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Miscellaneous => Discussions => Topic started by: rabidgerry on February 18, 2018, 08:49:50 AM

Title: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on February 18, 2018, 08:49:50 AM
Hi guy's I am starting this topic so anyone with any contributions at all in the realm of combating guitar playing fatigue can share their tips and solutions here.

I have always suffered a bit of this I have to admit, but now it's getting down right ridiculous.

I played two gigs in a row on Friday and Saturday and on Saturday's gig I was gone by about 4 songs and basically had to wing the rest of the show.  My hand loses all strength.  No pain or anything like that, just cannot keep my fingers locked against the fret board.

Now their are contributing factors to this, the night before we stayed with the band we played a show with who basically kept me awake all night long, and then we had to rise early in the morning to drive across Scotland to get a boat back to Ireland for the next show.  I didn't get any sleep on the boat or whilst driving either.  By the time it came to show time on Saturday I was out on my feet.  This is not ideal circumstances.  So as I mentioned earlier, four songs in my hand was gone.

My left hand has really good grip, and because I lift weights I expect my strength to be pretty good.  I think a combination of playing and being super tense just annihilates my hand to the point I can barely fret chords.  I'm always tense at shows and I cannot help it.

If anyone has any advice or tips to help with this please share here for myself and others who might have issues.  Just so it's clear, I don't have pain issues, just lose all power during most gigs at some point, usually near the end of a set, however occasionally I will get early fatigue like last night in a 10 song set.

I found these links here which may help but I want to hear from you guys on this subject.

http://www.300guitars.com/300s-tips/300-tip-preventing-hand-fatigue/ (http://www.300guitars.com/300s-tips/300-tip-preventing-hand-fatigue/)

http://www.300guitars.com/articles/hand-strength-for-guitar-players-eliminating-hand-fatigue/ (http://www.300guitars.com/articles/hand-strength-for-guitar-players-eliminating-hand-fatigue/)
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Samuraipanda on February 18, 2018, 11:57:42 PM
Yeah, I get that too. Sometimes my ring finger just gets weak and I struggle to even make barre chords. I think I've identified one of my problems is holding my god damn smart phone and an Xbox controller too much. I think I'm actually causing muscle stiffness and poor muscle memory. My sister is a physical therapist and she has me stretching my hands and fingers daily with some Bengay cream to loosen the muscles.
Another thing I've been doing I learned from a Joe Satriani interview.... about 10 minutes before you are going to play, run your hands and forearms under hot water in the sink. Do this for about 3-5 minutes.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: tomy on February 19, 2018, 01:16:21 AM
Hi gerry &Sam,

I've broken my shoulder couple month ago. So I had surgery to get my arm "fixed" since then I practice some physical activities to warm up, even if  i didn't get 100 % my fingers back, I'm feeling way better after each gigs . I should have done that before. Most of those exercices are not about  strength but more about stretching and you must do it everyday, and not only on gig day, it takes 15-20 minutes ! I also learned to save efforts as much as i can while playing.

So many peoples have bad experiences, I'm not sure there a good formula

Tomy
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Systematic Chaos on February 19, 2018, 03:04:25 AM
I had something similar, mostly when trying to fret barré chords after 7/8 of any given set.
I also hit the gym on a daily basis, min of 1 1/2 hrs. But seriously, of all body muscle groups addressed throughout the week, finger muscles and tendons get zip attention when lifting weights.
My issue got solved by accident...I bought a guitar with an ever so slight backbow in the neck that I couldn't get rid of with the truss rod. So I thought what the heck and strung it up with a set of 11-50 in standard tuning.
The neck is flat again and the truss rod works...and after 2 weeks of getting accustomed to the higher tension strings (really working out fretting and fingers) the issues are gone. I also wouldn't wanna go back to a lighter gauge.
Try D'Addario 11-50 Balanced Tension (EXL115BT), worked miracles for me
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Dante on February 19, 2018, 07:18:54 AM
Yeah, I get that too. Sometimes my ring finger just gets weak and I struggle to even make barre chords. I think I've identified one of my problems is holding my god damn smart phone and an Xbox controller too much. I think I'm actually causing muscle stiffness and poor muscle memory. My sister is a physical therapist and she has me stretching my hands and fingers daily with some Bengay cream to loosen the muscles.
Another thing I've been doing I learned from a Joe Satriani interview.... about 10 minutes before you are going to play, run your hands and forearms under hot water in the sink. Do this for about 3-5 minutes.

