ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
Non ADA Gear => Effects => Topic started by: vansinn on December 10, 2016, 11:36:00 AM
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I'm thinking of maybe a POG, not the big semi-programmable one, but more like the small one. I think Mastodon often use it.
So, not some huge programmable thingy for doing pitch shift, but merely to enrich the tonal spectrum.
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The boss ps-6 is a nice pedal, I have one in my pedal board.
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Hey Sinn,
The POG is a type of harmonizer, but it produces more lo-fi synth/organ type of effects with the guitar. Is that what you are looking for, or is it more of a pitch shift kind of effect?
Harley 8)
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It's more the harmonizer type of effect I'm looking for. I think the POG might be the right thang for me, judging from Mastodon's Crack the Skye album.
I have it in spades in my TSR-24S, where I use multiple 12-cent harmonizers to build a very rich tone, but I'm thinking of doing away with all that programming to get back to more of a.. mmnn.. guitar sound, so..
Anyways, will check out the PS-6 thingy as well.
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It's more the harmonizer type of effect I'm looking for. I think the POG might be the right thang for me, judging from Mastodon's Crack the Skye album.
I have it in spades in my TSR-24S, where I use multiple 12-cent harmonizers to build a very rich tone, but I'm thinking of doing away with all that programming to get back to more of a.. mmnn.. guitar sound, so..
Anyways, will check out the PS-6 thingy as well.
Yes, I've done that too with my two Pitchtraqs, (set one +12 cents, the other -12 cents for a lush Chorus effect).
When it comes to pitch shifting/harmonizer effects, I'm more of a purist myself, meaning I would rather keep the original guitar tone with it's pitch change, rather than have it sound like some other kind of instrument simulation. IMHO, nothing else can come close to Eventide for Pitch Change, so I would recommend the Pitch Factor, which will do that plus a lot more if you want it to.
Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2-0dyu2c8M
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Yeah, I know of the various Eventide pedals, very neat stuff. Likewise know about the Pitchtraq.
I agree about keeping the real guitar tone, which is why I was thinking of the POG, which, IMHO, might be the best way of having some additional harmonics added but still ending up with a natural tone.
Anyways.. having looked into this a Bit more, I've decided to keep my Digitech TST-24S.
It'll sell for next to nothing, and shopping pedals will cost a whole lot more, likely without buying me a better solution - the TSR was sooo wanted off the market by the Harmons, because it was too close to an Eventide 7000.
I'll just stick with the programming, and have it all available - should I need it ;)
Same thing for the analog reverb, which I've now also researched.
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Harman owns Lexicon now, as well as DOD, Digitech, and dbx.
That's why your Vortex is only 10 cm deep, just like my Jam Man. Those are the first Harman/Lexicon releases. I prefer my Lexicon gear pre-Harman era.
If anything, Harman wanted to get the Eventide H7000 off the market, but Eventide is a hard one to beat when it comes to harmonizers.
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- why do you think I call them the Hormones..
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:???:
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I saw they also have JBL and AKG.
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Really? I hadn't heard about that aquisition.
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Yeah they seem to have aquired some big names, usually not a good thing.
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Hence why I call them the Hormones. They sit on so many top names and seems to try to control the market.
Maybe they'll soon get Trumped when he runs a Donald on the too-big-to-fail corporate neocon establishment, and makes America Great Again ;)
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Yeah they seem to have aquired some big names, usually not a good thing.
If looking at what happened to Lexicon is any indication...
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Yeah they seem to have aquired some big names, usually not a good thing.
If looking at what happened to Lexicon is any indication...
+1
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Boss HR-2
It's a great pedal. I get on well with Boss Harmonizers. Some people don't and have issues with their tracking. I never have though.
I got an Digitech ISP33 recently. Not compact though, but sounds f**king amazing to me! So glad I got it!
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I haven't tried any of the Digitech pedals, but from various postings on the net it seems those tracks very good.
My two TSR-24 19"ers tracks so fast I can't detect any latency, also when used with my 8-stringer. Haven't tried with my bass, though..
No, as said already, I'm keeping my TSR's!
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I think Gerry means the IPS 33. I had one of those when they first came out, back in '88. They track pretty well, but that is a single space rack mount unit. IPS stood for; "Intelligent Pitch Shifter." It had a permanent database of major, minor, diminished 7th, augmented 4th, and 9th scales programmed into it's memory, but I found it limiting. As the name implies, it is a pitch shifter, not a harmonizer. Trying to program harmony lines was kind of tedious, so I sold it after a few months, and bought the Eventide H-3000.
