February 28, 2017, 04:55:29 AM
Those are my thoughts too Kim, and that's why I threw it out there. If it helps someone, then I've managed to pass along something I've learned, and once again, just proves what a great Forum this is!

   Besides, I find it very interesting to see how other people dial in their tones. If I try a different way of doing that from the way I've been used to doing it, will I arrive at the same kind of tone I have using my method, or will it be better or worse? It's an interesting experiment either way it ends up.

   Harley 8)
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rnolan on February 28, 2017, 05:09:26 AM
In more recent times I've backed off to MP2 voice 5 warm vintage (only 1 OD) for the majority of my playing (using midi master vol for lead boost), and my old (80's/90's) rhythm patch is now my over the top lead (IIRC voice 9).  And for the first time in my playing I've been rolling back vol pots to clean it up more.  Eg I find with my JPLP it sounds just right with the vol on 2.5 - 3 with the warm vintage patch.  But I'm also playing allot differently these days. (well I'm mostly playing bass at the moment LoL).

The other difference maybe worth mentioning is when there is one or 2 guitars.  If there is another guitar to get on top off, you need (I've found anyway) a bigger vol boost for leads.  Keyboards also tend to fill the mid range layer and then you need to cut through a bit more (so eq becomes more an issue). When it's just guitar, bass, drums and vox, you have allot more dynamic latitude.  I used to program patches with the appropriate master vol jumps/boost (2 guitars and keyboards), now I use the MP2 midi master (controlled with CC expression pedal through MXC) which lets me quickly adapt as required. And instead of using lots of patches over multiple banks (for different songs), I tend to use just 3, a good clean, the warm vintage for most things (and roll vol pots) and my old rhythm patch for more over the top leads.  But all my live sounds I've tweaked with a drummer and bass player in the room  :thumb-up: , then they work live but also sound good when you turn them down to record at home (or play in the lounge room..).

As for process to getting my tones, with MP1 I started with a copy of patch 1 (IIRC) and tweaked from there (but at stage vols with the band (as Harley says, who and what instruments you are playing with make a big difference)) Back in my MP1 days I chased up different sounds to suit the repertoire we were playing (which had quite a few originals, so I mostly made my own sounds  >:D ) and many of the patches were about Fx settings/patches more than MP1 tones.  I remember thinking, this this (MP1) is so versatile/tweakable, when do you say, stop, that's it... Anyway I got there over time to the point where most of the tweaks were subtle master vol changes.

I've actually started to experiment a bit more with MP2 patches, basically trying some of the one others here have posted (albeit with different guitars/PUs), and found a few that work for me.  Initially when I got my MP2, (and I was gigging (allot) then so not much time..), I just went with patch 1 (again), and tweaked it to suit (but again at volume).
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: DannyjoeCarter on February 28, 2017, 10:04:28 PM
This is cool! I didn't realize my comment would get so much attention  ;D

 To me there is nothing better than going to a concert because of the volume and sound pressure. I actually get a slight buzz or a little high from LOUD music and even more so if it's my own music and band.
 I will share this and I found this to be true with many players; I remember back in 1986 when I bought my first Marshall JCM 800 with two 4X12 cabinets and thought I was in heaven...............until I cranked it up at a park  :-[. No - the police didn't come oddly enough but I couldn't play because I literally couldn't control the guitar or handle the response and sounded like I had been playing only a few months  :facepalm:

 Many years later when I got into racks, yes the MP-1 and Mesa power amps, I had the same experience with playing at high volume. So I rented a studio and had it all to myself for 4 hours a day - and got a huge fat tone at around 110dB and started practicing daily at that volume.
I will promise you - this takes practice learning to control the guitar and getting your technique together at high volumes. I learned that from Ted Nugent, haven't met him yet but heard interviews from the 70's where he discussed that and learning to control feedback and allowing the magic to happen in your hands.

 This may not be for everyone but I would challenge some of you to test what I'm saying. Grab two or four 4X12 cabinets , ( I have four 4X12's now  ;D ) and a 100 watt or more power amp and crank it up and go into your routine!  :headbanger:  Playing at 110dB at first will SCARE THE HELL out of you!!! :poop:
Then if you're a freak like me you'll start to catch a buzz from it and really get into it!

 The guitar responds differently at high volumes and things get almost like my buddy Jason says, "Dancing Lightning" because especially with high gain, your touch becomes very light and you can feel every vibration of the guitar. This is what happens for me anyway. Many of my close guitar friends CAN NOT play my rigs and the guitar squeals and sounds awful and they hand it back to me shaking their heads.  :dunno: So it takes practice - practicing and playing at high volumes.
 And yes - hearing loss, a little but I have learned something extremely cool! Plus I love the experience of playing a stadium level even though I have not gotten to play a stadium, one day hopefully, but it is a pretty killer thing to know how to handle the volume and dynamics at those volumes.