Great advice  :thumb-up:  I thought that hot water trick was just something I did....didn't realize others were doing it too. I started that when riding my motorcycle to work in the winter....I'd go run hot water over my hands before working on the computer.

I use a pen tool and graphic tablet because the constant repetitive motion of the mouse button was too painful - I developed tennis elbow(s). This hurts my forearms very much if I don't stretch first (thought I had carpal tunnel).
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: tomy on February 19, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
oh ! Gerry,  I also forgot... guitar strap is quite important. A confortable one makes a real difference !

So you should choose one that matches your leather trousers  ;D
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: vansinn on February 19, 2018, 11:14:35 AM
Couple of points to tensions..

Stress in life, job-wise, lack of sleep/rest, or in private, like family or financials, can drag a lot of energy off the system.
I've seen ever so often, on myself and others, that when stress do kick-in, many seem to drop their guards WRT proper foods and as such, keeping the correct vitamin and mineral balance, and proper lubrication.
Are you aware that joints and nerves need oils? Salads with cold-pressed virgin olive oil is a must-have.

I read many doing training, but are you doing proper warm up, not just before the training, but also before playing, and are you doing proper flexing/stretching after?

Whatever, there can be many reasons to loosing strength. Acupuncture can be very helpful; I've used it for close to 30 years with good results.

Best of luck with recovery and preventive measures ;)
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: herbyguitar on February 19, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
I rub my forearms and back of hands down with a heat rub about an hour before. I use new strings and spray a 'very' light mist of silicone on the fret board about 20 minutes before. I warm up for 15 minutes by playing stretched scales and chords to get my forearm muscles loosened up. Last, I take a 5 minute break just before playing.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on February 20, 2018, 12:59:33 AM
A lot of good and interesting advice here which I certainly am going to experiment with.

When I started trying to play last night I noticed my left hand was still a little weak from the exhaustion it suffered on Saturday night.  It kinda came too after an hour or so of playing.  I suffer from a circulation condition known as raynaud's syndrome which is particuarly shit in winter as it's colder.  This probably has something to do with struggling to warm up before a show.  Also sometimes I just don't get the opportunity, because there just isn't anywhere to warm up!  Different venues different circumstances and conditons, you never know what you are going to get some times.

As for tension, big stresses in my life, a gig is stressful never mind the other stuff.  But recently went through two interviews to get a new job and thankfully got the job, but who knows, perhaps I haven't recovered yet fully, it was only last Monday after all.

The oils thing, probably a good idea, my joints "click" and crack as it is and I used to take cod liver oil.  I have fish oil supplements I guess I could get back on so that's something I can totally address. 

The hot water thing sounds good, sounds like something crazy I used to do when we played in the garage era stuck out in the freeing cold. I used to do this because of my raynaud's but stopped because my skin would soften on my hand and callus' could potentially break whilst the skin was soft.

Acupunture, I kno someone who had an injury to their foot and was told that they would be on cruches for over a year and have a limp for a while.  Well they went to acupunture and the limp and cruches were history!  I may look into this Van.

SC about the string guage, I see the method to installing heavier guage strings, but I honestly don't think that is the answer for me anyways, that's just going to make it harder to play if I get fatigued.  I get that you are building strength by using heavier strings but, malmsteen doesn't need those 11's and he don't seem to have hand issues  :D
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Rusty on February 20, 2018, 03:47:32 AM
Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI) ?  I had that years ago, It totally wiped out my left hand and arm and finger muscles playing classical guitar without doing any warm up stretches and exercises before lifting the instrument. It took about two months before I was recovered again, I couldn't even hold down the lightest of touch on the fretboard. Gigs, jams, rehersals, lessons etc = all canceled.

I know several players that have had RSI at some point, including piano players, violin players and bass players.

Its an absolute must to do finger and hand stretches warm ups for about 10 minutes away from your instrument especially as you get older,
And yep, cod liver oil is a good supplement.

Good luck RG, hope thats of any help.

