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Author Topic: Compact harmonizer?  (Read 8356 times)

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rabidgerry

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #15 on: Time Format »

Boss HR-2

It's a great pedal.  I get on well with Boss Harmonizers.  Some people don't and have issues with their tracking.  I never have though.

I got an Digitech ISP33 recently.  Not compact though, but sounds f**king amazing to me!  So glad I got it!
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van Sinn

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #16 on: Time Format »

I haven't tried any of the Digitech pedals, but from various postings on the net it seems those tracks very good.
My two TSR-24 19"ers tracks so fast I can't detect any latency, also when used with my 8-stringer. Haven't tried with my bass, though..
No, as said already, I'm keeping my TSR's!
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #17 on: Time Format »

I think Gerry means the IPS 33. I had one of those when they first came out, back in '88. They track pretty well, but that is a single space rack mount unit. IPS stood for; "Intelligent Pitch Shifter." It had a permanent database of major, minor, diminished 7th, augmented 4th, and 9th scales programmed into it's memory, but I found it limiting. As the name implies, it is a pitch shifter, not a harmonizer. Trying to program harmony lines was kind of tedious, so I sold it after a few months, and bought the Eventide H-3000.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #18 on: Time Format »

hmmmmmm interesting.  Well I don't know what your definition of harmonizer is then  :???: , because the IPS has 59 preset scales which is a lot and the capability of creating user defined scales.  That's pretty comprehensive in my opinion.  Anything I have ever used before called a harmonizer has this or else at least some of those features, pitch shift on the other hand merely mirrors the input not but at a different pitch.

So if the IPS is not a harmonizer then neither is the Boss PS6 or HR-6 as their somewhat even more basic compared to the IPS.

I only mentioned my IPS as its the same in the same ball park, how ever I did say it was not compact (in reference to the fact it's 1U).

IPS has the same chip in it that the original Digitech whammy had.  Some say it was the best one.  I can't say that myself as I never tried the whammy.  But perhaps the Whammy pedal is something to look at also for a compact solution?
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #19 on: Time Format »

Hi Gerry,

     Yes, there are preset scales in the IPS 33, and there is the capability to put in user defined scales, but I found that process tedious, so I wasn't a big fan of that. The difference between a pitch shifter and a harmonizer is that a pitch shifter keeps a preset interval between the input tone and the output tone(s). A harmonizer can do this also, but it can also provide harmony scales, or individually selectable harmony notes for specified input notes, if desired.
    At the time, I was working with a Jazz band that called for some specific harmonies in certain parts of the songs we were doing, and the IPS 33 interface is not as user friendly as the Eventide.
    I have a Whammy pedal, but I don't use it very much at all. It's a very touchy effect. It gives you the pitch bend notes alright, but when you return the pedal to it's "0" position, you still have a slight pitch shift effect active, where there shouldn't be anything but your input tones.
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rabidgerry

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #20 on: Time Format »

Sure I get you didn't like the programming aspect of the IPS, but

The difference between a pitch shifter and a harmonizer is that a pitch shifter keeps a preset interval between the input tone and the output tone(s). A harmonizer can do this also, but it can also provide harmony scales, or individually selectable harmony notes for specified input notes, if desired.

Yes that's what I mentioned about Pitch shifting in my last post.  In regards to the IPS, well this provides a Harmony scales to what is being played.  You can select from 59 of them or else transpose your own.

Sure the Eventide may be better/ easier to use / more suited to your taste

but to the best of my understanding the IPS33 IPS33B and DHP33 are Harmonizers.

As for the Whammy, which one do you have?  There are many models, 5-6 I think.  Some say the latest is the best, some say the original was the best.  I have no idea myself never used one and it seems limited.  I went for the IPS because it was rack, and not as limited.  I think the new whammy has extra capabilty, but I would to think if the "always on" issue was a design flaw, that it would be ironed out by this stage.  Either that or your whammy pedal has a fault, always on is not acceptable unless you choose it to be on.  I couldn't live with that myself.

