ADA Depot - A Forum To Support Users of ADA Amplification Gear
ADA Preamps => Original MP-1 => Topic started by: gb on May 01, 2017, 10:51:36 PM
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Hi guys
Can someone share with me their mp1 clean setting that works in a band situation. What i thought i had got completely washed out in band situation. Think 80s chorus clean .. i know i know... more mids.. my eq was B 4, M 2, T 2 and presence (cant remember). This was using the clean voicing and gain around half.. not enough to break up as i want that dokken dream warriors intro clean but to cut through the mix
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Hey gb, MikeB has a good MP-1 clean going (not sure what his settings are but I'm sure he'll share :thumb-up: ) It's working well in band context with his LP Classic ("the Mistress").
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Hey gb, MikeB has a good MP-1 clean going (not sure what his settings are but I'm sure he'll share :thumb-up: ) It's working well in band context with his LP Classic ("the Mistress").
Thanks mate appreciate it.
Can i ask if my sound is too 'bright'.. is this treble and presence? ..and if soo by reducing them does that contribute to not cutting through the mix. Or is this really just mids. And is mids on say 8 considered tooo high and 'harsh'.. generally speaking regardless of clean or OD..
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While im on a roll.. why when you introduce chorus on the mp1 (even via effects unit) it drops volume somewhat.. am i missing something. Any other effects is fine..just chorus whether on mp1 direct or via processor..whats the go there
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I'd say trust your ears. If 8 sounds good, use it.
My sound is very bottom-ended, probably because I use midrangy pickups a lot. I have my mids around zero-4 on my MP-1 Classic (Different animal, BTW) all the time, while my bass is around 8-12. My highs are usually no higher than 4. Mids are scooped for some patches...sometimes down to -8.
Of course, it all depends on what amp, what speaker cab, what speakers, and the aforementioned guitar construction you have. I have taken some patch settings from folks here on the Forum and they've sounded fantastic, whereas I have also gotten absolute crap from others. Just depends on the rig & the recipe.
Chorus usually brightens my mix up, sometimes good, sometimes not so much. There may be a patch or two where I get quieter when adding it, but that depends on how high I have the overall mix of that effect (in my rig). YMMV
There are a LOT of guys using MP-1s around here, somebody will chime in with the secret for you.
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Hey gb, Dante has an excellent point. Everyone uses a different rig so what fits for one doesn't necessarily work for another. I have 2 clean/chorus patches maybe you can tweak one to fit your needs. :thumb-up:
Clean 1.
Voice clean tube
Gain 1. 2.6
Gain 2. 2.6
Master 10
Bass 9
Mid. 4
Treb. 9
Pres. 12
Depth 90
Rate .2
Clean 2
Voice. SS
Gain 1. 2.6
Gain 2. 6.5
Master. 10
Bass 4
Mid 10
Treble 12
Pres. 4
Depth. 30
Rate. 1.8
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Thanks for everyones replies guys!!
Totally understand there are plenty factors involved and there is no 1 setting to suit all. i guess i was more after examples of what you guys use live or band situation so i can use that as a base.
I dont understand the relationship between OD1 and OD2 and which is driving what etc..
But is it fair to say you should be able to get a clean setting cut through the band?
Also i noticed in the above patch a master gain of 10!! Would this not mean it would be quite loud compared to other patches. .unless thats the idea..which leads me onto my next question. . Does volume help cut through a mix? Ie i have a clean and a OD patch. .should they both be ..to your ears..same volume?..or would the clean need to be louder so it doesnt get drowned..or is this where EQ is king.
Sorry just trying to understand. Life was simpler when it was 1 patch and 1 sound lol..
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Hey gb, while master on 10 does seem quite loud, Soloist is running quite low gain settings (no doubt to keep it clean) so then needs to turn that up to balance with his other patches. All the variables mentioned make a difference and it's all about getting the right balance. I suggest you adjust you loudest over the top lead patch to the right master and output vol levels to be what you need them to be for your rig and then reference all your other patches with that. eq adds and takes away gain but at specific freq bands. Our ears are more sensitive to mids and upper mids (1khz - 6khz) until the volume is 98db (then the fletcher muchon curves start to reverse). Presence is generally around 5 - 6khz and helps cut through (I use around 2khz for drums). Your eq will probably need to be tweaked a bit to fit with the other instruments (the mix), volume can make you louder than anyone else and thus cut "over" the mix, volume at the right freq (eg presence) will help cut through without necessarily drowning other things out.