 
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Dante on February 20, 2018, 06:45:12 PM
Fish oil does wonders. I eat trail mix, because nuts have a lot of oils too. I give my dog fish oil, maybe I should take a couple shots before work? haha

I never thought about the life stress as a contributing factor, but I was in my worst pain during my worst job. Since that, my pain is not gone, but it's a lot easier to deal with. I think van is spot on (again).

Hot water will not only warm up those finger muscles, it'll increase circulation in your hand (that's why they get red), and loosen up those crusty oils (if any) in those old knuckles. However, I never considered the fact that I could rip up my fingers with soft skin on my hands. I guess you better wait a while before playing and keep your hands in your pockets for warmth ...or forgoe the water and get gloves ;)
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Kim on February 20, 2018, 08:00:14 PM
Interesting points.  I'll definitely look into some ideas myself.

I don't really get fatigued from a long playing period but instead it happens during certain parts of one or two songs.  For instance one of our songs has an outro riff that is repetitive and at half the tempo of the rest of the song (like a "mosh" part I guess you could call it) and about half way through that my primary diad fingers will become very stiff.
         
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Dante on February 20, 2018, 09:07:41 PM
Kim - This is true, some songs will demand a repetitive holding of barre chords for me and eventually, my dang thumb gets a cramp behind the neck, or my finger locks up. It is the weirdest thing, and probably not a fatigue issue at all, just something I am going through. My index finger & sometimes my middle finger, get locked down to the palm of my hand. It's so strange...I've had it happen once or twice while playing guitar, but it really acts like a cramp of sorts.

My dad explained the same thing...check this out; he had surgery to repair it. What was going on? He says the tendons in your forearms...that go all the way across the top of your hands and control your fingers....have these little tubes they travel through. Those tendons develop small burrs (growths) on them as we age, making them get stuck on one side or the other of those tubes or channels. Like a guitar string that has a knot in it, and can't pass over the roller nut easily. (<--how's that guitar analogy?)

Anyway, Dad's all well now. I have avoided surgery so far, but fear it may be in my future. The 'locking up' thing doesn't happen often, but the last time it did, I was very dehydrated. Might have something to do with it.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: vansinn on February 21, 2018, 12:22:03 PM
Yup, dehydration and lack of lubrication. No kiddin'..
Come to think of it.. fat fish, like salmon and herring, is an excellent lubricator.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rnolan on February 21, 2018, 09:47:46 PM
I take a daily does of Cramp Eze Forte (for night cramps says on the box).  It has homeopathic copper, magnesium and rutin which all help release the mussels.  Many body builder types use magnesium (high dose, have to get it over the counter from a pharmacy here) as it is very beneficial getting the tight mussels etc to let go after exercise (Mike B swears by it after a gym session).  I get cramps in my right arm/wrist from the mouse so now I've switched to left handed mousing, took a little while to get used to but relieves my right arm so it's much less a problem now.  Also my spots physio dude showed me a couple of good stretch exercises which also help allot.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on February 22, 2018, 01:05:42 AM
@Rusty,  good to hear from you mate!
It's not RSI although I was having that about 7 years ago from using the mouse at work all day and it was affecting my right hand.  I believe positioning of my seat in work and my arm was key to fixing the issue.  Also stretching etc.  So my issue is literally I lose power, so I can barely form a chord, sometimes it happens worse than other, last week was bad!

Quote
Its an absolute must to do finger and hand stretches warm ups for about 10 minutes away from your instrument especially as you get older,
And yep, cod liver oil is a good supplement.

I believe this is good advice, makes sense.  Not sure how to go about the stretches.  I've a gig in Wales this weekend, gonna try warming up for an hour before the show.

Yup, dehydration and lack of lubrication. No kiddin'..
Come to think of it.. fat fish, like salmon and herring, is an excellent lubricator.

This makes sense!  I have a bag of fish oil caps I aint used in a while and I am back on them with a vengeance!  I take it along with CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid) and Sesamin.

I take a daily does of Cramp Eze Forte (for night cramps says on the box).  It has homeopathic copper, magnesium and rutin which all help release the mussels.  Many body builder types use magnesium (high dose, have to get it over the counter from a pharmacy here) as it is very beneficial getting the tight mussels etc to let go after exercise (Mike B swears by it after a gym session).  I get cramps in my right arm/wrist from the mouse so now I've switched to left handed mousing, took a little while to get used to but relieves my right arm so it's much less a problem now.  Also my spots physio dude showed me a couple of good stretch exercises which also help allot.