I found this also, Harmony man.  Looks good, but I'd rather it in a rack  :thumb-up:

http://digitech.com/en/products/harmonyman
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"whadda ya want? we want Heavy Metal"

Guitars:1986 Westone Dimension IV, 1989 Korean Squier Fat Strat Silver Series, 1998 Korean Squier Fat Strat, MIM Fender Fat Strat - FR, Squier Stagemaster Deluxe - Thru Neck x 2, Squier Stagemaster 22 Fret - 1st Gen, 1999 Squier Showmaster - Anniversary Edition, Squier Showmaster, Tokai FV40 Flying V

Effects:  Ada Mp1, Peavey Rockmaster, Boss GT5 * Amps:   Rocktron Velocity 300 - Harley Benton GPA400
Cabs: 4 x Bugera 2 x 12"

van Sinn

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #21 on: Time Format »

Sorry I misread the ISP vs the Digitech thingies ;)

Couple of comments on my views on harmonizers vs pitch changers..
I've uses harmonizing mostly to enrichen the sound, mostly in a subtle way, or for transforming it to a proverbial 80's synth (which I actually got tired of).

I gave up using pitch transposing, because I'd have to make sure this or that way, related to which key and scale series, had been programmed into a preset useful for that specific song - which I could never remember when actually being about to use it.

I might want to have this again, and as such, think I'd prefer a pedal on the floor, setup to visually guide me as to which button to actually hit.
As such, this would be non-programmable, so I would never have to remember with which presets it's programmed.
Of course, I could do the programming and add it to CC buttons on the floor controller, but this is cumbersome with the TSR-24, as I'd still have to remember adding this programming to every preset, whether needed or not.

You might say pitch pedals with buttons for several pitches doesn't exist, but I'd simply add my own simple selection logic with corresponding buttons to do what the rotary selector does anyways ;)

Another topic is how many different pitches to have available..
I had a chat with a dude from Florida who simply used an A-minor pitch setting, claiming it worked just fine for his short duration usages.
My intended pitch change usage is sortof the same: Only needed fairly short-term, making it sound like two during a short riff.
However, I would indeed need at least a few different ones, just no idea about which to go for. Not a terribly pressing issue at present time, so..
I think something like a minor 3rd, a 5th, a 6th or something, plus of course a octave above, would mostly cover it, but I'm likely in error on this :dunno:

Anyways.. this pitching shizzle is a Bit the same as now wanting a manual wah pedal - because likewise, I always forget programming the MP-2 wah (or I'm using it for something else).
« Last Edit: Time Format by van Sinn »
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #22 on: Time Format »

I believe the one I have is the Whammy II, the red one. I haven't had that out in a long time, so I could be wrong.

Yes, I did explore the harmony scales the IPS had in it's memory, and I recall having to play the input scales exactly correct or it would not give a correct harmony pitch if you played one wrong note.
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rnolan

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #23 on: Time Format »

Hey RG good score, the IPS33 is a great unit, I only just took mine out of the live rack recently, 1. because I'm not using it much lately, 2. to have in the studio rack.
When pitch shifters first came out, they were very expensive, eventides were the rave but typically only found in studios back then (unless you had lots of $s,,).  The ISP33 was the first rack mount "really decent" unit that was still expensive, but allot less than eventides.  I paid around $500 for mine which was dealer cost price back in the 80's. As Harley says the interface is a little cumbersome (but in its day it was actually much better than most gadgets around, I found it at least quite intuitive).  It has a "distortion loop" to improve tracking so guitar goes into the input, loop send to preamp in, preamp out to loop in.  So the raw guitar signal is used to "better" match the pitch (less overtones than distorted signal) and then the pitch shifts applied to distorted preamp signal.  I used it like this for a long while (but means you have to plug your guitar into the input which is at the back (not quite as big a deal if you have a tuner in between...). I then changed to feeding it the distorted tone and quite frankly, it tracks just fine.  I ran it off Aux send 3 on the desk and returned down 2 channels and mixed in.  So it gives you 2 pitch shifts (adjustable up or down) and you tell it what key you are in.  I set up a few different banks for different keys (eg E, B, A etc) with bypasses included.
Main limitation is it only goes to (recognises) midi numbers up to 90 (IIRC).  But that's handy if you don't want it to change.  These days I tend to set it to an octave program (1 up, 1 down), then change to a patch >=100 (so it doesn't change), and use a on/off pedal to bypass it.  So I can just turn it on or off whenever.
At one point, I programmed all the harmony lines for DP Highway Star solo, was about 6 or 7 patches IIRC  :dunno: .  Took me a while  :facepalm: .  Unfortunately, I couldn't change the patches fast enough via midi foot pedal (foot being the problem LoL).  But if you wanted to (and I thought about it at the time) you could do the MIDI prog changes as part of a recording, so you just play, the MIDI track changes the patches..
Anyway enjoy, they are a good unit IMHO.