OD 1 & 2 control the gain in each tube stage, and each 12AX7 tube has 2 gain stages (twin triode). So you have 4 gain stages, OD1 controls tube 1 and OD2 tube 2 (it's a little more complex but that's the idea.. Driving the next gain stage harder makes more distortion (depending on your levels). IIRC there are some good posts about the MP-1 tube stages. But I think (rule of thumb) OD1 will set you clean through distortion level (mostly) and OD2 then amplifies that (and can add more distortion), and more gain = more volume, and more eq = more volume, so you set the tone and then adjust the overall vol for each patch with its master. It takes a while before you (tweak) get all your master settings balanced to each other and this has to be done at stage volume.
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I understand. Thank you for the detailed responses. Much more clearer now. And i knew alot of this stuff (or worked it out) i guess i needed validation that it is in fact correct.
Good stuff. I ended up increasing the mids a touch more and you could tell at rehearsal. Before i thought i had to increase volume and it was kinda blasting everyone and a little harsh and feedback when muting etc.. but now its much more nicer and not ear bleeding. .also the chorus clea with alot more mids really worked. I really underestimated the power of the mids. Before i didnt know what i needed to do and as you said my balance for everythingeas incorrect. Ok... good... getting there. Falling i love with my mp1 again
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rnolan, great simplified explanation of the gain stages. You are correct on the levels for the clean patch at 10. They are the same volume as my dirty patches where the master on them is at 7 or 7.5. My pickups have a mid bump, plus I also boost my MP1 with an eq pedal mid bump as well. Mids get you heard in the mix. I think gb is on his way to some great tones now that he has a better understanding of mids in the context of a live band situation. Rock on brother! :headbanger:
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I think you guys are touching on a very good bit of advice...when programming your patches, write the clean ones first. They are the limiting factor, because they need more volume to be heard, so you'll need to compensate for that lack of headroom.
I always write my clean solo patches first, then adjust the rest of the patches accordingly. It's not uncommon for my clean solo patch to be maxed out on the master gain, while some grungy patches are running the master around 5.0 - 7.0
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Yes very good advice and thats the bit i wasnt sure.. but makes sense. Appreciate everyones time to respond!!
Now another question. .i had my poweramp 50watt el34 volume maxed out. My ada mp1 overall vol was at about 11 oclock and my patch was the factory preset 1 with more mids. No feeback standing in front of amp in a small rehersal room. I could have used a touch more volume at rehearsal.. so in this scenario i would increase the overall volume of the unit right (the knob at front).. does it seem quite high where it is now.. or again does it just need to be where it needs to be.?
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I run my power amp at about 50%. The output knob on the MP1 is usually between 1:00 - 2:00. However my power amp is 200 watts, and the mixer channel the MP1 is on runs about 10:00 and mixer master vol is at 12:00. This is plenty loud enough but also leaves me more headroom in case I need it. I would up your preamp output and lower the power amp output a little. Just my opinion. :metal:
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Ok cool can do that. So in that scenario when you want more volume or less. .do you then adjust from power amp or mp1? I only ask as id loke to know what's best or common practice..maybe there are more ways than 1..
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I would adjust volume at the preamp output, not at the power amp. :thumb-up:
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I would adjust volume at the preamp output, not at the power amp. :thumb-up:
Ok so my lexicon effects in 4cable method has input and out volumes too..so really what we are saying and please correct me if im wrong. .is perhaps set my mp1 at its loudest overall volume when direct to poweramp. .ans i mean really loud whereby you wouldnt go any louder and if anything youd turn it down... THEN balance the levels in the lexicon to match...THEN control over all rig volume by the output knob on the lexicon considering its the last out of the chain to hit the poweramp.. this way i have my loudest threshold. .almost too loud threshhold and i can adust depnding venue over all volume via lexicon.. i think thats right.. otherwise if im increasing the mo1 volume the lexicon while clip on the input stage i woukd inagine if its not levelled appropriately. ...i will have a play.. i thought id maxd out my power amp but forgot my mp1 is only at 11oclock lol and theres heaps more room to get a little louder..
I will take all the advice on board and have a play
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Just to add the lexicon setup instructions does say play at your loudest .. so now i know how loud that is onbstage i can recalibrate levels to suit but ill give myself some extra head room to go up
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Ok ive setup my 4cable lexicon and np1 with a much louder setting and over all volume. Still sounding good.
Question.. is the send out of the preamp the same level as the output A..eg 4cable method...the lexicon instructions say use the send out from ur amp. Ive always used the output A.. just wondering if there is a difference here.. im also using the input on the front of the mp1 rather than the retuen5..it didnt say in the manual to use return on the amp..just said input. Is there any difference here..?