This sounds like something I could really benefit from also!  It will help with my weights too in that case if it's a body building thing (not that I'm Lou Ferrigno or anything).

I'm really glad I started this thread, lots of good advice on here.  I guess part of this is getting into the mind set that your hands need maintenance just like any other part of your body.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on February 26, 2018, 03:12:41 AM
So played this weekend and was a lot better on the old fatigue.  It still happened despite having a good long hour playing for a warm up before actual show time.  Nerves kick in for me and I start to feel super weird I observed and I think this actually has an effect on me as well and might contribute to the fatigue.  This week I tried to have as relaxed as possible hands so as not to tense up.  Not an easy thing for me.  Defintiely helped warming up as that allowed me to try and relax a little bit bit still got some chord cramp in a few songs near the end of the set.  I basically know how to cope with it but it's still a situation I would like to neutralize completely.  Whilst watching a thrash band after us I was immediately taken by how weak they played and how minimal their effort was with their hands.  You can tell their playing very light and barely touching the strings (their tone was sh;t BTW).  Unfortunately I cannot play the guitar that way.  I'm much too heavy handed (believe it or not I was a lot worse about 5-6 years ago).

So this is probably going to be a work in progress to get to the point where my hands just give up.  Warming up is one step to helping.  In the old days I guess it was just a few lines of cocaine and away you went!!!
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rickeb1 on February 27, 2018, 06:22:33 AM
Just to throw another thought out there, how low do you wear your guitar when you play?  When I was younger, I thought it looked really cool to have it slung down really low, but doing that also forces you to bend your wrist a lot more, and eventually it started causing problems.  So as I've gotten older, I've tightened up the guitar strap to move the guitar up so there is less bend in my wrist.  Maybe a consideration, hope you find something that works for you!
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on February 27, 2018, 06:46:25 AM
Pretty high actually - see attached

Yeah I hope I get something sorted also. 
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Soloist on February 27, 2018, 07:02:56 AM
I would consider that mid height Gerry. That's about where my axe hangs as well. You want high look at John Lennon early Beatles era. It's like right under his arm pit.
I too get that hand/finger cramping. I have been doing some arm and finger stretches/excerises my physical therapist gave me. They help, I don't get them as often, but still do get them. I just figured it's the nature of the beast, small price to pay for doing what we love. :metal:
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: vansinn on February 27, 2018, 12:44:47 PM
Guys, are you sure your neck profiles actually do match your ergonomics?
I mean, it is indeed a neck may feel very nice, simply because the player loves that guitar, yet still isn't really the best suited..

As an example.. I always had problems with my fretting hand thumb when doing barre's thumb-under style on my Düesenberg, which has a very flat neck, like a predecessor to the Ibanez wizard necks.
I still always loved that guitar, but when obtaining an inexpensive Fillmore V6 Stratcat very soon realized it's classic rounded neck profile simply was a better fit for my hand.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Kim on February 28, 2018, 05:22:05 PM
I tried a few of the suggestions here.  It really seemed to help a lot!

First off, I changed to a slightly thicker gauge strings.  I was using D'Addario EXL145 set (12-16-20-32-42-54) and they were actually beginning to feel a little flabby.  I bought a 7 string set EXL110-7 to try simply because it was available at a local shop.  Not using the 10 string at all, but using the remaining six (13-17-26-36-46-59) resulted in a much tighter sound and actually easier for me to play believe it or not.  Kind of a shame to buy 7 strings just to bin one of them, but I'm after the results and if I order them online from MF the 7 string set actually costs the same as my previous 6 string sets from the local store.  A very slight truss rod and intonation adjustment and it's ace.

Secondly, I adjusted my strap up just a little higher.  That also helped, and combined with holding the neck up a just a little closer to vertical than how I held it previously seemed to make the problems go away.   
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rickeb1 on March 01, 2018, 06:23:27 AM
Really glad you found some solutions, I'm sure it's a big relief!
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: MikeB on March 01, 2018, 12:00:06 PM
Find a good massage therapist and get them to go to town on your forearms. You may be getting adhesions in the connective tissues. A good therapist can break that up. Adequate hydration is important. Water is what keeps the system lubricated which will help to prevent the adhesions in the first place.