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hmmmmmm interesting. Well I don't know what your definition of harmonizer is then :???: , because the IPS has 59 preset scales which is a lot and the capability of creating user defined scales. That's pretty comprehensive in my opinion. Anything I have ever used before called a harmonizer has this or else at least some of those features, pitch shift on the other hand merely mirrors the input not but at a different pitch.
So if the IPS is not a harmonizer then neither is the Boss PS6 or HR-6 as their somewhat even more basic compared to the IPS.
I only mentioned my IPS as its the same in the same ball park, how ever I did say it was not compact (in reference to the fact it's 1U).
IPS has the same chip in it that the original Digitech whammy had. Some say it was the best one. I can't say that myself as I never tried the whammy. But perhaps the Whammy pedal is something to look at also for a compact solution?
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Hi Gerry,
Yes, there are preset scales in the IPS 33, and there is the capability to put in user defined scales, but I found that process tedious, so I wasn't a big fan of that. The difference between a pitch shifter and a harmonizer is that a pitch shifter keeps a preset interval between the input tone and the output tone(s). A harmonizer can do this also, but it can also provide harmony scales, or individually selectable harmony notes for specified input notes, if desired.
At the time, I was working with a Jazz band that called for some specific harmonies in certain parts of the songs we were doing, and the IPS 33 interface is not as user friendly as the Eventide.
I have a Whammy pedal, but I don't use it very much at all. It's a very touchy effect. It gives you the pitch bend notes alright, but when you return the pedal to it's "0" position, you still have a slight pitch shift effect active, where there shouldn't be anything but your input tones.
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Sure I get you didn't like the programming aspect of the IPS, but
The difference between a pitch shifter and a harmonizer is that a pitch shifter keeps a preset interval between the input tone and the output tone(s). A harmonizer can do this also, but it can also provide harmony scales, or individually selectable harmony notes for specified input notes, if desired.
Yes that's what I mentioned about Pitch shifting in my last post. In regards to the IPS, well this provides a Harmony scales to what is being played. You can select from 59 of them or else transpose your own.
Sure the Eventide may be better/ easier to use / more suited to your taste
but to the best of my understanding the IPS33 IPS33B and DHP33 are Harmonizers.
As for the Whammy, which one do you have? There are many models, 5-6 I think. Some say the latest is the best, some say the original was the best. I have no idea myself never used one and it seems limited. I went for the IPS because it was rack, and not as limited. I think the new whammy has extra capabilty, but I would to think if the "always on" issue was a design flaw, that it would be ironed out by this stage. Either that or your whammy pedal has a fault, always on is not acceptable unless you choose it to be on. I couldn't live with that myself.
I found this also, Harmony man. Looks good, but I'd rather it in a rack :thumb-up:
http://digitech.com/en/products/harmonyman (http://digitech.com/en/products/harmonyman)
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Sorry I misread the ISP vs the Digitech thingies ;)
Couple of comments on my views on harmonizers vs pitch changers..
I've uses harmonizing mostly to enrichen the sound, mostly in a subtle way, or for transforming it to a proverbial 80's synth (which I actually got tired of).
I gave up using pitch transposing, because I'd have to make sure this or that way, related to which key and scale series, had been programmed into a preset useful for that specific song - which I could never remember when actually being about to use it.
I might want to have this again, and as such, think I'd prefer a pedal on the floor, setup to visually guide me as to which button to actually hit.
As such, this would be non-programmable, so I would never have to remember with which presets it's programmed.
Of course, I could do the programming and add it to CC buttons on the floor controller, but this is cumbersome with the TSR-24, as I'd still have to remember adding this programming to every preset, whether needed or not.
You might say pitch pedals with buttons for several pitches doesn't exist, but I'd simply add my own simple selection logic with corresponding buttons to do what the rotary selector does anyways ;)
Another topic is how many different pitches to have available..
I had a chat with a dude from Florida who simply used an A-minor pitch setting, claiming it worked just fine for his short duration usages.
My intended pitch change usage is sortof the same: Only needed fairly short-term, making it sound like two during a short riff.
However, I would indeed need at least a few different ones, just no idea about which to go for. Not a terribly pressing issue at present time, so..
I think something like a minor 3rd, a 5th, a 6th or something, plus of course a octave above, would mostly cover it, but I'm likely in error on this :dunno:
Anyways.. this pitching shizzle is a Bit the same as now wanting a manual wah pedal - because likewise, I always forget programming the MP-2 wah (or I'm using it for something else).
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I believe the one I have is the Whammy II, the red one. I haven't had that out in a long time, so I could be wrong.