 So guys I just love sharing my experiences on here and I know everyone gets something different out of playing the guitar and this all may offend some because of my advocating insane volume and hearing loss. But this is just what I love - we had band rehearsal today and things were falling off the walls in my shop but Man it was awesome!!! My drummer David and bass player Bob and I were in our own Hog Heaven playing our own private concert and we could feel it all in our chests and we grinning from ear to ear.  :lol:
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Soloist on March 01, 2017, 12:28:24 AM
I agree with you DJC, there is NOTHING like playing at high volume. The guitar reacts differently, you play with a softer touch and hear every nuance. Light pick scrapes, fret hand slides, pinch harmonics hammer ons, pull offs and heavy palm muting all sound killer at that level. Sometimes it just seems "effortless"  but sounds so percise and flawless.
Arena level is where it's at for me  :headbanger:
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rnolan on March 01, 2017, 02:47:13 AM
Ahh kindred (going deaf  :facepalm: ) spirits LoL.  I played as loud as I could from the get go, my dad (mining engineer back then) brought home a SPL meter one day (he was worried about my hearing (and rightly so)), 1 foot off one of my speakers was 124db, and I used to put my right ear on the grill to hear it even louder. Having to learn to control such dynamics leaves one in good stead (IMHO), you also have to learn lots of "shut the guitar up" techniques which just become 2nd nature.  At the end of a song, this is were the midi CC master vol on the MP2 is your friend. But you do have to be in balance (to some extent  >:D ) with the rest of the band, there's a live volume (and for me it reasonably loud) that you shouldn't bother playing under. Just takes all the energy away  :facepalm: .
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: DannyjoeCarter on March 01, 2017, 07:12:02 PM
I knew there would be a few of you on here that liked it crazy loud  :lol:
And Richard - you are the king! 124db is Hell Yeah wake the dead volume for sure  :banana:

 
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rnolan on March 02, 2017, 04:09:32 AM
What was that DjC, I can't quite hear you... hey it was lots of fun  >:D , but has it's down side  :facepalm: .
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on March 02, 2017, 05:39:50 AM
Jeez you guy's experience is totally different from mine.

Most gigs the sound onstage is terrible.  This something I can't enjoy.  iT was something I have learnt to deal with over the years.  1-10 gigs I must be actually able to enjoy the sound I have onstage.

I agree with you DJC, there is NOTHING like playing at high volume. The guitar reacts differently, you play with a softer touch and hear every nuance. Light pick scrapes, fret hand slides, pinch harmonics hammer ons, pull offs and heavy palm muting all sound killer at that level. Sometimes it just seems "effortless"  but sounds so percise and flawless.
Arena level is where it's at for me  :headbanger:

Total opposite from my experience, you can't hear a thing.

My touch goes super heavy when I play loud with the band.  And it's generally because I cannot hear myself properly.  I noticed the other day one of my guitars I was playing in my home studio and recording with plays like a dream in that situation, where as when I took it to the practice room to play, it was awful.  Why?

Because my action was low and in the studio that is fine as I'm able to play light.  However playing it at loud volume I just was not able to play light at all and therefore had horrible tone with the same axe as I was getting too much buzz.  And then I noticed a guitar I took on tour with me was set up with a much higher action.  And now I realize why this is!!  Because clearly live I'm so much more heavy handed because it's so difficult to hear myself at gigs.

Totally different experience then from you guys  :dunno:
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Dante on March 02, 2017, 10:52:27 PM
Forgive me, I have been busy lately, but I wanna chime in here. My hearing suffered a great amount of hi freq damage from working on an airplane for 6 years, flying all over the world as a kid in the U.S. Air Force. I cannot withstand a cymbal crash or loud rim shot, it kills me. I am very careful not to subject myself to these situations.

Most times, at home, I crank my amp in the bedroom and play along with the music in the adjoining TV room. (I live alone, so I can do this) I have the pedals just outside the bedroom door, and I'm far away enough that I can play the stereo pretty loud (not gig levels).

To get a REAL idea of gig sound, I mic my cab & play with headphones. The rig is at gig volume, again, I live alone. I play gigs with in-ear-monitors anyway, so this is a very accurate representation of my 'live' sound. When playing through headphones, I can easily compare my tone with the overall mix of the recording I'm practicing with. The dogs hate it, but it gets me much closer to real-life tones. We use a Presonus mixer that has a free iApp to control our individual mixes, so I have my guitar and my vocals cranked, the other vocal mics mixed, and the keys turned down more to hear myself. It's a great tool.