Technical note: each layer of muscle tissue (down to individual fibres) is wrapped in fascia,  which is a type of connective tissue, mostly made of collagen.  This stuff covers everything: bones,  muscles,  tendons,  organs etc. It keeps everything separated and is a fundamental part of the structure of the body.   All these layers of fascia have to slide smoothly over each other in order to allow freedom of movement. When they start to get sticky,  you get a problem. The initial restriction will then cause inflammation which makes it worse and then leads to other restrictions down the line. And so on and so on...
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Chucky on April 17, 2018, 12:15:01 PM
Would you say you clench down hard when you are playing?
Because you say also that you are very tense before/while doing shows.
You may just wear your strength away by pressing too hard, which is a quite common mistake to do.

To fight this you can play exercices or whatever you play without using your thumb at all.
It feels really weird and tricky at first, but as you keep doing it, you get better control over your fingers.
The idea is not necessarily to play fast, but rather to feel in control.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on April 17, 2018, 01:25:36 PM
Would you say you clench down hard when you are playing?
Because you say also that you are very tense before/while doing shows.
You may just wear your strength away by pressing too hard, which is a quite common mistake to do.

To fight this you can play exercices or whatever you play without using your thumb at all.
It feels really weird and tricky at first, but as you keep doing it, you get better control over your fingers.
The idea is not necessarily to play fast, but rather to feel in control.

Yes I would say I do that, like death grip.  And yes I reckon this is a problem not helping my fatiguing issue.  I shall give your suggestion a go man, thanks for that tip.  It's so hard not to though, particularly when you are trying to play as aggressively and as energetically as possible.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Chip Roberts on April 17, 2018, 05:47:47 PM
Here I was thinking I was the only one with trouble; my hands have hurt for three months!  I've been to acupuncture, herbalist, massage therapy, chiropractor, occupational therapy, just about everything under the sun!  The most recent OT I've been to said my nerves are jacked up from a lifetime of poor posture and extreme weight loss in 2013, so she's been giving me some stretches and exercises which I THINK help.

Here are a few things that have helped me so far (pain is chronic, but to varying degrees):

Acupuncture - This won't be a one-time fix, but after 3 or 4 sessions on a weekly basis I found it easier to cope.
Moxa smoke - Go to your local Chinatown and see if you can find an herbalist to do this for you; it's basically an herbal blend that they burn and then put close to your skin to relax the tendons and muscles.  Expensive, but effective.
Chiropractor - They'll be able to get you aligned, which will help with your overall posture to mitigate doing/holding things incorrectly.
De Graston/gua sha - This can be done by a chiropractor or physical therapist.  They take a rounded metal bar and essentially scrape it across your problem area.  Hurts like Hell, but it breaks up any adhesions that might form; leaves a gnarly bruise for a couple of days.

Things to be careful about:

Make sure you consult a licensed medical professional before getting a deep tissue massage, as certain areas can become aggravated and actually make you feel worse.  Cupping is helpful when done by somebody who knows what they're doing (again, a traditional Chinese herbalist would know).  My herbalist gave me a massage, cupping, and moxa treatment and I felt like $100 for about 4-5 days.  I went to a different gal who gave me a deep tissue massage and cupping and the pain was excruciating.

Additionally, I got a guy, I suppose you could call him a kinesiologist, who comes and moves some stuff around, messes with my carpal bones to align them properly, then I'm good for about a week, but again, very expensive.

A lot of you guys are across the pond or down under, where healthcare is way better than here in the States, so hopefully you can get help easier than me.  :dunno:  Just remember that everybody's body is different so certain methods may work for you that don't work for others.  I really f*cked up my body when I got an eating disorder.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: herbyguitar on April 17, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
It's called getting older. Nothing is going to cure you. I'm sorry, but you're stuck with an aging body and all the symptoms of it. It's a totally natural process and the only way around it is to push through it and do the best you can with what you've got. Pay attention to other high end musicians that are getting up in years and you'll notice something profound. They all suffer from the same atrophy. It's normal. I notice the same thing. I used to be able to play at lightning speed and with great accuracy. Not so much anymore. I have to work a lot harder now to produce the same results that I did 20 years ago. It's normal...
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on April 18, 2018, 02:23:56 AM
It's called getting older. Nothing is going to cure you. I'm sorry, but you're stuck with an aging body and all the symptoms of it. It's a totally natural process and the only way around it is to push through it and do the best you can with what you've got. Pay attention to other high end musicians that are getting up in years and you'll notice something profound. They all suffer from the same atrophy. It's normal. I notice the same thing. I used to be able to play at lightning speed and with great accuracy. Not so much anymore. I have to work a lot harder now to produce the same results that I did 20 years ago. It's normal...