Yes, I did explore the harmony scales the IPS had in it's memory, and I recall having to play the input scales exactly correct or it would not give a correct harmony pitch if you played one wrong note.
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Hey RG good score, the IPS33 is a great unit, I only just took mine out of the live rack recently, 1. because I'm not using it much lately, 2. to have in the studio rack.
When pitch shifters first came out, they were very expensive, eventides were the rave but typically only found in studios back then (unless you had lots of $s,,). The ISP33 was the first rack mount "really decent" unit that was still expensive, but allot less than eventides. I paid around $500 for mine which was dealer cost price back in the 80's. As Harley says the interface is a little cumbersome (but in its day it was actually much better than most gadgets around, I found it at least quite intuitive). It has a "distortion loop" to improve tracking so guitar goes into the input, loop send to preamp in, preamp out to loop in. So the raw guitar signal is used to "better" match the pitch (less overtones than distorted signal) and then the pitch shifts applied to distorted preamp signal. I used it like this for a long while (but means you have to plug your guitar into the input which is at the back (not quite as big a deal if you have a tuner in between...). I then changed to feeding it the distorted tone and quite frankly, it tracks just fine. I ran it off Aux send 3 on the desk and returned down 2 channels and mixed in. So it gives you 2 pitch shifts (adjustable up or down) and you tell it what key you are in. I set up a few different banks for different keys (eg E, B, A etc) with bypasses included.
Main limitation is it only goes to (recognises) midi numbers up to 90 (IIRC). But that's handy if you don't want it to change. These days I tend to set it to an octave program (1 up, 1 down), then change to a patch >=100 (so it doesn't change), and use a on/off pedal to bypass it. So I can just turn it on or off whenever.
At one point, I programmed all the harmony lines for DP Highway Star solo, was about 6 or 7 patches IIRC :dunno: . Took me a while :facepalm: . Unfortunately, I couldn't change the patches fast enough via midi foot pedal (foot being the problem LoL). But if you wanted to (and I thought about it at the time) you could do the MIDI prog changes as part of a recording, so you just play, the MIDI track changes the patches..
Anyway enjoy, they are a good unit IMHO.
Hey Harley, I never got around to fiddling with the harmony scales, it's something I thought about recently though now I have it in the studio rack. From a live perspective, I found octave and minor 3rd fairly usable. Hear attached, 2nd solo
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Hey Richard,
Yes, I remember using that one in the Digitech, I use it in the Eventide also. It worked sometimes in the Digitech when the drummer didn't go off on too much improvisation. That's what would blow it. He would improvise during solos I was playing and extend the solo, so I would go modal for a minute to fill in the extra space and the Digitech would go all wonky if I didn't bypass it.
With the Eventide I could step to 4ths and 6ths, or go + and - 700 Cents, then get back to where I was. Program changes are faster in the Eventide.
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Hey Harley, I haven't used an Eventide but I'm sure they are a better unit. The IPS33 is very old but still quite usable and a good score if not too expensive and your requirements not too elaborate. What it does, it does well, in its day it was amazing.
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Hey Richard,
I agree, they are pretty good for what they did back then, and they were introduced around the same time as the H-3000, and meant to be a competitor to it. I bought mine at the Namm show for around $800 USD, which was a little more than half what the Eventide cost back then. At the time, I already had the Digitech DSP 128, and paired the IPS 33 with it, which worked pretty well, (the MIDI program change time not withstanding). IIRC, there was also one other issue I was having with those units too and that was the bandwith they operated on, and they didn't go to 20,000 Khz like the high-end studio processors did. That wouldn't really matter if I were running my effects through a mixing desk, but I was running everything through my guitar rack, and I already had that issue with the ADA S-1000's and Digitizer 4's I was using, and I wouldn't replace them. So I upgraded the Harmonizer and DSP/Reverb effects to Eventide and Lexicon to get back some of what had been lost.
I suppose I could have replaced the ADA Delays and Chorus effects with the TC Electronic 2290 and 1210, but that just cost too much back in the day. Even the Lexicon PCM 42 had a hefty price tag, and they were similar to the S-1000 in the respect that they only gave you one effect at a time. They had an extended delay range, and a early loop function that could be accessed with a footswitch, but they were basically the same as what I already had.
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We're showing our age Harley LoL. Affording anything back then was a struggle. I did the guitar repairs for the music shop that was bringing in lots of cool gear (ADA, Anderson guitars, Boogie amps etc) for a while. I didn't often get to take any of my pay home :facepalm: .
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We're showing our age Harley LoL.
You obviously haven't got a clue as to age..