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Hey gb, as you get a good understanding of all the different levels and gain structure of each unit (as they all have different roles/jobs to play) you then can combine the accordingly. There's a bit of mix and match involved with all the things you mentioned, so you have to understand each one so you can make sensible gain structure decisions about them (this goes with that at Susan's (you'll understand that quip no doubt :facepalm: )).. And your questions and the various answers are helping you get your head around it all :thumb-up: .
The Lexicon instructions re "use send" are based on using standard amp head (predominantly). The send signal is typically line level but can often be set to inst (for stomp pedals) or line. The Lex input can probably handle either level (hence input vol on lex to adjust so it has plenty of level to work with (and thus less noise compared to signal)).
I'm a little confused though, if you run 4 CM (ie chain through Fx to poweramp) then that means Guit > MP-1 input, MP-1 A/B outs > Lex L/R in, Lex L/R out > poweramp L/R in > 2 x cabs (or stereo cab), this is what the 4 cable method is (I call it chain through Fx). So you then balance your MP-1 out level with the Lex input (so plenty of signal at loudest patch but no clip (you DON'T want to clip Lex inputs, digital distortion is not pleasant)). Then as you said, use the Lex output control to drive poweramp. I'd run the Lex out as hi as poss without clipping the poweramp (again better signal to noise) and adjust overall vol with poweramp vols (in this particular set up scenario). An obviously use the wet/dry mix level in the Lex to balance how much Fx you want.
MP-1 Fx send level is adjustable between inst and line via the dual gang reverse level pot, as you turn it up the send level increases and the return level decreases (and vis versa), I'm not a fan of the MP-1 loop, it's hard to get right, it's designed to be usable for inst level stomp boxes OR line level Fx units (mixing and matching stomp boxes and line devices here is NOT a good idea).
MP-1 A/B outs are either inst level (if you have the original top switch version and select it) or line level and also includes the stereo chorus (which is added after the Fx return and where the MP-1 becomes stereo (well pseudo stereo). If you are not running stereo :dunno: , then that may be why you find the level drop slightly with chorus on (and you are missing some of the magic BTW) as half the chorus is going to B (albeit inverted).
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Thanks R
I just remembered why i wasnt using the effects loop from the mp1.. it doesnt work well.. i get volume swells like low signal .. or not at all.. so im using the input on the front and the output on the back.
The lex manual says this.. Guitar -> lex guitar input. Then Lexicon Send to MP1 input and Lex return to MP1 output. (actually it says to use the amp heads send etc.. but i figured this is the same thing with the preamp). Then output from lex unit to power amp.
The lex unit is set to Mono as im only using mono in and outs. .. the volume drop occurrs also on the MP1 using it on its own when you engage chorus so i assumed it was a "chorus" thing? I too thought the whole stereo thing but the unit is set to mono. No biggy.. not a concern right now
We will have to have a chat soon. I appreciate everyones time to help me .. Im such a noob but starting to understand more. I
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Hey gb, I understand where they are coming from with the Lex but IMHO it's not the optimal way to do it (they weren't thinking of MP-1s...). Even if you stay mono (which I seriously encourage you to go stereo >:D ), it's better (with MP-1 and its gain structure) to just chain through the Lex and let the MP-1 do it's thing properly. Putting the MP-1 in the Lex loop (which is kind of what you are doing, like a distortion pedal stomp box) will work, but not as well (particularly re gain structure and there are other reasons).
Please try:- Guit > MP-1 > Lex > amp > cab, even in mono this will sound better :thumb-up: . Use the Lex just as Fx and let the MP-1 do it's stuff and make the cool tones (ie just what it was designed for). And if/when you make this stereo, it will just melt you >:D (no chorus drop no cut through the mix problems just great guitar sounds).
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Hey gb, I understand where they are coming from with the Lex but IMHO it's not the optimal way to do it (they weren't thinking of MP-1s...). Even if you stay mono (which I seriously encourage you to go stereo >:D ), it's better (with MP-1 and its gain structure) to just chain through the Lex and let the MP-1 do it's thing properly. Putting the MP-1 in the Lex loop (which is kind of what you are doing, like a distortion pedal stomp box) will work, but not as well (particularly re gain structure and there are other reasons).