This isn't quite my issue.  My problem is definitely gripping too hard and then tiring my band from doing so.  Nothing to do with age at all, I'm 35 and I'm much better at playing the guitar that I ever was.  It's always been a bit of a problem for me this fatigue thing.  I need to learn to stay loose.  I have the strength in bucket fulls, I just have death grip on my neck and this definitely is my issue.  I know limbering up is the key, all the advice for warming up given by folks on here is definitely good advice for my issue.  I also need to mentally remember to try and stay loose.  I just struggle to do this because I tense up before show and I can be a bit like that in general, just a stiff white guy  :lol:

I'll beat this issue I have I'm sure.  I also know I need to look after myself better on the road.  Sometimes nerves will kick in for a show and I'll defer eating until after I've played, this obviously dehydrates me and reduces energy etc.  I need to get into better habits.

The age thing may be an issue for me in the future or other guy's on here I'm sure, but I guess there are ways to deal with that as well!
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: MarshallJMP on April 18, 2018, 05:46:58 AM
It's called getting older. Nothing is going to cure you. I'm sorry, but you're stuck with an aging body and all the symptoms of it. It's a totally natural process and the only way around it is to push through it and do the best you can with what you've got. Pay attention to other high end musicians that are getting up in years and you'll notice something profound. They all suffer from the same atrophy. It's normal. I notice the same thing. I used to be able to play at lightning speed and with great accuracy. Not so much anymore. I have to work a lot harder now to produce the same results that I did 20 years ago. It's normal...

Well I can relate to that  ;D
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: herbyguitar on April 18, 2018, 07:26:40 AM
Well. Getting older does have a bearing on playability but when I was younger, and even today when I play, I always get myself a 1/2 shot of JacK Daniels (anything will work) just before warmup and about 15 minutes before going on. I find it relaxes me and takes the nervous edge off but doesn't hinder playing. Nervousness is a lot more detrimental to my playing than a sip of whiskey...
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: vansinn on April 19, 2018, 03:23:07 AM
Yeah, sure, there's this thing about getting so-called older; however, much of that can be (partially) eliminated by studying how our organism really works, what's required in terms of maintenance and nutrition.

Back @RG: Could it be that
* your neck profile doesn't fit your hand
* your guitar has a slight neck dive
If it's the balance, light weight tuners can help, as can replacing the single strap knob on the body-end with two, using the left-most for the strap, as this moves the balancing point.
Or maybe your hard grip is simply a build-in habit, in need of methodical reworking..
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rnolan on April 19, 2018, 03:32:40 AM
Hey RG, well I'm 58 and playing better than ever (though Mike could probably comment on that as he's witnessed my playing over many years).  As you say there's lots of good tips in this topic and I'll add some at some point though I need to make a video of it rather than try and "word" it.  But key IMHO is controlling that grip.  It's essential that you only ever use "just" enough or the right amount of pressure to achieve each note/chord/energy and be really economical with how you play. Don't let your fingers go too far from the strings when not in use (ie lightly rest them on the notes in the position your in so all you have to do is press the note down, how hard you press should be commensurate with the energy you need in that note).  This also applies to how hard you grip the pick, the note(s) you play are a combination of how you pick, how you fret and the energy you want in that note/chord etc.  Of course all enhanced (or otherwise) by your rig/sound/tone.  BTW playing a bit of acoustic guitar really helps your note dynamics and builds finger strength.