Sign up to a social forum, and immediately learn the truth about real harmonizing:
"Age is just a number, and distance can be covered" (just pay my tickets)
You've walked the distance; now go realize this thing about age. I turned 59 couple o'weeks ago - still harmonizing.. :lol:
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Cool, I'm not the oldest one here anymore :whoohoo!: . As you say it's just a number, happy birthday BTW :wave:
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@ Richard,
I was playing with two working bands at the time, a hair-metal band, and a funk band and bringing home a decent paycheck every week, so I wasn't doing too bad except everytime I would go into a music store, I'd blow $2000-$3000 at a time.
@ Sinn,
I'm right on your heels as far as age is concerned, but I still do my thing.
"Too old to rock n roll, but too stupid to quit!"
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Ok perhaps I'm not as picky as the rest of you guy's.
@Harley so yeah it goes wonky if you have to start free styling (same as the boss harmonizing effects I've used before so something I know to avoid). I guess that's where that would never happen to me purely because if I was using such a device as my IPS33 I would only use it with designated passages all carefully worked out to begin with. That's just how I write songs, I don't leave much room for improvising as I want my solos etc. to be recognised as identifiable parts of the song. Boring to some (like the dutch band I toured with thought) but not to me and many other guitarists who play their solos in the same way so they are recognisable hooks in the songs.
So yes there I see (IPS33 ) it's disadvantage, but as I said I would never use it in this capacity.
So an Eventide in this capacity will know what to change the scale to then is what you are saying? I see, so it's clever. Even their early units?
I played with a band in the summer and the guy had one of those eventide pedals. Sounded like shit to me. Perhaps it was his tone though, I dunno. My Boss GT5 harmonizer sounded better lol and it's from 1994.
@ Van sinn
I'm not sure what it is you are after then, I have only recommended a few different pedal units to you on this thread. The Digitech IPS33 was only mentioned by myself as I got one recently.
The Digitech whammy is a pedal as are the boss pedals myself and MJMP have mentioned and I found another unit in my last post which is the Digitech harmony man (another pedal and compact - looks good to me).
Another might be one of those electro harmonix pitch fork. Tiny little thing.
@ Richard too right mate, I love the IPS. I am so pleased with it. I think quality wise it sounds great, as for the interface, so far it has not bothered me at all :dunno: perhaps I'm used to complicated boss MFX units which make everything else seem easy to program. I'm going to post my new home rig soon which will feature the unit as a permanent fixture - watch this space. As for the tracking and distortion loop, you are correct, that loop really helps the unit out. I have no experience using it as midi unit though so I can't say I have had that nightmare you had trying to do Highway Star. I can see the IPS only being a studio unit for me. In my live rig which has to b small for travel I'm either sticking with Roland GP100 or Boss GX700, depends.
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Hey Gerry,
The early Eventide harmonizers like the 910, 949, and 969 didn't do complex lines very well, they we much more simplified. The H-3000 was the first that could be programmed to adjust to changes in the middle of a solo.
As for the interface, you could "teach" the IPS33 to do the same things I'm talking about, but the display is limited, and I found myself not coming back to the right point in the editing process to finish the program I was working on. It was tedious to me and time consuming, and at that point in time, I felt like I was spending too much time editing and programming, and not enough time playing and working on the music. The Eventide is much friendlier in this way as I only have to select a soft key in a program I am editing, make the changes in the area I want it, and save it. It wasn't so much about improvising on the fly, as it was about changing the way I would solo in a certain section of a musical passage.
One of the things I found myself getting caught up in back when all this technology became available to guitar players, was how much time I was spending to get the sounds and effects as perfect as I could, and that 's not how I like to work. I'm one of those guys who would prefer to just set it and forget it, and get back to the music. As long as I'm getting a tone from my guitar that gives me goose flesh, then I'm good to go.
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Back in those days I had allot more energy and tolerance for tweaking and programming the various gadgets, these days I just like it to work easily so my fx are relatively simple (generally some mild stereo delay and some reverb). I keep thinking to play around with the IPS33, like whenever I listen to Trevor Rabin.. I've got it in my studio rack in anticipation... But mostly I just start playing and just get lost in that. Like the Diamonds & Gold clean MP2 patch Van posted, I've seen the sun come up a few times just diddling around with that patch and trying to give some of my other guitars a run. The TC MOne has a nice "for guitar" program (del/rev) which I haven't modified and I just mix that in to taste.
My Midiverb4 has got some pitch shifting capabilities (and it's in my live rack), at some point I'll try it out.