Our key player (who owns the Presonus mixer) saves all our personal settings. Each time we play at the Opera House, our mix is already done. Each time we play at the sports bar, the mixer is dialed in for that cavernous space. It works great, and you control your own volume in your ears. Trust me, my ears still ring, they have forever, but it's much nicer than standing next to a crash cymbal that's being treated like a punching bag.
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rnolan on March 02, 2017, 11:06:30 PM
Hey RG, it's hard to get the balance right on stage, and like you I play harder (than I otherwise would) when I can't hear myself properly. While I still play quite loud, I also need to be in balance with the rest of the band, I don't like being too loud and not hear the other instruments. I also try to get my cab(s) up so they open up on my ears and not my knees, thus I play softer and I don't get hassled to turn down (story of my life  :facepalm: ).  At rehearsals (and some small gigs) it's not too bad as we control where things go, and I put quite a bit of energy into everyone having a good sound where they are standing.  On stage, you get what you get (depending on the gig/stage/PA etc). Probably the best sound at a gig I had was a B&S in Yass on the back of 2 semi's (so there was decent stage depth). I was using a Yamaha quad box (wired stereo and stereo micked) as far back as I could get it and up on a road case.  I had 2 banana wedges (2 x 15" + horn) in stereo to myself, side fill (I was on stage right so close to the side fill) and the monitor engineer was a mate of mine, we spent 40 mins tweaking the foldback just the way I liked it  :whoohoo!: , then had a great sweet spot.  Other times (particularly on really wide stages), I'd get snare (and vox) in my monitor (if I got one at all LoL) and then you do the best you can....
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Orkun on March 02, 2017, 11:36:14 PM
I generally use this;
Gain: 7
Bass: 9 or 12
Middle: 4 or 6
Treble: 1 or 2

Also sometimes I add a little chorus.
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: DannyjoeCarter on March 02, 2017, 11:38:26 PM
What was that DjC, I can't quite hear you... hey it was lots of fun  >:D , but has it's down side  :facepalm: .

  :lol: Yeah I feel and hear what playing at this level has done - but it's so much fun  ;D
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on March 03, 2017, 12:23:12 AM
I cannot withstand a cymbal crash or loud rim shot, it kills me. I am very careful not to subject myself to these situations.


same for me

Trust me, my ears still ring, they have forever, but it's much nicer than standing next to a crash cymbal that's being treated like a punching bag.

Thankfully not the case for me!  Which is why I wear the musician earplugs.  However this is partly what has made me question the Hi end of my guitar at loud volumes.  With the ear plugs I can adjust the end, but then if I take them out it sounds like I've dialed in tooooooo much.  This is why I was asking about a safer way to try adjust your tone, then crank up the volume with the tone still set to the way you want it.

Perhaps when I adjust with the plug in it is accurate and it's just my ears cannot take the hi end when I take them out so I feel I need to turn it right back down again.

I know my ears have suffered damage but thankfully not as much as a lot of guys.  My ears are just sensitive which is a dam sight better than ringing constantly which would actually drive me mad!

BTW ginkgo biloba helps with tinnitus.  I take it regularly and when I had a bit of tinnitus it definitely helped.  I just take it now for blood as I have raynauds disease which affects circulation in my hands and ginkgo biloba can help with that also.   :thumb-up:

Hey Richard,

I lso get my cabs up as high as I can, if possible at gigs.  Some sound men understand and some do not and think I'm being awkward.  At our rehearsal room my cabs are up high of the floor also.  However I have major issues when I turn reverb on now days in the room as I just get insane feedback.  Not sure if this is just on one guitar or not.  It's a new issue and a pain in the ass!!!
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on March 04, 2017, 11:16:49 AM
Did something interesting today,

came into rehearsal, dialled up a little bit of loud volume.  Turned the gain way down and the treble to zero on the pre and lo end on the pre down the 0 which is in the middle for my rockmaster BTW.

Dialled in from scratch.  Basically what I ended up with was I reduced the mids on the pre to about minus 1 but I had pulled the mid shift on it which offered up a completely different throatier sound.  Then I put back the level of gain I wanted (ended up at the same place as I always have it), then dialled in the lo knob then the treble.

I got something clear and less muddier than before.  Then on my guitar amp I added a touch of thump with the resonance knob and then a bit of presence using the presence knob and definitely improved the sound.