Hey Harley, I never got around to fiddling with the harmony scales, it's something I thought about recently though now I have it in the studio rack.  From a live perspective, I found octave and minor 3rd fairly usable. Hear attached, 2nd solo
« Last Edit: Time Format by rnolan »
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #24 on: Time Format »

Hey Richard,

    Yes, I remember using that one in the Digitech, I use it in the Eventide also. It worked sometimes in the Digitech when the drummer didn't go off on too much improvisation. That's what would blow it. He would improvise during solos I was playing and extend the solo, so I would go modal for a minute to fill in the extra space and the Digitech would go all wonky if I didn't bypass it.
With the Eventide I could step to 4ths and 6ths, or go + and - 700 Cents, then get back to where I was. Program changes are faster in the Eventide.
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rnolan

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #25 on: Time Format »

Hey Harley, I haven't used an Eventide but I'm sure they are a better unit.  The IPS33 is very old but still quite usable and a good score if not too expensive and your requirements not too elaborate.  What it does, it does well, in its day it was amazing.
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Harley Hexxe

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #26 on: Time Format »

Hey Richard,

    I agree, they are pretty good for what they did back then, and they were introduced around the same time as the H-3000, and meant to be a competitor to it. I bought mine at the Namm show for around $800 USD, which was a little more than half what the Eventide cost back then. At the time, I already had the Digitech DSP 128, and paired the IPS 33 with it, which worked pretty well, (the MIDI program change time not withstanding). IIRC, there was also one other issue I was having with those units too and that was the bandwith they operated on, and they didn't go to 20,000 Khz like the high-end studio processors did. That wouldn't really matter if I were running my effects through a mixing desk, but I was running everything through my guitar rack, and I already had that issue with the ADA S-1000's and Digitizer 4's I was using, and I wouldn't replace them. So I upgraded the Harmonizer and DSP/Reverb effects to Eventide and Lexicon to get back some of what had been lost.
    I suppose I could have replaced the ADA Delays and Chorus effects with the TC Electronic 2290 and 1210, but that just cost too much back in the day. Even the Lexicon PCM 42 had a hefty price tag, and they were similar to the S-1000 in the respect that they only gave you one effect at a time. They had an extended delay range, and a early loop function that could be accessed with a footswitch, but they were basically the same as what I already had.
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rnolan

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #27 on: Time Format »

We're showing our age Harley LoL.  Affording anything back then was a struggle.  I did the guitar repairs for the music shop that was bringing in lots of cool gear (ADA, Anderson guitars, Boogie amps etc) for a while.  I didn't often get to take any of my pay home  :facepalm: .
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van Sinn

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #28 on: Time Format »

We're showing our age Harley LoL.

You obviously haven't got a clue as to age..
Sign up to a social forum, and immediately learn the truth about real harmonizing:
"Age is just a number, and distance can be covered" (just pay my tickets)

You've walked the distance; now go realize this thing about age. I turned 59 couple o'weeks ago - still harmonizing.. :lol:
« Last Edit: Time Format by van Sinn »
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rnolan

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Re: Compact harmonizer?
« Reply #29 on: Time Format »

Cool, I'm not the oldest one here anymore  :whoohoo!: .  As you say it's just a number, happy birthday BTW  :wave:
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