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Hey Richard,
I know what you mean. I also have some pitch shifting and harmony effects in my Lexicon units, but I don't bother with them. Maybe one day...
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Hey Harley, I've been thinking to buy a couple of lexicon multi Fx units so I can have it all in the one unit. My quadverb has been a brick but is showings its age sonically, and I've never really explored my midiverb4 (which does sound better/different than the quadverb and has some pitch shift abilities). I have a TC MOne XL in the studio rack, and it puts them both to shame sonically but isn't quite as versatile. I've always loved Lexicon reverb, came home to me when I used an old souncraft spirit powered desk one night which had Lexicon Fx/verb built in, nice :metal: . If behringer ever get a decent Fx chip in their desks... coz it's crap :facepalm: .
So it seems some of the Lexicons can also do decent pitch shifting :dunno: , in which case they would go well in a 4 RU rack with MP2, Lex in loop, poweramp (Mmm B200s) good to go and cover all bases. Anyway that's sort of my thinking and (http://lexiconpro.com/en-US/products/mx300) these look like fun ?
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Hey Richard,
Just a heads up you should be aware of when considering Lexicon rack gear. If this unit you are considering is for a live rack, it might work out for you, but this is one of the Harman issued Lexicon processors. and like all the MX series Lexicons, they only accept MIDI program change commands on MIDI channel 1. The same is true for Alex, Reflex, Jam Man, MX 100, MX110, and so on. All of these units are very shallow and use wall-wart power supplies.
If you are looking at older, high-end Lexicon processors, they will have full MIDI implementation and SYSEX function, but you may find that with most MIDI program change controllers that use a daisy chain MIDI path, that there will be a noticeable lag in program changes. This would include LXP series, MPX series, and PCM series.
This is why I use a Voodoo Labs Ground Control when I incorporate any of these processors in a live rack.
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Hey Harley, thanks my friend, salient thoughts :thumb-up: . My intention for it/them is purely for live rack(s) I'm kind of thinking to split my hybrid bass (MB1) & guit (MP2) rack and work in my new(ish) MP1). So I kind of want one for the bass rig and one for the guitar rig. Do these Harmon versions still sound good ? Or should I look out for an older unit ? (advice appreciated BTW).
Back to the thread, I do want decent pitch sifting in a multi Fx gadget so I can reduce rack space.
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I haven't tried any of the Harman units for pitch shifting, so I can't answer that definitively. But I can say if they include it in the processor, then it's probably a safe bet it should do the job. If you go with the MX unit in your live rig, then you may want to consider a momentary footswitch to bypass the unit when you need the effect out of the way in a hurry. an ADA FS-2 will work for it. It may even have the ability to change effects with a 2nd switch.
The Lexicons I have used the pitch shifting effects with are the MPX-1 and LXP-15 II, and both work really well, and can be modified and stored in memory. They can also be controlled and modified on the fly with footswitches and expression pedals. They're good processors for the price, but the MPX can be a pain to edit at times. The LXP is a good multi-effects processor with awesome Reverbs, and other effects, (it took the place of my Digitech DSP128), and easier to edit and store. I like to use that one with my MP-2.
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Hey Harley, cool, seems I should look out for a LXP then.
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Hey Richard,
They should be pretty affordable by now, and they are pretty user friendly to work with. The manuals are still available for download at the Lexicon archive, but be aware, if you put it in a rack, it's a deep unit. You may need to support the back end of it. That's why I have rear rack rails in my rack case. I use a plain rack shelf underneath the back of those deep effects.
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I also have a MPX-1 and I love the sound but like Harley says, the editing is a big pain in the ass but once you get to know it there's a lot of possibility's. Soundwise these are great units (PCM's are better but more expensive). For me the MPX-1 sounds better then the LXP. Stay a way from those MX units.
The best lexicons are the PCM's but they still go for a lot of money. So a good and not so expensive unit is the MPX-1 IMHO.
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Thanks for the heads up :thumb-up: Found a couple on evil bay (http://www.ebay.com/bhp/lexicon-mpx), the software interface also looks interesting.
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The MPX replaced the LXP basically. The LXP is not bad, but it uses a single processor compared to the dual processors in the MPX, but the MPX is much more transparent because of it The LXP still gives you the kind of reverb we look for in the Lexicon gear though, just all of the effects in there are set to 100% wet, just like in the PCM units, so you have to cut the mix back for use in a guitar rack.
I'm going to eventually upgrade to a PCM 80 to preserve the stereo signal path, so I can place the Lexicon at the end of the chain where I feel it belongs. I believe reverb should be the last thing in the effects chain.