Please try:- Guit > MP-1 > Lex > amp > cab, even in mono this will sound better :thumb-up: . Use the Lex just as Fx and let the MP-1 do it's stuff and make the cool tones (ie just what it was designed for). And if/when you make this stereo, it will just melt you >:D (no chorus drop no cut through the mix problems just great guitar sounds).
yes ive done it this way with my rocktron effects before. the only thing is the lex unit has built in effects that need to be in front of the preamp (like stomp boxes, wah and a few others). I do use the wah ( one less thing to put in the rack or on the floor as its built in. ). I have used it in the way you have said as it has presets specific for this method. It sounds somewhat similar with limitted effects choice due to running in series.
The stereo does sound great but doesnt do me any good when im only mic'd up to 1 speaker on my cab anyway. but i do agree it sounds soo much better with left and right speakers in stereo .. but unfortunately this is for home only.
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Hey gb, while wah is ideally before the gain stages, it still works fine after, MikeB uses the wah in his GMaj2 after (as he runs 4CM) and it works fine :thumb-up: also the stomp boxes will probably be fine after also. You can still run stereo on stage with one mic, just put it in between the cabs and out a bit, not quite as good as 2 mics etc but better than straight mono, and on stage everyone will get the benefit >:D which also washes out into the mix. The less you can do to affect the guitar signal before it hits MP-1 OD1 & 2 the better, and the better they will sound.
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Yeah sorry gb, I wasn't aware you were running an effects processor. In that case rnolan is correct your output level on the processor would be your volume adjustment. You definitely don't want your input signal to clip the processor. I run multiple processors and the last one in the chain is my
output volume adjustment. I run.my G Major 2 in the fx loop of my rack mixer and the wah works just fine from there, but wah's do tend to sound better up front.
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thanks guys. ok might relook into using the cab in stereo and 2 channels. I agree stereo sounds great but didnt think you could mic stage for stereo.
Im ok with the 4cm it works really well and the lexicon has true bypass so direct mp1 to power amp if i wish and after doing some comparisons with the lexicon in both ways .. it really does sound better the way it is .. i do use the built in analog stomp copies sometimes for boost in front fo the mp1 so it works well like this.i think i read somewhere you can change the effects loop to be series or parallel or something anyway not too fussed.
What ive done really is just increase the overall volume knob on the mp1 from 11oclock ish to now 2oclockishh.. and so i use the lexicon output to power amp as my volume control should i want to crank the power amp and leave it where it is. Alternatively i can play with both.. I definately dont have any clipping on the input or output sides (lexicon has meters for both so you can adjust levels).
Had a gig on friday nite (had increased mids on those patches).. i also disabled EQ in the lexicon patch in case it was actually reducing mids and be counter productive.. and the clean channel with chorus etc.. really came through on stage .. was great.. i really underestimated mids at loud volumes with band.
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Cool :whoohoo!: . MP-1 at 2 o'clock should be nice level for the Lex ins :thumb-up: . You can mic stage for stereo or even sort of dual mono, the signal on MP-1 A and B are different, if IIRC B is inverted which gives it the pseudo stereo. Some argue that if the PA isn't stereo, why bother (I disagree), and some argue the PA shouldn't be stereo because of the room and only those in the middle will get the benefit (again I disagree). I always run stereo guitar and PA. If you use 2 mics on the cabs, they don't have to be panned hard L/R in the mix. Moreover, stereo Fx units sound sooo much better in stereo.
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GB - Glad you got it figured out. Always trust your ears with tone adjustments, no matter how bizarre the settings (or routing) may seem. That was a fun little project, now on to other things, like gassing for more gear :banana-skipping-rope-smiley-e
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So let me see if I'm getting this straight, since I'm still new to racks. Adjust the volume on the MP1 to the desired level (I tend to prefer a cranked preamp), then adjust the input on your FX, in my case the MVII, and then the output as your overall desired tone from your cab?
Follow up question; does the output level on the MP1 function like a "channel volume" on a head, or is it always, I don't know, cranked?
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MP-1 output volume sets the overall output from A/B outs, so like an overall master vol. Channel vol on a head is similar to the master vol you assign in each patch. So in essence, each patch is equivalent to separate amp channels, but you have 128 of them instead of just 2 or 3, on the preamp out put level is set by the output volume knob (so always "cranked" to what you set it to).
Assuming Guit > MP-1 > MVII > Amp > Cabs (ie 4CM)
So as you say, the A/B outs feed the Fx input (so you adjust MP-1 vol and Fx input to match). Fx output then feeds the poweramp inputs L/R, so you control overall levels with either the Fx outs or the poweramp vol controls. Driving the poweramp harder (Fx out up) will give better signal to noise/headroom into the poweramp, and then adjust overall cab level with poweramp. In practice though it's probably easiest to turn up the poweramp to where you want it and adjust the Fx outs to suit, either way works...