@ herbyguitar, I generally like to have a good triple Tequila  (I've found that Siera Tequila (the one with the Mexican red hat works for me, it has a great energy that make me want to play).  I've also found that cheap shitty whiskey brings me down  :facepalm: so I avoid it.
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Kim on April 19, 2018, 04:40:36 PM
I used to keep my action a bit higher than normal because of my inherit "heavy-handness" but I've been gradually adjusting it down lower over the last year or so.  Now it has that "butter" feel which I am appreciating more and so I've been making a conscious effort to play with a lighter touch and some more finesse.  I find that when my fingers start to fatigue, it's mostly because I'm squeezing too hard so I remember to lighten up some.

But it's not because I lack the initial finger strength; I probably have more strength that what my joints can manage because I've been working in the steel-related business for about 25 years now, (with temporary pauses over those years to do electrician and factory maintenance/tech work) and if I'm honest I'm running out of parts of my body that don't hurt!   
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on April 23, 2018, 11:46:59 AM
I used to keep my action a bit higher than normal because of my inherit "heavy-handness" but I've been gradually adjusting it down lower over the last year or so.  Now it has that "butter" feel which I am appreciating more and so I've been making a conscious effort to play with a lighter touch and some more finesse.  I find that when my fingers start to fatigue, it's mostly because I'm squeezing too hard so I remember to lighten up some.

Man this is where I am at!  I think my action is higher than many others.  I cannot tolerate buzz.  But it's brutal on your hands and I obviously cannot handle it very well hence the fatigue issues I get.

I can't control the f**king power when I'm playing live, too much nervous energy.  Also I fear sustain death if I don't strike the string hard enough.  So I tend to have slightly higher action than most metal players anyway.  I have often wondered over the years though if this has actually hindered my progression as well???????  Probably.

So tell me how you strike big power chords lightly?  And how much rattle is too much rattle?  When do you know it's too low, too high, just the right amount and how much power you can use?
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Systematic Chaos on April 23, 2018, 06:37:35 PM
The definition of high or low action is/can be very subjective.
e.g. check out Ola Englund's vid on setting string height and action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8GjqNi8Nio

I think he sets his low E ~1.8mm at the 12th fret. Low enough for Ola and hes likes it this way/fits his playing style.

I have the low E at ~1.2mm (12th) and the high e at ~0.8-1mm (12th) on my guitars....but that's what works for me
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/MagnusBausW/2C587E68-4F16-47B1-A28B-464C3608065B_zpss3o6ebo9.jpg)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/MagnusBausW/8FC6CD60-D145-44B7-8BA9-FE0A71BB7683_zpseg9agreb.jpg)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af41/MagnusBausW/49B78137-19FA-42EE-8427-01692B54F11D_zpssnmqgf0a.jpg)

Truth is though, my low string height without buzz/rattle is a the result of a combination of (imho important) things.
Fist and foremost (and that gets you 85% there) is a totally perfect fret level/dress. Take your most favorite guitar to a luthier and let him do a fret job - you'll be surprised! (I was and all my guitars either got complete new frets or had their frets dressed/levelled and polished).
After the fret dress/level I could relly set my neck almost straight.
I play 11-50 (D'Addario Balanced Tension) in Standard E tuning. The polished frets make them feel like 10s when bending (EVO Gold or Stainless Steel frets even more so). The thicker/heaver strings don't oscillate as much as thinner strings (lower action; straighter neck).
I use fairly thick/stiff picks (Dunlop Jazz III 2.0, Dunlop Ultex Jazz III, Gravity Sunrise Mini 1.5 or 2mm) which helped my right hand dynamics. I can riff through Holy Wars or hit big open chords with humogeous sound and sustain and NO buzz.
Important: this is just my subjective approach (YMMV) but it definitely gives me a relaxed und uber-comfy playing experience and a huge left-hand comfort.   

At the end of the day: You WILL sound best with the setup/strings/pickups/amp/gain settings/cab/...... that you FEEL most comfortable on. If it feels comfy/good = I play [positive adjective]. Otherwise: Shit in -> Shit out
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: Dante on April 23, 2018, 08:45:20 PM
I used to keep my action a bit higher than normal because of my inherit "heavy-handness" but I've been gradually adjusting it down lower over the last year or so.  Now it has that "butter" feel which I am appreciating more and so I've been making a conscious effort to play with a lighter touch and some more finesse.  I find that when my fingers start to fatigue, it's mostly because I'm squeezing too hard so I remember to lighten up some.