And the even bigger thing!  I did that without ear plugs.  So when I got the ear plugs in guess what???  The tone and sound was pretty much the same as without the plugs!!  So then I cranked the volume to proper levels and I got a little more of the speakers thrown in.  All in all a lot better.  So actually dialling out some mids on my preamp worked a lot better for my tone, it kinda cleared it up and made it less muddy. 

My rockmaster has a -15 (centre 0) 15+ scale so where I have the knob now is about minus 1 but with the body pull shift engaged.  Sounds a lot better.  It's may be lacking a little 800hz but I could dial that in using my on-board EQ on the Boss GT5.

Also it appears that Peavey Rockmaster still had the original tubes in it.  I replaced them with 4 JJ'S today also.  May roll some tubes in it in the future as I have a nice cocktail going on with my studio rockmaster.
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: MarshallJMP on March 04, 2017, 02:44:48 PM
When you get older it's normal that the freq range of our ears goes down.
When you're 50 (like me) you should still be able to hear 12kHz (I can still hear 13kHz).
40 ==> 15kHz
30 ==> 16kHz
24 ==> 17kHz
20 ==> 19kHz

So this means that your hearing starts to decline when you pass 18.
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on March 05, 2017, 11:38:18 AM
yes but that degradation speeds up if you subject it to things like cymbal crashes all the time.

It's not normal for your hearing to get trashed by loud music all the time.  Natural degradation is a whole other ball game, and it's different for everybody.
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: Soloist on March 05, 2017, 08:57:10 PM
Hey RG, glad you found a better tone. From my experience mid's make the tone, scooped mids 80's metal, boosted mids 80's glam and then everything in between. For setting up my mids on preamp presets I use this piece of advice given to me by George Lynch (yes I actually met him back in 91).  George uses this trick in the studio as well as live, boost your mids with an eq before your distortion then depending on what tone you want add or subtract some at the preamp. Finally to fine tune it add or subtract a ltitle more post amp either with fx eq or at the mixer.
I leave the pre distortion eq on all the time even for cleans. My modded boss GE7 looks like an upside down smiley face with 100 and 6.4k flat at zero. 200 and 3.2k at +2. 400 and 1.6 at +5. 800 at +8. On the MP1 my mids are between -2 to -8.
It seems like alot of excess but according to George when you boost the mids prior to the distortion it hits the amp as a harder signal causing the amp to react differently, then as you dial some out it doesn't sound flat and dull like it does if you scoop the mids only at the amp. If you get a chance try it and see what you think. You may not like it, or you may love it :headbanger: I love that 80's Hard Rock and metal tone so for me it works!
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rnolan on March 06, 2017, 01:09:46 AM
The hearing loss thing is all related to the amount of exposure (volume and time) at various frequencies.  There's lots of graphs/research etc on it, my dad used to show me them all the time (industrial deafness), eg at 2.5khz @ 120db causes permanent damage after 5 mins exposure (or is it 3.5mins  :dunno: ).  Then you have to leave time for your ears to recover before repeated exposure etc... Also the longer the exposure the longer the recovery time, you ears come back, but if there's been damage, they don't come back fully...
Title: Re: Getting your Sound
Post by: rabidgerry on March 06, 2017, 01:24:18 AM
Well that's some useful advice.  It's also something that I have done before.  However I've never had it as a permanent fixture.  I always found it similar to a wha pedal set in a stuck position.  Something I used to do back in my early days using my old Zoom 2100.

Now the rockmaster is famous for being a mid scooping machine but as I mentioned in the thread, it's something I do not do.  Now I've mentioned that as of saturday I dropped my mids on the preamp from about +2 to about -1 and engaged the mid body shift but in no way would I say I've went for a scooped mid sound.  I'll record some next week and see what y'all think.

I'm not really sure what thge rockmasters push pull mid shift does, but to my ears it seemed to provide a better low end, more throastey, and to clear it up a little I just had to dial it below the centre 0.  Now having been using the rockmaster for a couple of years I've never had the mid knob more than +3 or less than -3.  I've seen some guys have wayyyy less on the mid knob than me.  I imagined that would sound truly scooped and awful.

The problem for me generally is I do require a more thrashy esque tone for some numbers.  But of late I have not utilized one set up specifically for this sound.  I try to find one in the middle.  Ideally I'd like to have one though and also then my more mid based tone, and also have so that our bassist could change sound to match what ever setting I have.  I believe this would work really well, but I just have not taken the time to set it up.  During gigs I would also say to the sound man so as he could accommodate us.  I used to have something that attempted this but I never felt like I really pulled it off.  I must try and work this out again.  Sometimes a little too much mids will not work with the faster more thrash metal type songs.