Man this is where I am at!  I think my action is higher than many others.  I cannot tolerate buzz.  But it's brutal on your hands and I obviously cannot handle it very well hence the fatigue issues I get.

I can't control the f**king power when I'm playing live, too much nervous energy.  Also I fear sustain death if I don't strike the string hard enough.  So I tend to have slightly higher action than most metal players anyway.  I have often wondered over the years though if this has actually hindered my progression as well???????  Probably.

So tell me how you strike big power chords lightly?  And how much rattle is too much rattle?  When do you know it's too low, too high, just the right amount and how much power you can use?

 :lol: :lol:

I love you Gerry, you kill me. I too keep my action kinda high and keep running into other guys that say I run "big" strings (.010 on the bottom). Whatever, I still have a couple guitars that play like BUTTER and some that don't. The higher action makes you stronger, but never overdo it...take a break if you're sore, don't try to power through muscle strain. I only practice with the guitars that have the BIG action and gig with the ones that play like butter. It works for me. I try to keep the action as low as I can, but I just settle with the buzz being gone and deal with what I got.

Now, as to your picking attack (aka, how hard you bang the f***king strings), I like a low gain tone that will get dirty with 'pressure' of banging the f**k out of the strangs. I use medium-to-high gain pickups and turn the gain on my rig as low as I can stand it. You'd be surprised how good you sound when you pick softly on a 'gainy' patch without all that volume-knob fiddling around, and how little gain you really need to sound awesome.

This works for me, your mileage may vary (YMMV). Of course, I am in perfect physical shape...round is a shape  :wave:
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rabidgerry on April 24, 2018, 05:40:47 AM
@SC I'll check out that video and may be try revise my own set ups.

@Dante, yes I have a way with words sometimes  :lol:  On the gain situation, I bump it up until I feel a certain depth is obtained.  It's less than I used to have it set.  Also my playing is a lot of legato, and I actually need a certain amount of gain to play the way I do successfully.  However perhaps with higher action I find I need more gain to be able to do the legato otherwise it's just to stiff feeling to pull it off.  Legato was my way around speed picking I guess.  I'm getting better at the picking though, but I like that I do it all legato sometimes, it makes me, me!
Title: Re: Guitar Playing Fatigue
Post by: rnolan on April 25, 2018, 01:18:43 AM
Apart from SCs wise words regarding fret level, the place to start with a setup (before going anywhere near the action/string heights) is to get your neck relief right (for you).  Like SC I like a very flat neck.  To check your neck relief, with the guitar at pitch, on bottom E (and later top E) press down the first fret and also the fret the neck joins the body (probably 16th on a squire, 12th on a classical).  This forms a straight edge (bottom of the string) over the frets.  Rule of thumb is you need about a business card gap above 5th, 7th, 9th frets.  But business cards vary in thickness and neck relief is a very subjective and personal thing.  But you do need some relief as strings spin when you pluck them. Adjust the truss rod in small increments (tighten to reduce relief, loosen to increase) and retune and check again in between each adjustments.
Once your happy with the relief you can adjust the action height. I stopped bothering to measure it years ago, I adjust the height down until it buzzes then raise it until the buzz is tolerable (I don't mind a little buzz, you don't hear it (but each to their own)). Now this process (for me) takes a while of tooing and frowing, retuning in between, making sure notes aren't buzzing out and sustain appropriately. It takes longer on a strat bridge as you do each string individually.  Once that's done I play it a bit and adjust the top strings (if required) so they feel right under my fingers (eg I may raise the top E a little so it feels right transitioning from the B).  Then I do the intonation (repeated retunes as required) and check it all again, the intonation adjustment changes the action height.  Then I let the guitar settle for a while and check it all again, and also after a week I've found the instrument settles some more and then it gets the final adjustment.
I play quite hard with stiff picks (Dunlop tortex purple) I don't want the pick to flex.  I use 10 - 46 DR tight wounds on most guitars, 11 - 52 sometimes on a shorter (= less string tension) Gibson scale length, particularly for dropped D tuning.  I find I can belt chords as hard as I what (and I do  >:D ) without buzz.  I can't use lighter string gauges than 10 - 46 as the chords go out of tune when I belt them and the notes have less body.